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  1. #1
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    Apr 1999
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    Default Ron Moore Challenge with a RES-Q-JACK twist

    Wow! It appears that stabilization is in season here. Here's something a little different. Before reading on, this may get a little technical and turn some stomachs, but its really quite simple and enjoyable (to me anyway).

    Here's Ron's challenge from another topic:
    A Posting From Ron Moore, Forum Moderator
    If you are training on the challenges of a vehicle on its edge, add this to the drill.

    Once stabilized, the scenario is that a person was ejected and is now trapped under the lower door. On the low side, at the point of door contact with the ground, raise the vehicle 8 inches!
    Ron, I thank you for this wonderful scenario! Knowing the equipment you use, I'm sure you've performed this operation.

    I would like to add a few more constraints to the problem: Ground is too rough for stand bases to slide. You have no lift bags or hydraulics available on scene. No tow truck available. A smooth lift with no jumping is desired so don't use a farm jack.

    So that other buttress equipment on the market and our Res-Q-Jack Ratchet Stands have a chance at this, let's neglect the rough ground for a moment so the bases can slide.

    Let's assume we are working with 6'(72")long stands. They may be fixed length timber, or adjustable telescopic tubing pinned at this length. The stand length (SL) and stand angle (SA) along with simple trigonometric functions give us the purchase point height (PH) and the base distance from the car (BD).

    For SA=50 degrees, we get PH=55" and BD=46"

    For SA=60 degrees, we get PH=62" and BD=36"

    For SA=70 degrees, we get PH=68" and BD=25"

    Now we want to lift the vehicle by 8 inches. Assuming we could pull our bases toward the vehicle to accomplish our lift our purchase with the vehicle remains intact, so our purchase height (PH) increases by 8". We now have new values for PH which is one leg of our right triangle, and we have a fixed length stand of 72" which is the hypotenuse of the triangle. We can now back out our new stand angle (SA) and our new base distance (BD).

    For the stand originally at SA=50 degrees: The new PH=55+8=63". This gives a new SA=61 degrees, and a new BD=35".

    For the stand originally at SA=60 degrees: The new PH=62+8=70". This gives a new SA=76 degrees, and a new BD=17".

    For the stand originally at SA=70 degrees: The new PH=68+8=76". WAIT! our stand is only 72" long - TOO SHORT! We can't reach even standing straight up and down. We need to lengthen our stand, but this is not possible under load with a fixed length strut.

    In addition, look how much base distance (BD) or "footprint" decreases as the bases slide in. Now throw in the rough ground that won't allow the bases to slide.

    So how can we avoid such difficulty? Use the Res-Q-Jack equipment. The Res-Q-Jack Jack Stands do just what we want here. They adjust under load with 12" of travel and you keep your wide "footprint" because your bases stay put! For such a scenario, the best bet would be the Coral Gables Competition Kit put together by Chief Neal Dejesus for maximum utility. This package consists of (3) RJ3 Res-Q-Jack Jack Stands. You need a minimum of 3 stands for your basic side-resting car, regardless of product used. This gives a lift capacity of about 12,000 pounds with a static load capacity of about 21,000 pounds.

    With the right tools in place the stand originally at SA=50 degrees is now at a PH of 63" with a new SA=54 degrees (only 4 degrees steeper), and the same BD=46" (unchanged!).

    The stand originally at SA=60 degrees is now at a PH of 70" with a new SA=63 degrees (only 3 degrees steeper), and the same BD=36" (unchanged!).

    The stand originally at SA=70 degrees is now at a PH of 76" (which was previously too high) with a new SA=72 degrees (only 2 degrees steeper), and the same BD=25" (unchanged!).

    This is awesome! We keep our original base distance from the vehicle (maintain our footprint), get our 8" lift, barely alter our stand angle, and we did it in a smooth manner without "jumping" jacks. The only downside is that it would take at least 5 minutes to get the tools off the tarp and complete the operation w/ a 3-man team. The Coral Gables Team may be able to pull it off a little quicker?

    My response to a comment in advance: Of course I would lift the car. I've trained with the equipment and know it. Should you lift with it? The answer to this is the same as the answer to: have you trained with it, do you know the equipment? Take note that I would follow up with wedges, inverted step blocks, or similar.

    p.s. For all those wondering, our web design team estimates our new site listing a ton of new products (at least the ones ready for market) and stabilization info will be up by early next week, so keep an eye on RES-Q-JACK - your one stop for stabilization

    [ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: cp-ny ]

    [ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: cp-ny ]


  2. #2
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    Glen Rock, Pa
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    Default

    My first responce has to be like everyone elses .... Huhh? Cris, you went a long way just to describe the evalution that I already have 7 pictures of from well over a year ago. You may be proud of your Coral Gables team, but there are others. Ever hear of "Brighton" They won 5 overall titles including the international in the same year and are still adding to their trophy cabinet. And they exclusively use Zmag Ground Pads. As a matter of fact last year 33 out of 38 trophies went to "Blue" teams in regional comps. I kinda hated to bring this up but some of the commercial ranting here is getting a bit old. Ask Wally to see the photos using 4 Ground Pads to do exactly what you just spent 20 minutes typing. O, and by the way he did it with under $600.00 worth of equipment. One smooth, continous, rock solid lift. Lets try to get this board back to an information forum and keep the advertisements on the websites.
    Zmag

  3. #3
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    Dec 1999
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    Upstate NY
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    Default

    -->> sitting just trying to figure out what the heck all that meant......

    Damn I knew I should have paid more attention to math....

    So if ...... never mind


  4. #4
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    Hythe, Alberta, Canada
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    Default

    Lets ad one more constraint to the problem. Lets say all of the rescuers and the patient were also looking for a bank that offered great mortgage rates and top notch customer service. But lets also say that every bank in the world was not available except mine. Once you compare my service and abilities to the rest, you will see my advantages. Once you see that all the other banks are unavailable, you will see that my bank is the only logical choice. Do the math, bring your mortgage to my bank.

    Wow, I did not realize how easy it was to sell your product in this forum under the disguise of a scenario.

    Look for next weeks posting where I will show you how my mutual fund returns will disconnect that battery in no time.



  5. #5
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    Mar 2001
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    Clinton New Jersey
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    Default

    Hmmmmmm............
    Gee, a new reason to carry my PDA on rescue jobs.....

    Be dynamic..or go home!

  6. #6
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    Fallon/Churchill Fire Dept.
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    Default

    Been a while since I've posted but yikes.

    Cris I hope you have these numbers memorized because....well yikes whos got time.

    A. We don't advertise using buttress systems for lifting, we all know it is possible but should consider as last resort.

    B. With the scenario Ron was asking about you simply extend the units out to the full 101" and bind the strap between the two opposing units and chase the car up as the lift bags are deployed. If you have practiced this you will end up at around 45 degrees at the top of your lift.

    C. NEVER allow the full weight of the vehicle to be tranfered to the buttress system unless vehicle is secured both front and back, ie tied off to a rescue unit at front and rear. If you dont the rolling pancake effect is not a good thought,

    D. Use your heads out there and these tools can work wonders.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
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    Default

    if you find this thread interesting Do check out the thread o this bulletin board about the Res-Q-jack. No one is as blind as a person that will not see
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

  8. #8
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Jun 2001
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    Bridgton,Me USA
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    Default

    Well now I'm confused!You mean all the years I've done this with air bags,I can't do this anymore?Real life; when is the last time you had to lift a car 8" or more to free a victim?I don't say it doesn't happen,I asked when was the last time you had to do it?Both times that I have personally done it I think the lift was more like 6".Good thing I visit here often,I'm beginning to wonder if I can still feed myself.VBG T.C.

  9. #9
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    Default

    I just had to add this comment, I do trust all of us have at least two or three or more ways to do any rescue evolution. I fully support The Carbusters concept of using the "100%" technique as your first choice. but we all know (Including Steve and John) Nothing in our business is 100% they point out in there book that the 100% technique is the ONE with the best chance of success. NOW I have to add this here is in NO WAY to endorse any single product mentioned on ANY of the Bulletin Boards here at the FIREHOUSE FORUMS as the ONLY way to go. Quite the contrary, Check out all your Options, decide what YOU can accomplish in the Safest, Fastest, least complicated way, Couple that with what will be most likely to produce success and go with that.

    BTW - alway read the literature that you get from ANY manufacturer very carefully. At a recent show, I saw someone being quoted about how only "a certain tool" could do the Job! Come on, any of a slew of similar tools could and would have done the Job. Just check out the quotes before you take them at face value
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

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