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    Default Extrication Gloves

    I noticed a post on the Firefighters forum where someone mentions how much they like the Ringers Extrication Gloves. I was curious about how you all feel about this type of glove. I applaud the concept, but I have a real concern with the fact that these gloves are not fire rated. While we don't generally have to put out fires while performing extrications, if one were to occur it would likely be a flash fire which would not give you time to switch gloves before your extrication gloves melted on your hands. I have considered trying a pair of race car driver gloves which are fire rated, but they are not made to take the wear and tear we encounter on an extrication scene. Perhaps if we can get someone's attention, we can have them make an extrication glove that is fire rated.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    I'm thinking that by the time you get "extrication" gloves made thick enough to be fire rated, you've just created another pair of fire gloves - too thick and bulky for use in extrication.
    Our dept SOG calls for a FF in full TOG and SCBA on a charged hoseline during extrication of entrapped patients. If the car catches on fire, I'm gonna get out of the way and let them put the fire out. If memory serves me, I recall that less than 1% of crashes involve fire. All but one of the crashes that I've been to that have involved fire were fatal crashes well involved upon our arrival. There was one that did catch after we were there, but was quickly dealt with by an alert crew with a PW can.

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    I'm curious, is there anyone out there who has had an extrication in which the car caught on fire during the extrication? And if it did, was there something that perhaps alerted you to this potential danger?

    My point is that this is so rare, but yet everyone makes it out to be a true immediate danger. Not to diminish the need for a charged hoseline, just some rambling thoughts from me....

    We have a charged hoseline as soon as possible into the event. But then that is easy when we send between 14 and 18 Firefighters on the initial entrapment response (depending on staffing)

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    Check out www.mechanix.com then click on fire and rescue, then click for the M-16 glove, this is similar to the ringers except it is made with nomex.

    When Ringers first came out, I believe they had a glove called over the wall, it was made with nomex, but also had the kevlar reinforcements, I checked their website and it is not listed any longer.

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    I suppose the cost to make gloves out of kevlar has kept them from being developed. If they could get the costs down, kevlar would be the obvious material to make a sturdy, fire resistant, extrication glove. I will have to look into the nomex ones to see how well they compare to my driver's gloves.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    Another area of concern that no one has mentioned is that of exposure to blood\body fluids as the gloves have no blood borne pathogen ratings. Ringers tells you on the box you must wear rubber gloves under the extrication to protect yourself.

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    I have been handling a 100% Kevlar glove for about 3 years. In realality it is an industrial glove but has excellant dextarity and flexability. The palm side of the glove is hot dipped in PVC so it grips well in all weather and field conditions. I have a few extrication teams that are getting 2 years worth of wear out of them. Not saying that they are bullet proof, but they are holding up really well. While it is NOT a fire rated glove I can show you a pair that was involved in a flashover during a training fire. They were being worn by the company photographer who just could not operate his equipment with conventional fire gloves on. His helmet and camera was trashed but the gloves survived well. I don't reccomend they be used as a fire glove, but its nice to know that for that once in a million auto ex becoming a car fire that you have some degree of protection. You can see the glove on my website at www.zmagrescue.com or send me an email.
    Zmag

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    Risk of fire, should be dealt with during the Scene and Vehicle Stabilization before putting rescuers in jeopardy. There are many good extrication gloves on the market that don't make you feel you are wearing boxing gloves when doing delicate work.

    Mike

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    Originally posted by mike mcnamara:
    <STRONG>Risk of fire, should be dealt with during the Scene and Vehicle Stabilization before putting rescuers in jeopardyMike</STRONG>
    This is obviously the common sense approach. Unfortunately, things can and will change when you go about tearing apart an automobile. We have discussed on another string such things as unusual fuel line placements. And I have experienced a "one-in-a-million" fire that occurred while working a rescue where there was a failure of the fuel tank, dumping gasoline into standing water in a ditch below the car that was ignited by the catalytic converter.

    This happened while we were stabalizing the vehicle and before a hose line was charged. But even if a charged line were in place, there was potential for rescuers to be threatened by the fire before it was extinguished. With that one in mind, I have ordered a pair of the Mechanix M-16s to see how I like them. I see that they have a new Rescue glove on their webpage, but it is not clear in the description if this is a fire rated glove.

    [ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: MetalMedic ]
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    There are many concerns over "Rescue" gloves. Once you have weeded through them you should be made aware that there are several manufacturers out there that offer comparible products to Ringers that are different and sometimes may benefit your purpose more than the other. Shelby makes a glove that is like a ringers, but somewhat thicker and more protective, and a company called occunomex also make a glove very similar to ringer. They all have pros and cons, but first decide if you want to wear them.

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    There is always going to be a fear of fire at any accident. Proper hoseline protection should be in place just in case. I use a pair of Ringers short cuff and have not had any problem with wear and tear. We have a policy to use latex gloves under our extrication gloves. In my own infinate wisdom (yeah right), I tried the "flash fire test". It got real warm, but for a quick instance, they held up pretty well. No melting. They won't hold up in a long test. Just food for thought.

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    Ok, show of hands here. And be honest because I'm watching. Raise your hand if you ALWAYS wear your gloves ALL the time at ALL mvas. Raise your hand if you NEVER have taken your glove off to perform a task that was next to impossable to do with the modified boxing gloves we wear known as "Fire Gloves". BE HONEST .... Raise your hand if you have NEVER gone to a wreck and seen a perfectly good pair of fire gloves laying on the hood of the car that was being worked on or on the grond next to the power unit. Been there, done that, caught hell for it. Lets face it guys, the best glove in the world is zero protection if it is not properly worn, and the jobs that need done many times are not glove-wearer friendly. My suggestion (for what its worth) is to find a glove that fits well, works well, that you WILL wear and keep on and offers the maximun protection in relation to bulk. I don't care if its ringers, shelby, mine, or home depot. Anybody ever see the film of the firefighter that got caught on the ladder tip in a fireball? There was clearly an imprint of his suspenders on his scourched back. Think about it, if elastic suspenders even offer the slightest protection in the middle of a fireball, I'm thinking ANY glove is better then NO glove for our applications.

    Zmag

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    I dig mil-spec flight gloves. Nomex, fit nice, great dexterity, and fairly cheap. Little bit of a durability issue, but I think only from abuse. Like zmag said, fire rated or not, something is better than nothing. If something gets out of hand, let the handline that is ALWAYS pulled get in there...
    If we're worried about the potential need for fire rated gloves, we're packed up and on air right????
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

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    I agree that something is better than nothing. And I am also guilty of taking off the gloves so that I can perform some intiricate task (which is why I prefer gauntlet gloves for extrication). My point was that if you could make a glove that would handle the abuse of extrication that also had a proper fire rating, it would more likely be there if and when you needed it. While anything is better than nothing, my concern would be that if I were wearing something that did not have an NFPA approval and I were to be injured, would our Bureau of Workers' Compensation refuse my claim because I was not wearing "approved" equipment provided by my department for the task?
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    If we're worried about the potential need for fire rated gloves, we're packed up and on air right????[/QB]
    I know there is a note of sarcasm in this Post but It brings up some very good points. I have witnessed Extrications from Canada to Florida from Connecticut to Colorado. I have seem a lot of firefighters get pretty redfaced and Heat injuries. I fully believe We need to be prepared for the potential of fire and be protected accordingly, But at what cost?? Lets balance our need for protection from one thing against the need for protection from other things, among them heat Stress. Let us have some sanity

    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

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    I don't mean to sound stupid here, but most of our guys use welding gloves. They are durable, heat resistant, fit well, excellent dexterity and sense of feel, cheap.

    We just cut off the large cuff so there is only about an inch left. Also we use a smoothed leather as opposed to the suede.

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    I agree with Resq I personally use the Mechanix Imact2 they in my opinion are awesome. Though not fire-resistant they are durable with re-enforced finger tips and alot of padding. They are better than average for feeling small things. I believe the Nomex gloves would be Ideal, but at this time my budget does not let me get them I think I shall get rid her. (my budget)

    Just an addition everyone is concerned about flash-fire. My question is: Are any of you thinking about Blood-borne I saw someone and I am sorry I forgot your name (I am at work)
    mentioned latex underneath, that is how I combat the blood-borne, but if you get blood on the gloves they should be disposed of anyway. Let's face it in the world today diesease is a bigger threat than fire in a situation like this you never know who's got what.

    [ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: MFF ]
    Proud to be IACOJ Illinois Chapter--Deemed "Crustworthy" Jan, 2003

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    Forgive my laziness in not getting names from some of these comments.

    I have hardly ever (if ever) made it through an entire extrication with Fire Gloves on. I have been through several entire extrications without taking my extrication gloves off (Ringers now). Kinda increases their effectiveness I guess.

    So in all the posts, we find someone who was involved in the one in a million fire, and he indicates even a hoseline in place would have had limited effectiveness. hmmmmmm

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    Regarding the Mechanix M-16s gloves, our staff members have tried this glove in the past. They all had the same comments about them. Some are good, some are bad. They are good for fit. they have a close fit and are great dealing with heated objects. BUT! they are not durable. They have vent holes on the side of the fingers, thus, allowing forign objects to enter the glove. It is bad when glass splinters enter your glove in the middle of an extrication. Also, the wear and tear is poor on them. they only lasted about 3 months for us.
    Just remain calm, it will be okay!

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    Originally posted by ffguy083:
    <STRONG>So in all the posts, we find someone who was involved in the one in a million fire, and he indicates even a hoseline in place would have had limited effectiveness. hmmmmmm</STRONG>
    I guess that one-in-a-million was me. And while a hose line would not have given much protection, no gloves on would have given no protection. Fire rated gloves should withstand a fire for at least one second before the wearer would experience a 2nd degree burn. That would be enough time to jump back if a fire were to occur.

    I have received my pair of M-16 glove. I haven't had a chance to use them yet, but I have made a couple observations.

    #1 - They seem to be sized small. I ordered my usual "large" size and these are a bit tight. I could send them back I guess, but they charge a 20% restocking fee,so for $16 I'll wear them for short periods of time. I have ordered a pair of extra-large to wear while working at motorsports events.

    #2 - The gloves are primarily nomex and therefore would not hold up well when handling broken glass and other sharp objects. Mechanix has a "Rescue Glove" on their webpage that cost $10 more, but it might at least have leater on the fingers and entire palm.

    #3 - On this pair I see no "vent holes" in the sides of the fingers. However, I am sure glass shards could penetrate the nomex with little problem.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    Great Comments, Take a Look at NFPA-1951,
    "Protective Ensemble for Technical Rescue Incidents". (www.nfpa.org)
    Adopted in California on the same day as 1710 & 1720, it has gone mostly un-noticed.
    It will become a standard this Fall and NO current glove (best survey that I have taken)will pass.
    I know of at least one manufacturer who is
    researching a dual certified glove for both FIRE & MotorSports (SFI TPP ratings).
    Something that the NFPA-610 draft on MotorSports recommends. Clearly your concerns about FIRE & BLOOD are already demanding upcoming change.
    I suggest that if you have a favorite manufacturer, contact them and ask them to make a Dual certified glove. Point out to them that "If You Build It They Will Come".

    Go Fast, Stay Safe

    Patrick Moore
    RaceResQ, Inc. "Making MotorSports Safer"

    Pennsylvania State Fire Academy Instructor
    Chair - Training Task Force -
    National Fire Protection Association
    Technical Standards Committee-610
    "Safety in MotorSports"
    Indianapolis Motor Speedway Fire Department
    http://www.RaceResQ.Com
    PatMoore@RaceResQ.Com

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