1. #1
    squadee
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default NEW FORCIBLE ENTRY TECHNIQUES

    Any new forcible entry techniques being used by anyone? Like to hear about them anything would be appreciated please send E-Mail to
    squadee@hotmail.com thanks brothers,
    Tony GARY,IN SQUAD#4

  2. #2
    Christian Ulrich
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Hey Squadee, It is hard to know if I have any "new" ideas. Are you compiling techniques? If so, why not publish what you have, then we can see what is known or new! One thing I am very interested is learning more about is the possible use of plastic explosives for forcible entry. All I know is that apparently this stuff can be fairly focused, and if it is good enough for thieves to use, then certainly with special training fire departments could use it on the large commercial/security type doors. (For instance if the explosive can be placed and exploded within 30 seconds, versus several minutes of saw cutting, sure sounds like a possibility. Since some of the same considerations would apply. ie, saws create sparks, so that is an issue. Saws require personnel to be right up against the door/wall of the fire building. Placing an explosive could take what, 30 seconds, then you back off and blow it! I just don't anything about explosives, this is just an idea, for better or worse til proven otherwise! Thanks for taking the initiative.

  3. #3
    DD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Christian;

    There used to be a forcible entry device on the market called "Jet Axe", if my recall is correct. It contained a directional explosive charge. I don't remember the manufacturer or distributor and never did see it except in catalogs. It was probably a
    civilian version of a military device. There
    is probably someone who has had experience with it. What about it guys, does anyone know more about it?

  4. #4
    mfgentili
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Hi guys,
    I'll probably sound old fashioned and non- progressive here but I will settle for a good set of irons (flat head axe and halligan tool) and a well trained crew for most forcible entry jobs required on the fire ground. These simple tools, used correctly, will force most doors and windows encountered and there is never a problem of starting them up or running out of gas. Of course, there is always an exception such as high security doors and locks. In these situations, each case must be looked at and handled individually and with the appropriate tool to do the job. In some instances, it may be easier to breech a wall than force a door so keep all options in mind. I don't, however, find myself leaning toward the explosives idea. We'd probably injure more firefighters because of a lack of proper training. Remember, the military does not allow just any soldiers to handle explosives and I don't know that the fire service has the resources to fund special explosive ordinance teams. Another concern I have is building stability and what type of structural damage we may cause. I may be sounding overly cautious here but I don't know enough about explosives to endorse their use so I'll stick with the old reliables on this issue.

    ------------------
    mfg
    www.ci.new-bedford.ma.us/PSAFETY/FIRE/firemain.htm

    http://home.fireservice.com/local841/


  5. #5
    Hollywood
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    To tell you the truth. I've forced more doors with a short-handled sledge than anything else.
    Dave

  6. #6
    tydon
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    Soory to sound sarcastic.... but we as firefighters, are we not supposed to prevent explosions?

    I mean, really, with the hydraulic tools most deptments have, at least (if they are lucky) they have a ten dollar sledge and a two hundred dollar halligan, to enter a locked door. They should be able to force there way through most things, in time.

    We are lucky if we can convince our managers to give us an axe! Ever cut through a steel door with an axe?

    Use what you have or what your department can afford.

    Tydon

    [This message has been edited by tydon (edited June 23, 1999).]

  7. #7
    Jason Ranger
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    First, I take exception to the statement that the military does not let just anybody use explosives -- they often hand this stuff out like it's water. Second, little training is required for this type of close proximity breaching- no special teams required. We have been using a product called Explosive Cutting Tape (ECT) for heavy metal doors, roll down gates and just about everything else. Speed is the benefit here. Less than 10 seconds is our standard. Little worry about overpressure blowing down the building and minimal risk to personel. Cost would be the real selling factor. A hand full a dollars for a door to $100+ for a roll down. For an external entry this is our answer-- wouldn't want to take this explosive into a fire building.

  8. #8
    K A
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    An M & M hook, K22, DeWalt drill, and a Hawk 2 get us through almost every door, if not the partner 650/Da Ax does

  9. #9
    R.Marley
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Christan,

    Most of the explosive based products for firefighting operations have been pulled from the market (probably liability issues). The Jet-Axe was in fact a directional shaped charge. Directional charges can be pre-made, site filled (with C-4 or something similar), home made from household containers or developed by layering "det-cord" in the correct manner. The main problem with pre-manufactured shaped charges is that one size does not fit all situations, so you get over kill or not "enough bang for the buck". Having used explosives in and outside the military as an EOD Technician and demolition specialist I would sugguest the conventional hand or power tool approach to forced entry(there have been a number of fatality injury, property damage cases when "safe" explosives were used by fire and law enforcement agencies with disastrous results). As a Fire Chief, I would hate to see what would happen if my "firefighting" explosives fell in to the wrong hands and were used by someone for criminal activities. Additionally, we have more than enough to train on now, go with the conventional tools and avoid all the problems.

  10. #10
    STA2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    For what its worth. An 8lb flathead, 36" single piece halligan and a K-12 saw are all you'll need on 90% of your forcible entry situations. From cars to houses to commercial structures. Between the three items above you have it covered. Espaecially on car fires is the saw effective. 2 cuts in an upside down "V" around the pin and your in. Also with security being what it is today, if your irons guy can't get it the saw man can. Most dept.'s let the saws sit and beat their people with swinging the irons just to get in the door. Just something to think about. Be safe.

    Larry

  11. #11
    BielJ
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    We are attempting to gather some information on the best and fastest Forced Entry techniques. Now understand that this is not for general fire fighting use but these techniques would be used in the direct assault on a built up structure -- think of Police SWAT raids. See -- not every bad guy hides in a foxhole or leaves his door unlocked and to spend an excess amount of time standing in a street or hallway while being shot at is not a good thing. We have seen all the recent publications and several firefighting videos but are
    interested in learning anything that you care to share. Doors, windows, walls, ceilings / floors and fences / gates are our main obstacles. Looking for what works for you and related tricks of the trade & related nuances. How much equipment weighs, its size and multipurpose uses are the determining factors of our tool selections. Short (24'' 8lbs.) and long (36'' 10 lbs.) handled sledges, Halligans (24'') and (30''), A-tools and K tools, 18'' & 36'' bolt cutters and rotary power saws are some of the items at our disposal. Has any had a need or any success with exothermic cutting?

    Thanks for you reply,
    Bielj@soc.mil

  12. #12
    gp13
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have to agree with STA 2 we use primarily those three as well. We are a large urban area and have the gammut of forcible entry needs!

  13. #13
    Mike C
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    A bent pice of welding rod and a wire and occassionally a cordless electric drill opens all commercial doors in town.

  14. #14
    bgilmore07
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Hey, sorry to digress slightly, but with all of the mentioning of Jet-Axes, I have am on a quest: Does anyone know where I could find a Jet-Axe? I do not want an active one, I am in search of an authentic-looking inert model for display purposes. If anyone knows the manufacturer and could tell me, I would be grateful.

  15. #15
    Terry Storer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Boy you folks sure stirred some memories when you mentioned the JetAxe. Several years ago we used the JA at a regional fire school.
    We successfully breached several wooden walls
    and fiberglass doors. On our last evolution the crew placed the JA on the side of a 2 story wood frame building. They did not do a good placement survey. This resulted in placing the JA over a chimney covered by the outside wall. WOW !!! the noise was terrific and the styrofoam JA packaging parts went for blocks. 2 FF's completed aerial ladder "bailout" in record time. And 3 university instructors were last seen headed home on the interstate. The only thing not changed was the building and the chimney. St. Florian was watching out for us as no one was injured, though many had ringing ears for days. That's my JetAxe story.

    Terry Storer,FF/EMT-P

  16. #16
    Jason Ranger
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    O.K. here are my tools on hand: 2 x 8 lb. short handled sledges, 2 x 24'' - 30'' haligan tools, a K-12 power saw with metal cutting blade and an A-tool. Four men on hand to affect the entry.
    The Problem: From the out side I see metal double doors with a common center jamb, assumed to open with panic bars, three hinges each door, mounted in a solid metal frame set into a single brick veneer on cinder block building- no windows in sight. Think of the back side of a strip plaza. What is the fastest way in?

  17. #17
    K A
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    What is the fastest way in?


    a cordless drill, a piece of welding rod and 10 seconds and you're in

  18. #18
    DD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KA; I suppose the drill is to go through the tumblers. Is the welding rod used someway to
    turn the latch? Please explain.

  19. #19
    K A
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The post said:

    From the out side I see metal double doors with a common center jamb

    So 32 inches off the ground, waist level drill a 3/8" hole and stick an l shaped piece of welding rod throughthe hole and operate the panic hardware. 10 seconds, you're in.

  20. #20
    DD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks to KA for the tip. I would never have thought of that method of operating the hardware.

  21. #21
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KA - what's a Hawk 2?

  22. #22
    Jason Ranger
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    O.K another question for ya'll. After having used several different sized haligan tools on a couple of operations the office is at odds. Size (weight & mobility) vs. utility. We all know that the longer lever is key but who really wants to carry a 42'' haligan tool. We have 24'', 30'', 36'' & 42'' tools. What I would like to see posted is some failure stories of short tools to get a feel of what thsy do not work on and some success stories of a really hardened obstacle done with any sized tool.

  23. #23
    Q1LT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    On non-fire incidents, we use a door jam spreader made by SVI (SuperVac). Cost is $140.00. We place them between the door jams level with the lock. Manually spread the jam and push the door in. Minor damage to if any and the door can be secured. It has worked get for us.

    ------------------
    "PRIDE OF THE SOUTHSIDE"
    Where duty calls, there you will find us!

  24. #24
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    $1.95 for a shove knife..thats so simple! Also a good vise grip and a flathead screwdriver will get you into most commercial storefront locks.

  25. #25
    cacfpd
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Why go through the door?
    Most modern security doors are tough, but they are often put into walls that can easily be breeched with the common irons. Don't beat yourself to death on a door when you can make your own.
    When going through the wall though you must consider Electric wires (yea the utility company will be there in about 30 minutes) and if what you are going to do will cause structural collapse.

    As to the posts reguarding Jet-Ax, Although I have never seen one. I have heard reports of them exploding in storage in the firehouse. Why? I don't know. They are probably breaking down from age and improper storage, but who wants to sleep on a bomb.

    Be safe

    Dave

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