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  1. #1
    huntere6
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post IAFF Endorses Al Gore


    A message to the two Al's

    I have been a Local member for 14 years (L-36) here in our Nations Capital and over the years I have received letters from the International at election time. The letters seem to disseminate to the membership the same message; “Vote Democrat, and if you don’t the nations professional fire fighters are in great jeopardy.” Scare tactics are a consistent approach for the IAFF come election time. This seems to be the shared methodology of the Teamsters and Democratic Party. Unfortunately these tactics influence members. I believe I speak for a large number of brothers and sisters in that the heavily one-sided International is again trying to align its membership into believing that the Democratic nominee is the only candidate who supports professional fire fighters.

    To suggest that Al Gore is the only nominee who supports fire fighter initiatives is misleading. Because Al Gore has publicly announced that he is committed to championing issues for fire fighters, should not automatically infer that the other candidates are against fire fighters. Has the IAFF asked the other candidates if they will support the health and safety of our Nations fire fighters? I can hardly imagine their response would be negative. The IAFF newsletter identifies Republican house members as signers of bills that promulgate fire fighter initiatives. We have a great number of Republican friends in the House and Senate, more than the IAFF would care to admit.

    IAFF campaign pamphlets of the last election stated that,“ It’s more than just about gun control and abortion rights, its about issues that directly concern our professional fire fighters.” Though I whole-heartedly agree that issues concerning professional firefighters are important, they are not the only issues a fire fighter should ponder when selecting a candidate. Issues concerning money in our pocket, both during our career and into retirement are important. Issues concerning our children’s education are important. Issues concerning affordable and responsible health care are important. Issues concerning the right to protect our families from a criminal element are important. Issues concerning the security of our Nation are important. Issues concerning the morality of our nation as a whole are also important. These are all issues that have a great impact on our families.

    Al Gore supports the current tax code and has expressed disfavor of a tax cut for the working man and woman. The current tax code is anti-business, anti-growth, anti-family, anti individual, anti-investment, anti-success, and basically, anti-American. Al Gore is against cutting capital gains taxes. How many fire fighters invest in the stock market/deferred comp? How many fire fighters have sold a house and walked away with equity, only to be consumed by capital gains taxes? The capital gains tax affects anyone who invests their hard earn money, contrary to the liberal /socialist who professes that the folks that advocate cutting capital gain taxes are fat cat corporate types. The capital gains tax effects people like you and me, (Firefighters). Class envy is another tool in which the Al Gore types use to promulgate their agenda. What better way to gain a following than to convince one class of people that another is disregarding them.

    In closing, I will add that my defining issue come election time will also be integrity. Al Gore has demonstrated to the American people that he is willing to stand idle, while his cohort denigrates the office of the Presidency. (A president that was twice endorsed by the IAFF). His direct involvement in this administration’s scandals demonstrate his inability to possess worthy traits required to lead this country into the next millennium.

    I petition my brothers and sisters that come election time you vote smart. Don’t be fooled by a partisan union. Research the truth and decide which candidate will benefit you, the fire fighter, and your family. God Bless!

    Fraternally yours, (but independent thinker)

    Gregory Turnell


  2. #2
    mongofire_99
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well said.

    And remember, federal law allows you to get any part of your union dues back, but you have to ask for it.

    Don't let the IAFF put your money in the pocket of Al Gore or any other politician you don't agree with.

  3. #3
    Capt. Skippy
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    huntere6,

    I didn't have time to write as much as you did, but I feel that you expressed very well what I feel. Thank you! http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/biggrin.gif I'm glad to see that there are others out there that engage their brains instead of grazing with the sheep!

    ------------------
    Remember - Safety is a way of Life!

  4. #4
    WOODMAN
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Glad to see that some people are not like sheep being led to slaughter.I will also vote for Bush seeing how Gore has had 8 years to make his mark and still has not done
    a thing but kiss someones rear.

  5. #5
    dtj
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    If you don't want your union dues going toward political contributions, who do you notify? Is there a specific format? Do you keep the money or does it go to another union fund?

  6. #6
    mongofire_99
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    A couple of things before I go on...

    I wonder where the "IAFF can do no wrong and is the greatest thing since sliced bread" members are on the Gore endorsement?

    And let me make it clear I AM NOT anti-union or a union buster, anyone that tells you otherwise is lying. I am only opposed to my salary being docked for political purposes I do not support.

    Sending this letter will probably get the IAFF ****ed at you, telling you how to do will get them ****ed at me. (I wonder what would happen if a whole local opted out on this?)

    This applies to politics as well as other non-bargaining related activities. Once you send this letter, all the IAFF can collect is your share of their cost of collective bargaining, contract admin, and grievance.

    So here's how you do it...

    Just copy the following 2 letters and fill in the required info identified by [text]. Send them by certified mail, return reciept requested.

    Send the following letter to the IAFF:

    =================

    [your address]
    [date]

    [name and address of union]

    [To appropriate union officer]
    :

    I object to the collection and expenditure by the union of a fee for any purpose other than my pro rata share of the union's costs of collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment, as is my right under Abood v. Detroit Board of Education, 431 U.S. 209 (1977). Pursuant to Chicago Teachers Union v. Hudson, 475 U.S. 292 (1986), I request that you provide me with my procedural rights, including: reduction of my fees to an amount that includes only lawfully chargeable costs; notice of the calculation of that amount, verified by an independent certified public accountant; and notice of the procedure that you have adopted to hold my fees in an interest-bearing escrow account and give me an opportunity to challenge your calculation and have it reviewed by an impartial decisionmaker.

    [If you pay dues by payroll deduction, include this paragraph:] Accordingly, I also hereby revoke my authorization for the deduction of membership dues and authorize only the deduction of representation fees. If I am required to sign a new authorization form to make that change, please provide me with the necessary form.

    Please reply promptly to my request. Any further collection or expenditure of dues or fees from me made without the procedural safeguards required by law will violate my rights under the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1871, 42 U.S. Code § 1983, and the U.S. Constitution.

    Sincerely yours,
    [name]

    ==================

    And this one to you employer.

    ==================


    [your address]
    [date]


    [name and address of depertment
    responsible for payroll deductions]


    To whom it may concern:

    Today I notified [name of union] that I object to collection and expenditure of a fee for any purpose other than my pro rata share of the union's costs of collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment, as is my constitutional right under Abood v. Detroit Board of Education, 431 .S. 209 (1977). A copy of my letter to the union is enclosed. Pursuant to Teachers Local 1 v. Hudson, 475 U.S. 292 (1986), I request that you ensure that the union provides me with my First-Amendment procedural rights, including those outlined in my letter to the union. If it does not, I ask that [name of employer] provide them.

    [If you pay dues by payroll deduction, include this paragraph:] Accordingly, I also hereby notify you that I wish to authorize only the deduction of representation fees limited to those costs that are lawfully chargeable under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. If I am required to sign a form to make that change, please provide me with the necessary form.

    Please reply promptly to my request. Any further collection or expenditure of dues or fees from me made without the procedural safeguards required by law will violate my rights under the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1871, 42 U.S. Code § 1983, and the U.S. Constitution.

    Sincerely yours,
    [name]

    =====================

    Hope this helps.

    mongo



    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited June 24, 2000).]

  7. #7
    firenurse
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    I have just one question. Would the "real" Al Gore please stand up?

    I am sure if a poll came out and said he should mess with the fire service he would. Voting for Al would be "risk, very risky"

  8. #8
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Unfortunately, he is standing up - what you see is what you get.

    He continues to show us the way he has worked since he's been in political office. We're just paying more attention now.

  9. #9
    lt/medic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    It should be Al Gore, although I would have preferred John McCain. Why Al?
    1. George W is bought and paid for. No one could raise as much money as he has without owing many favors. The head of the NRA has stated "If George Bush is elected we (the NRA) will have a corner office in the White House." Whether you are in favor of Gun Control or not is irrelevant. Any group having this amount of influence with a potential President is wrong.

    Al has also done some questionable fund raising, but to a much lesser extent. At least Al has publically stated he is in favor of campaign finance reform. George W will not even mention it.

    2. George W is BIG BUSINESS. When has big business ever been a supporter of the Fire Service. How many of you have fought, and fought, and been dragged to court by big business over fire safety code violations?

    3. George W is anti-environmental. His head of the Texas EPA is the former lobbyiest for the Texas Chemical Industry. Texas has the worst environmental record of any state. Do you think George W would support Hazmat Regulations or work to protect firefighters who respond to Hazmat calls or Superfund Sites?

    4. During the Campaign Al Gore aggressively attacked Bill Bradley, but he always treated him with respect. I will not forgive George W for telling outright lies, and attacking John McCains character. Doing such stunts as saying John McCain voted against Breast Cancer Research, or even worse, attacking Senator McCain's record as a vetern by bringing some phoney crank to the stage in North Carolina.

    5. Several comments on this board have been about character. George W showed his lack of character by the way he treated John McCain. His ideas did not defeat McCain, his money did.

    Many people have critisized Al Gore because of his relationship with Bill Clinton. Why, all Al Gore has done is been loyal to his boss and his organization. We in the Fire service know how important it is to have organizational loyalty.

    Jack Webb


  10. #10
    mongofire_99
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Sorry man I got to call you out on this one.

    >1. George W is bought and paid for. No one could raise as much money as he has without owing many favors.

    gore has been in politics nearly his whole adult life. No politician is deeper into peoples/business pockets than he is. The Chi-coms, big tobbacco (if he really felt the way he claims he does he'd be screaming to make it illegal), NAACP, Ranbow Coalition, hollywood.

    >Any group having this amount of influence with a potential President is wrong.

    So how do you feel about agents of the chi-com government having unlimited access to the president?

    >2. George W is BIG BUSINESS.

    Gore has stated he is the biggest supporter of big business in government. If you think all of his money is coming from "grass-roots" and not big business, you need to get a hold on reality.

    >When has big business ever been a supporter of the Fire Service.

    When they've donated SCBAs, money, turnouts, vehicles, land and a miraid of other things to us.

    What had gore done for us? Nothing. "Well he supported 2 in/2 out" - this was not firefighter legislation to begin with, it was BIG BUSINESS, it bled over into our area as a result of technical terms.

    He supports unions - then why is he stabbing them in the back on trade?

    The rest of the IAFF issues? Has anyone asked any of the other candidates Bush, Bradley or McCain how they felt? No, the IAFF jumped on gore's bandwagon and could care less what anyone other candidate had to say. Bradley has a pro FD record, Bush does too, you don't care, the union don't care.

    >Many people have critisized Al Gore because of his relationship with Bill Clinton. Why, all Al Gore has done is been loyal to his boss and his organization.

    But extremely disloyal to America - selling secrets to the commys for campaign donations. But hey, he and ol' Bill won didn't they? I guess the end justifies the means. Loyalty...he doesn't know the meaning of the word or he has no concious, you decide that one.

    No politician lies more than gore, just yesterday the Dallas Morning News ran an article on charitable giving and quoted gore as saying over the years he's given a bigger % of his income to charity than Bush. They even posted a chart beside it to show it. Just one problem for gore, when you do the math he averages a whopping 5.8% - Bush hits it at 9.7%

    And in my humble opinion, to say you wanted McCain and then Gore is nuts. They're almost as far apart as Bush and gore when you get down to it. Gore is the most corrupt politician when it comes to campaign finance. Does he list his donors - no, doesn't want to make it to easy for you to find out who they are.

  11. #11
    huntere6
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    Jack,

    It's one thing to have an opinion but it's another to try and base that opinion on foundationless examples.

    1. Where do you think the NRA got their money from, big business? WRONG! People like me, CITIZENS. People that are fed up with bureaucrats and liberals who think they know what’s best for Americans and who wish to interpret the constitution in their own make believe way. So in retrospect George W. has attained his position financially because of the people. The NRA is a grass roots organization. The people put them into power and they will remain there as long as the people who support them choose to contribute to that organization.

    2. Campaign finance reform. A joke! There’s no doubt that Al is in favor of this because all that this reform will do is put all the campaigning power into the media’s hand, and we all know that the media is pro liberal. So you see Al and all the other liberals have nothing to lose as long as the media is the only mouthpiece that the people hear. Now Jack look at this example, the NRA who you fear speaks on behalf of people like me, citizens from a grass roots organization. The media does not speak on behalf of me or you or Joe Shmo down the street. They speak on behalf of the liberals. You’re free to support, as I am, any organization you wish to. Ain’t America great!

    3. My friend mongofire summed it up pretty well, where in the hell do you think the technology came from that gave the fire service the state of the art equipment they have today, Al Gore, Bill Clinton? If anything they stand in the way of big business. They got big business so scared today their afraid they maybe called a monopoly and taken to court. The stock market has been unstable from the day the feds won their first battle against Microsoft.

    3. Look at the big picture Jack. Ronald Reagan left this country in a very comfortable and safe position. He managed to defeat our biggest enemy threat and allowed capitalism and the free markets to thrive. Now look at what Al and Bill have done. Bill and loyal Al have managed to combine diplomatic stupidity and arrogance while flipping their bird finger at the people, and at the same time building a campaign cash cow which knows no red lines. Bill and Al’s corporate attempt to create a crisis for cash marks a low point in the ethical treatment of people. India, an age-old Chinese enemy, feeling threatened. They have successfully detonated five nuclear test bombs and China heard them. Pakistan, another age-old enemy of India, sets off three bombs within earshot of India. "I am Pakistan hear me roar". With Pakistan scared and India in fear and no safety switch or red phones, the tension heats up. Put this on the cover of CNN for the entire world to hear and watch the money roll in. And don't take your eyes and ears off Iraq's fragrance building factories either. A king size Auschwitz in the making. Congratulations Billy and loyal Al, we owe it all to you.

    You see Jack Democrats and Republicans have historically embraced the "let's-hold-hands-and-sing" theory of diplomacy. In a world where character counts, that works. But the Trojan Horse of the sixties has crashed the "Kumbaya Party".
    In the coming years our children and their children will look back with hindsight and wonder how it all happened. How did America slip? They will ask, "Who did this?" You can tell them Jack that Billy and loyal Al did it. But don’t tell them about, China, missiles or Monica Lewinsky; get right to the point. Tell them ... "It was about character."


  12. #12
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Easy Mongo - down boy.

    I agree Gore is a lying sack. But we only know what we read in the paper or see on the network news. And all that stuff they couldn't print or report if it wasn't true right?

    "Any group having this amount of influence with a potential President is wrong."

    But what if it was the IAFF? Several groups including the unions (but it's running thin), so-called civil rights leaders (Jackson, Sharpton), tree huggers, socialist and chinese communists currently have that "amount of influence" over Gore.

    "Al has also done some questionable fund raising, but to a much lesser extent."

    I had to read that one twice. I still can't believe lt/medic (or anyone else) believes or would even say that.

    OK lt/medic, I'll ask - how has Bush broken the law in his fundraising? Simple question, you made the accusation, back it up.

    Which law enforcment officials have called for an investigation into Bush's fund raising? I'll make it easier, just tell me how many have. Now, same 2 questions regarding Gore? The tally is Bush 0, Gore at least 4 (that we know of). Do you really think if Bush was doing illegal or unethical fundraising, the Clinton justice department wouldn't jump all over it?

    "At least Al has publically stated he is in favor of campaign finance reform. George W will not even mention it."

    Are we that stupid? Do you really believe Gore is interested in reform? He wasn't interested in it when Bradley was in the race. He wasn't interested in it when he was at the Buddhist Temple. He wasn't to interested in it when he issued a memo stating he and Clinton would have to do coffee's to raise money. He's not interested in it enough to stop Striesand from having a fund raising concert at the cost of $50,000 per couple. But he thinks you're interested in it so he'll tell you he is.

    He's done more illegal and/or unethical fundraising than any other politician in our history. Look at the records, how much have they had to return? How much do they owe?

    "His [Bush] head of the Texas EPA is the former lobbyiest for the Texas Chemical Industry."

    And one of Gores closest advisors is a former lobbiest for the price gouging drug industry. And Gore own a million or so dollars in stock in one of the largest price gouging oil companies in the world (I know it's in a trust, but he could dump it tommorrow if he was committed to his stated principles). So what's your point?

    "Texas has the worst environmental record of any state."

    And the largest chemical process plants manufacturing, ports, oil and gas industry of any state. It naturally follows that we would have some problems.

    However, look at other factors, say the population/pollution ratio, Texas has 12.6# per person Tennessee on the other hand has 17.9# per person How about pollution/area Texas 872# per square mile and Tennessee 2,360# per square mile. Now which one has the worst environment?

    "4. During the Campaign Al Gore aggressively attacked Bill Bradley, but he always treated him with respect."

    Gore treated Bradley like he (Bradley) was punk - he could have taken him to any jail and swapped him for a pack of smokes at any time.

    I realize I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine and that's fine. But don't spread the BS you started with, it's too easy to point out the errors.

    The section on campaign finance is enough to make the rest meaningless. Who can trust it when what leads into it is so obviously false?

  13. #13
    mongofire_99
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The more I think about it, the more gores defenders remind me of the drunk in a Richard Pryor routine. The one where he asks his woman to tell some more lies to make him stop thinking about the truth.

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited July 16, 2000).]

  14. #14
    lt/medic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    So, S. Cook, to paraphrase you “don't spread the BS you started with, it's too easy to point out the errors.”

    Follow the money, and your arguments are nothing but paid programming from George W. Check your facts try this web site: http://www.publicintegrity.org/repor.../financial.htm

    This is a non-partisan web-site. One of the big charges was that Al Gore made telephone fundraising calls from his Vice-Presidents Office. Come on, get real. All politicians have done that exact same thing through out their career. Also get your facts straight, Gore has not been investigated four times about campaign finance, he has been investigated 17 times in the past eight years. Coincidentally Bush/Quale was investigated 17 times in four years. This information is from the Federal Election Commission. Why has George W not been investigated, because in wild Texas there are no laws regarding Soft or Hard money donations to campaigns. The only law is a recently enacted disclosure law.

    So, Al Gore raised money from Buddhists -- the fastest growing religion in the US. How is that different from all the soft money the Christian Coalition gives to the Republican Party? At least Al Gore did not speak at Bob Jones University like George W did. Remember Bob Jones University… the school that still preaches segregation and prejudice.

    Your argument about drug industry lobbyist on Gore’s staff is about as effective as a placebo. Again, follow the money. Some of the largest soft money contributors to the Republican Party are the drug companies. They are also one of the largest hard money contributors to individual Republican Congressman and Senators. The drug industry is actively campaigning against the Clinton/Gore Medicare Drug Insurance Program that is currently in congress. They are afraid it will cut down on their profits. Fortunately here in New Hampshire, senior groups sponsor bus trips to Canada, where the drug prices are cheaper.

    Check out these web sites: http://www.opensecrets.org/newslette...03state_TX.asp and http://www.tpj.com The following is from Open Secrets:

    “Texas Governor George W. Bush broke fundraising records in Texas long before he did so on the presidential trail. Unhindered by federal contribution limits, W raised $41 million for his two gubernatorial races. In January, TPJ analyzed this money by contribution size and source, using interest categories that the Center for Responsive Politics devised for federal donors. The findings of The Governor’s Gusher include:
    • 24 percent of the money came from just 207 donors who gave $25,000 or more (Lonnie Pilgrim’s $125,000 made him the 7th highest individual donor);
    • 20 percent came from the Energy sector (the only bill that W declared as "emergency" legislation in 1999 was a tax cut for oil producers); and
    • 15 percent came from donors who sit on the boards of two business groups that seek to severely limit civil lawsuits (an "emergency" priority of W’s first term).
    In researching the identities of W’s top donors, TPJ kept encountering people who owe part of their fortunes to corporate welfare or who have a commercial interest in taking regulatory cops off their beats. National news reports have focused on some of the 100 Bush "Profiteers" profiled in the report, particularly those whom the Bush administration has favored.

    The Dusty Money Trail:
    Additional TPJ reports have repeatedly documented the business lobby’s hold on Texas’ elected officials, including an exposé of the $35 million in political spending by the polluters who keep Texas No. 1 in toxic emissions. Others have covered such topics as the revolving door between the statehouse and high-paid lobbying jobs.” -- end --

    (tpj = Texans for Public Justice, a non-partisan watchdog group on campaign finances in Texas)

    I don’t know how gas and oil prices are in Texas, but in the Northeast, we suffered through high heating oil prices in the winter then high gas prices in the fall. Sure make you wonder how much Georgie W’s oil industry friends really needed that emergency tax cut back in 1999.

    Finally, where has the money gone Georgie? As of May 31, 2000 George Bush has raised $87,546,013 but only has $7,111,295 dollars left. Even some of his most ardent supporters are worried about the rate of campaign spending. In the same period Al Gore has raised $47,731,148 and has $8,187,827 cash on hand. Looks like Bush needs to take lessons on fiscal restraint from Gore.

    Jack Webb

  15. #15
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    OK, this is long and boring, but...

    "Follow the money, and your arguments are nothing but paid programming from George W. Check your facts try this web site: http://www.publicintegrity.org/reports/BOP2000/financial.htm"

    OK I looked, nothing there related to anything I stated.

    "One of the big charges was that Al Gore made telephone fundraising calls from his Vice-Presidents Office. Come on, get real. All politicians have done that exact same thing through out their career."

    I never mentioned this, but since you did... Name the other ones that solicited money from their office in violation of federal law, cite your references please. I'll give you the first one:

    * Gore - he admitted it (and said there was no controlling legal authority).

    "Also get your facts straight, Gore has not been investigated four times about campaign finance,..."

    My facts are straight. I asked which and how many law enforcement officials have CALLED FOR AN INVESTIGATION INTO GORES FUNDRAISING?"

    The answer is 4 that we know of, 1 from the FBI and 3 from the FEDERAL JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. Maybe I should have said FEDERAL LAW ENFORCMENT and spelled it out - FBI, Justice Department. (I didn't count congress as they are not law enforcement.)

    You asked "Why has George W not been investigated?"

    Maybe, just maybe because he has not broken (or bent) any laws.

    I ask again, if there was the slightest chance Bush has done anything illegal or appears illegal (or unethical), do you think the Clinton justice department would let him slide like they are letting Gore slide? (I don't expect you to answer as you would essentially be admitting he's done nothing wrong.)

    "So, Al Gore raised money from Buddhists -- the fastest growing religion in the US. How is that different from all the soft money the Christian Coalition gives to the Republican Party?"

    First let me say in all seriousness I appreciate your honesty. You are the first Gore supporter I've heard with the eggs to admit that Gore was raising money from the Buddhist (now if you will just realize that it was illegal for him to do this).

    Now for the difference? No one is re-embursing the members of the Christian Coalition for their contributions - like the Chinese government and industry are the Buddhists (remember, people are being prosecuted for this, e.g. Gores long time friend Maria Hsia). If you have any evidence other wise (hard, anecdotal or just plain made up), I'm certain that Janet Reno would love to hear from you. Should you hold out, she will soon be after you for obstruction of justice.

    Also, you might want to get your facts straight. If you search the donor database from your reference you will find the Christian Coalition has not given ANY soft money to the republicans. http://www.opensecrets.org/parties/softsearch_2000.htm

    "At least Al Gore did not speak at Bob Jones University like George W did. Remember Bob Jones University, the school that still preaches segregation and prejudice."

    Dead horse - Yes I remember. And I agree with what Bush said - he should have called them on their policy of no inter-racial dating and their anti-catholic views, both of which are absurd. (Hey, "gee I'm sorry" works for you when Clinton says he said it, why doesn't it work when Bush actually says it?)

    But what about Gore, he panders to the racist views of Jackson and Sharpton. You know the one - essentailly every problem in America is about race? BS. Race is only the problem when some idiot decides that he/she wants race to be a problem. Now for clarity the idiots I speak of include ALL people that treat or think different of others because of a difference in color of skin, sex, religion or ethinic origin as well as Jackson and Sharpton. And the idiots problems include being a racist or assuming that because something didn't go their way it was a racial thing.

    (Since we're on the subject of race did you, or anyone else, hear Gore's speech from the NAACP? Man did he sound like he was trying to do a Jackson impression or what? I wonder if anyone present is offended at his stereotyped black preacher presentation...)

    "Why has George W not been investigated, because in wild Texas there are no laws regarding Soft or Hard money donations to campaigns."

    Bush is running a national campaign. If there is any evidence he may be breaking the law Reno will jump on it, Clinton will make sure of it. Texas laws apply to Texas politics only, not the national politics Bush is in now.

    "The only law is a recently enacted disclosure law."

    This should be the primary campaign finance law (there should be a few others like no foreign govenrments can give money, which we have now but it only applies to the republicans). Why am I limited to $1,000? What gives the government the right to limit my freedom of speech for the presidential candidate I support? If I want I should be able to sign my life savings over to them.

    "Finally, where has the money gone Georgie?"

    Let's see, Bush had a more formidable candidate than Bradley in the primaries, needed to spend some money there, Gore is flying tax free in Air Force 2, Bush is paying for his travel expenses. There are any number of reasons for the difference. One of your references spelled it out for you (opensecrets.org), but didn't mention where Gore's money went for comparison.

    I did find it interesting that of Bush's money, over 96% came from individuals where less than 73% of Gores did. Bush's quality of full diclosure is 89.3% and Gores is 81%. The same source shows the democrats getting more soft money than the republicans nation wide and over 230% (two hundred thirty percent) more soft money than the republicans in Texas.

    Also, Gore has recived almost $14 million in tax payer confiscated (aka federal matching) funds. Bush is giving you the option of giving to his campaign.

    "Your argument about drug industry lobbyist on Gore’s staff is about as effective as a placebo."

    You bet, just like yours regarding the Texas EPA chief. It's just what I intended.

    "The drug industry is actively campaigning against the Clinton/Gore Medicare Drug Insurance Program that is currently in congress."

    Let me ask you 2 questions:

    1. What control over private industry has federal regulation ever made better or resulted in a less expensive product?

    2. What is the maximum percentage of your money should the federal govenrment confiscate for redistribution to pay for drugs? Easy question. Gore's camp refuses to answer it.

    "Sure make you wonder how much Georgie W’s oil industry friends really needed that emergency tax cut back in 1999."

    If it costs the oil company less to produce the oil, wouldn't it follow that the consumer would pay less for the oil? That's what happened here. How much in state and federal taxes on heating oil are you paying? Would you benefit from a little tax relief there?



    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited July 18, 2000).]

  16. #16
    mongofire_99
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    That's cold to use a guy's own references against his arguements. I wonder if he even bothered to read the stuff (some of it was pretty interesting) or did he just pick out what looked good to him.

    And I couldn't find anything related to this at www.tpj.com it goes to a perl journal. Are you sure this is the right address?

    Also, need to correct one of my statments -

    >"Well he supported 2 in/2 out" - this was not firefighter legislation to begin with, it was BIG BUSINESS, it bled over into our area as a result of technical terms.

    Should have said...

    2in/2out was directed at the safety of the employees in big business, bleeding over into the fire service due to technical terms.

  17. #17
    lt/medic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Quick reply, the address was http://www.tpj.org It is the address for Texans for Public Justice.

    Also don't confuse China with Buddhists, he raised money from a temple aligned with the Tibetan School of Buddhism. I doubt they have much love for China.

    What I find is intresting is that we are debating the merits of George W. vs Al but George W. refuses to debate Al. Perhaps you can show me that George W. is not being an intellectual coward, but has good reasons not to get his *** kicked in a debate.

    -- more later.

    [This message has been edited by lt/medic (edited July 18, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by lt/medic (edited July 18, 2000).]

  18. #18
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "Also don't confuse China with Buddhists, he raised money from a temple aligned with the Tibetan School of Buddhism. I doubt they have much love for China."

    I agree that a Tibetan Buddhist would not be fond of the current Chinese government. But...

    "Both John Huang and Maria Hsia are known by the FBI to be agents of Communist China. Together with James Riady, they formed the Pacific Leadership Council, and invited none other than then-Senator Al Gore to the Hsi Lai temple headquarters in Taiwan in 1989. On behalf of the Chinese government, Maria Hsia promised Al Gore that she would persuade all her colleagues "in the future to play a leader role in your presidential race." www.federal.com/nov17-97/Story01.html

    In case you didn't know it, Hsia and Huang set up the Buddhist Temple fundraiser and laundered the money for it.

    "What I find is intresting is that we are debating the merits of George W. vs Al but George W. refuses to debate Al. Perhaps you can show me that George W. is not being an intellectual coward, but has good reasons not to get his *** kicked in a debate."

    Besides Gore supporters needing some small thread to hold on too, what's the big deal? Debates occur after both parties conventions.

    Dates of presidential debates:

    1960 - 9/26, 10/7, 10/13 and 10/21

    No debates between '60 and '76

    1976 - 9/23, 10/6 and 10/22

    1980 - 9/21 and 10/28

    1984 - 10/7 and 10/21

    1988 - 9/25 and 10/13

    1992 - 10/11, 10/15 and 10/19

    1996 - 10/6 and 10/16

    So, history shows us that the debates occur after the conventions and often less than a month before the election.

    This information won't change your mindset that Bush is an "intullectual coward" but it may show somebody else how desperate Gore supporters are for attention. "Look, he's afraid of Gore - he doesn't know anything." The debates aren't going to matter much anyway. If Bush kicks Gore's tail, it won't change the mind of those that are in lock step with the official thinking of the party. Besides Bush is in a everything to gain/nothing to lose situation with the debates. The media already has him losing because Gore is a "master debater."

    Regardless of how they go, the media will spin it at no less than a tie so Gore won't look bad (which would be a Bush win since Gore is supposed to be so good).

    Your boy is getting his *** handed to him in a sack and is desperate. It takes a Clinton Executive Order to get Gore to hold a press conference and even then it's a scripted situation and you're hammering Bush for waiting until after the conventions to debate?

    Did you catch him the other day with Russert? Flip flopping again? After 15 years of telling people his views on abortion have always been consistent (and pushing this really hard the last year or so when Bradley was hammering him on it), he told Russert he changed it about 15 years ago. Lying for 15 years... But you don't care do you?

    Bradley said it best "...why should we believe that you will tell the truth as president, if you don’t tell the truth as a candidate?"

    And he hasn't told the truth as a VP niether.

    I notice you still haven't answered any of the questions from previous posts...

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited July 19, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited July 19, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited July 19, 2000).]

  19. #19
    mongofire_99
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Al Gore should debate himself. He's been all over the spectrum on almost every issue out there. He could pick 2 of his 10 or so personalities he has had this year alone to debate each other and have at it.

  20. #20
    mongofire_99
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    In the interest of fairness and just so we understand that there are some clear thinking (in relation to Gore anyway) liberals out there.

    10 Reasons not to vote for Gore from Fight the Right web site http://members.aol.com/FightThem/

    1. HE'S BEEN AROUND BILL CLINTON FOR TWO TERMS. The single most important reason why Progressives should skip Gore is that he's been in the White House witnessing Clinton's actions. Gore is a smart person, and he'll learn from Clinton. At every turn, Bill Clinton has avoided his policy advisors and listened to his political ones. When Mr. Sleaze, Dick Morris, brought Clinton poll results indicating that welfare reform was popular, Clinton supported it despite advice from his Secretaries of Labor and HHS telling him it would devastate the poor. Clinton expanded the death penalty because it was popular; trounced habeaus corpus protections to look tough on crime; limited civil liberties to appeal to the majority; and now makes "fast track" trade policies a priority because it will gain Republican votes. As a result, Clinton was reelected and his poll numbers are at historic highs. Gore has learned a terrible lesson -- that principles should be sacrificed for maximum electoral majorities -- and he therefore should not be elected.

    2. PRINCIPLES? WHAT PRINCIPLES?!!! This builds on reason #1, but goes deeper. Since the first days of the Clinton presidency, even before Clinton gave up all convictions, Gore emerged as a man without principle. Known as a pro-environment Senator, Gore nonetheless shrinked in the face of the business, ranching and timber industries. He's had his chance to prove his convictions and missed it.

    3. TWO WORDS: WELFARE REFORM. Clinton was leading Dole by 15 points in the polls. The polls showed there was no way he would lose. All of the White House policy experts warned of the dangers of welfare reform. Nonetheless, Clinton signed it. Gore should have prevented this from happening, even if it meant threatening to resign. He didn't, and by saving his behind, he's also lost the chance to lead the Democrats.

    4. HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS MEAN NOTHING TO DEMOCRATS. Al Gore, who was to be the environmental champion, instead headed up two major tasks as Vice President; Reinventing Government, and defending NAFTA. The first was a do-nothing, feel good job that had little practical effect; and the second cost American jobs at the same time that it encouraged Mexico to destroy its environment and any labor rights its citizens enjoyed. These are the things the second most powerful American leader has to show for two terms in office? Next!

    5. TIPPER GORE. Though the Gores rarely mention it, she advocated anti-free speech policies as co-founder of the Parents Music Resources Center and advocated government control of music lyrics. That group was largely responsible for the parental advisory labels used on tapes and CDs. The organization also pressures record companies, radio stations and music stores to stop producing, playing or selling recordings it considers detrimental to children. This is Christian Coalition stuff, and has no place in the Democratic Party.

    6. HE REEKS OF FUNDRAISING SCANDAL. Gore's biggest asset was his squeaky clean image. Now, he hides behind defenses like "no controlling legal authority prohibited my actions", he's hired two criminal defense attorneys, and an independent prosecutor is knocking at the door. Even if the allegations are untrue, he's too damaged to take on a Republican challenger.

    7. FUNDRAISING SCANDAL, PART TWO. Another effect of the recent fundraising scandals is the hesitation big-name givers will have towards donating to Gore. Will donations open them up to the inquiries of an independent prosecutor? That fear alone will leave Gore under funded in the general election.

    8. HIS STAFF WILL BE FILLED WITH CLINTONITES. Who has Gore assembled to run his national campaign? People from the Clinton campaign and White House. This will dispel any doubts that his priorities are the same as Clinton's.

    9. THE "NEW DEMOCRAT" LABEL. Gore, like Clinton, proudly wears the "New Democrat" label. In fact, early in the Clinton Presidency it was Gore that tugged Clinton to the right on Gays in the Military, health care, and other issues. Translated, the label means "Old Republican." Let's choose someone who's proud to be a Democrat.

    10. OTHERS DESERVE IT MORE. Starting with people like Richard Gephardt, there are a host of solid Democrats with national appeal who will pursue progressive values. Why waste a chance on Gore?

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited July 23, 2000).]

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