1. #1
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default Hand Line Advancment

    Interested to see how volunteer departments set up pumpers and hose loads and advance lines...esp into single family dwellings. Lengths, diameters and nozzle types as well. Preconnected or dead loads? What techniques do you use advancing lines and extinguishing fire...and do you perform simultaneous venting with water application...my department doesnt....kina bothers me. I woud like to see what other Volunteers do, let me know...Thanks.

  2. #2
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    1st line is usually 1.5" charged line with a 95gpm Rockwood nozzle...second is 1.75" charged line with 180gpm TFT. (Charged lines are similiar to booster lines, but using standard structural hose kept charged at 50psi when rewound). Additional handlines will usually be 1.5" single jacket hi-rise pack hose stretched from hi-rise packs, or in rare instances 200' 2.5" preconnect (see http://pages.cthome.net/mortlake/T&T.htm )

    As for ventilation, and when to apply water, man, that's not even something you can come close to have SOPs for...but you can train and practice, and be familiar with the different issues involved...it's very much up to the individual situation.

    Most often, we will be venting the fire window (if not self-venting) and using PPV near simultaneous with the line advancement...the line might be inside a minute or two before PPV is going behind it.

    We rarely have life-hazard type fires -- mostly single family, middle-class people and they can usually say everyone is out. With that in mind, first water may be started from the outside to start the fire attack while interior crew is packing up (Although more and more frequently our first due truck is arriving with 2-3 firefighters already packed up on-board). Other good tactic is to use second story applicator up and in high on the fire to knock down the while the interior team is working to get into position.

    Indirect fog attack is still a very valid option. 1st condition -- not worried about life hazard in the room (otherwise, you have to search it!) 2nd indication -- water supply is iffy -- long time till next tanker due in; somehow your ladder with a whopping 250 gallons on-board was first on scene, etc...indirect is very efficient and will make the water last longer. Open the door, fog the ceiling, close the door and wait a couple minutes and let the fire smother itself in it's steam for awhile...hit it again if needed. 3rd key is either limited risk of pushing the fire into the partitions...or be prepared to deal with it in a balloon structure!

    Probably the single biggest screw up is people who don't know enough to put the wet stuff on the red stuff...don't spray at smoke...spray at fire and keep that nozzle in motion!

    Well, that's enough of my ramblings...
    Matt
    http://pages.cthome.net/mortlake

  3. #3
    FFE3BFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    1st line is usually 1.5" charged line with a 95gpm Rockwood nozzle...second is 1.75" charged line with 180gpm TFT. (Charged lines are similiar to booster lines, but using standard structural hose kept charged at 50psi when rewound).


    Dal90,
    Please explain this a little better. I'm not quite sure what you're stating here. Are these hard rubber lines?

    Mike

    [This message has been edited by FFE3BFD (edited March 29, 1999).]

  4. #4
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Nope...the hose is standard double jacketed rubber lined fire hose.
    When we rewind them, we crack the nozzle a little to keep the hose around 50psi.
    To see a picture of them, go up to http://pages.cthome.net/mortlake/T&T.htm
    when you type it in...be careful, it is case sensitive, so everything is in lower case except the "T&T" part.
    Matt

    [This message has been edited by Dalmation90 (edited March 29, 1999).]

  5. #5
    dp7197
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    There seems to be a trend in some departments ( career and volunteer ) regarding fire flows - or lack therof. This concerns the lowering of the application rate of water until a continuous water supply is established. The thinking is that we must conserve water so we will not run out. Unfortunately we are not doing what we should - aggressively putting the fire out.

    We must remember that the fire service's mission is to save lives and property. One of the best ways to help save someone trapped in a burning structure is to contain and extinguish the fire that is threatening them. People closest to the fire are in the most danger. Quickly containing and/or extinguishing the fire makes conditions more tolerable for those people trapped, and the firefighters trying to save them. In these times of staffing shortages, the fire service is expected to do more with less. This in turn makes the fire department become more efficient.

    Every fire requires a certain amount of gallons per minute (gpm) for extinguishment. We refer to this as the critical rate of flow (crf). A small fire might be of such a size to call it a 100 gpm fire. Mathmatically, if we flow 100 gallons of water, for one minute, the fire should go out. There is another rule of thumb that says that if after 30 seconds of flowing water with no apparent decrease in the fire size, the application rate is not enough. We should not be worried about water damage at this point. Somtimes we are so worried about water damage we fail to see the end result of not flowing enough water - foundations of a completely destroyed structure. Remember, we are trying to put the fire out.

    If a fire requires 100 gpm to extinguish, we must flow 100 gpm. If we have a 500 gallon tank, we have 5 minutes worth of water. If we pulled a booster line and flowed 50 gpm, we could flow water for 10 minutes. That is 5 minutes longer to establish our continuous water supply. Unfortunately, this is the thinking of many departments. What really happens though is this. As you flow 50 gpm, you are not reaching the crf and the fire continues to grow. Pretty soon, the fire would now require 150 gpm, then 200 gpm, then 250 gpm. By this time we have our water supply established and we pull our "big" line. Usually a 1-3/4" line flowing 150 gpm (probably more like 130 gpm). Now the fire has already exceeded this fire flow and we are forced to retreat and flow water from the outside. What was once a small bedroom fire is now a fully involved house. Will we eventually put the fire out? Sure we will - eventually. The house will burn down to the amount of water we are flowing, Saving lives? Yes. Did we run out of water? No. Did we save the house? No.

    I am not going to discuss hose/nozzle combinations as this has been in depth on previous forums. It is important that departments experiment and determine what give them the most fire fighting capability for their staffing levels.

    If a fire requires 100 gpm to extinguish, and we pull a line flowing 200 gpm, will we put the fire out? Almost certainly. Remember, we are not flowing 200 gallons of water. We are flowing 200 gallons of water per minute. We are talking about the RATE of application. Mathmatically, we should only have to flow our handline for 30 seconds. This would equal 100 gallons of water. Are we reaching the critical rate of flow? Yes - overwhelmingly! What we wil see is that by overwhelming the fire, it actually takes less than 30 seconds to extinguish. If it took 20 seconds (probably less) to put the fire out flowing 200 gpm, we would flow about 65-70 gallons of water. Compare that to flowing 100 gallons for a minutes time. What are the advantages? We would only be fighting a "larger nozzle reaction" for 20 seconds compared to 1 minute. When the fire goes out, stop flowing water. The quicker the knockdown, the less water you will use and consequently you will have a smaller amount of "water damage". Remember that the house was "on fire" and we came to "put out the fire". Water can be vacuumed up, fully involved houses must be rebuilt. The disadvantage? The hose might be heavier and the nozzle reaction more, but I would trade 20 seconds of knockdown power for an all-night mutual-aid surround-and -drown any night.

    Rememer it is the rate of application. Do not worry if you only carry 500 (or 250) gallons of water on your pumper (or quint). As long as it is plumbed for it, you can flow 1000 gpm. Calculate the needed fire flow and PUT THE FIRE OUT! If you flow 1000 gpm for 30 seconds, run out of water (gasp!), and do not put the fire out, you certainly were not going to put the fire out flowing 100 gpm for 5 minutes. You found out the results 4.5 minutes sooner and with a lot less effort. That is doing the most with for the number of personnel you have - efficiency. And if you were ever going to put out a fire that required 1000 gpm, flowing 1000 gpm is the only efficient way to do it.

    Remember these 3 thing: Determine the critical rate of flow, make an aggressive interior attack if the situation warrants it, and put the fire out. The results? A better chance of saving lives, less time in harms way, and.....less water damage. Your taxpayers will be happy.

    [This message has been edited by dp7197 (edited March 29, 1999).]

  6. #6
    Tillerman
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    I agree with dp7197, The key is to set your equipment up to work for your department, and if you honestly critique what your department is doing you will find things that could be done more efficiently. Look at todays house fires, we are having a larger fire load, chemicals, bigger homes, bigger fire!! yet we are still fighting these fires the same way they did 25 years ago by using inch and a half hose.

    Reasearch your area and find out what works best for you. Look at the line stretches you have. Do you have houses that sit right on the street or do you have houses set deep off the road and is there accessibility for apparatus. These will help you determine how you stack your hose. Where I ride we have a large population of garden appartments(usually 3 stories) our pumpers are set up so that we can get to the far reaches of these garden apartments, which many a times are 200' from the parking lot. So we made adjustments and have a 400' preconnected 1.75" with 15/16" slug tips. yet we did not want all large lines so we have 2 preconnected 1.75" at 150' , 1 250' 1.75 preconneced, and 1 300' 2" preconected line. We also leave ourselves open for real big water with 200' of 2.5" dry load. This seems to work for our area, It may not work for everyone but I am not saying to try ours, but instead do a little preplanning and find out what will work for you!!

    Thanks for your time and good luck!!
    Tillerman

  7. #7
    FFE3BFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Dal90,
    Thanks for clearing the smoke. It's an interesting set-up you have but, I have to agree with dp7197, you hit-it hard and hit-it fast. If your going to drag a line into a building, it better be able to do the job. A 200 gpm line with a 500 gal tank gives you two minutes of flowing time. (I can do the math, but lets be realistic) If you can't make any progress in two minutes, you need to go with a bigger flow. A 95 gpm line is almost like dragging a booster line into a building. Just a thought.

    Mike

  8. #8
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Right tools for the right job...95gpm is more than adequate for most fires in residences...it's also being backed up by or worked along with a 1.75" line rigged to flow from 95-180gpm.

    The charged lines let us initiate flow fast -- if we only need 50' of line, we only pull 50' and start flowing as soon as the nozzle hits door/window...If the 1.5" and 1.75" can't knock down the fire, they can stop extension while we gear up for the big guns -- the preconnected 2.5", 3" master streams, and ladder pipes.

    1.5" @ 95gpm + 1.75" and 135gpm gives us 5 minutes of water (we carry 1200 gallons)...by the time 5 minutes is up the first round of incoming mutual aid is arriving each with 1000+ gallons so we can scale up to the 500+ flow range. If it's a serious fire, around the 10 minute mark we will have a laid line established, and boost the flow to 1000+ gallons.


  9. #9
    SBrooks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Dalmation 90-Nice webpage lots of interesting stuff. I like those 1.5&1.75" reels, but have a question. How often do you have to pull all 200' of charged 1.5" off? I think that after about 100' of charged line hits the ground, you start to lose the speed advantage over a dry shoulder load (especially in the 150-200' range). Though I'd sure rather have a 150' 1 1/2" reel than any other booster reel or bumper line.

    Also, I assume that the hose is a single section. Do you have a problem with the hose collapsing as it sits in the station? How about the reel leaking or the hose unwinding at higher pressures (200 psi+)?

    Also, for other firefighters too:
    How do you feel about different attack line setups: 200' Speedload, triple lay, flat load, etc. Consider maneuverability to, not just which one can be pulled in a straight line from the bed accross the parking lot.

  10. #10
    ka
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Mortlakes charged soft hose reels are on several hundred rigs in the LA area for several decades. It works just fine. You don't have to pull all the hose off to use them, just like a hard booster reel. Hose lengths are 50's and 100's. You can extend the line as needed. It is not as fast as a shoulder load but then again it can't be pulled wrong, nt loaded properly, the firefighter cannot forget to pull a loop, or snagged either. A combination of loads should beused to address the needs of a community.


  11. #11
    Dalmation90
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    ka pretty much got it right (eek...I'm agreeing fully with ka?)
    Our own tests going back to the fifties showed we could pull 150' of 1.5" charged line in the time it took to pull a 150' of dry preconnect, untangle it, and charge...the advantage being if you only need 75' of hose, it's quicker! Most of our trucks carry Mattydale crosslays in addition to a reel, and I've seen enough Hose Spaghetti over time to figure those numbers are still valid!

    We carry 200' on the reel mainly because it fits...the hose is standard 50' lengths with standard threaded fittings...no problems with leaks over time except when the nozzle leaks, so we try to keep good nozzles on them!

    In my humble opinion...the one mistake we did make on the current Engine-Tank was giving up all the small, dry preconnects...if we need additional lines, we usually work from stair packs...I think in hindsight I would have liked a single long 1.75" (say, 300' maybe)(or at the risk of being creative, 250' of 2" with a 50' 1.75" leader) preconnect to go along with everything else, in between the 150/200' long reels and the 200' 2.5" and 300' 3" preconnects (3" goes to a master stream)

  12. #12
    Firehose
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    We have a new pumper being built by Luverne that has the smallest (1-3/4 100')precon on the front bumper with 2-1 3/4 200' speedlays, 1-200' 2" crosslay, 1-2 1/2" 200' crosslay, and a 250' 3" blitz rear precon, all with automatic elkharts. This combination allows us to select the appropriate line as the situation dicitates.
    Ill let you know how this works out after delivery.

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