Thread: High Rise water supply
06-04-1999, 12:13 AM #1tydonFirehouse.com Guest
High Rise water supply
Can anyone give me information on high rise water supply where there is no stand pipe systems within the structure?
Has anyone used 4" hi vol hose layed up stairwells to reduce the friction loss up to seven or more floors?
We have had little experience in fires which are in high rise situations and would apprieciate any feed back you could give.
I belong to an industrial department and we have a few buildings which do not have standpipe systems and in one case one building has a standpipe system up to the 4th floor. The floors within this structure are between 20 to 30 feet apart up to at least 7 floors.
We have had fires within these structures but luckily we put them out with extinguishers.
Thank you in advance;
06-04-1999, 09:57 PM #2Halligan84Firehouse.com Guest
I believe Philadelphia had to do that maneuver with 5" at the Meridian Place Fire a number of years ago after the loss of the building's fire pumps. It would seem to take quite a bit of time and manpower.
I work in an industrial plant too, but our standpipe/sprinkler coverage seems to be more comprehensive. You should consider not only friction loss, but elevation, alot of the LDH is rated for 185 psi, you will need at least that to get to the upper areas of these buildings. Is an aerial device on the outside possible? Kinda like a portable standpipe. What type of building are you in? What is it used for? Is there any way the company would consider expanding the sprinklers? In buildings like ours, the insurance companies are usually pretty interested in that.
06-05-1999, 10:42 AM #3TRUCK 110Firehouse.com Guest
I have had no experiences with your problem, but I did follow up on the Phildephia Experiment. I concur with Halligan; the Phildephia Fire Required mass Manpower useage to put this in place. One thing about this, since I did take a Course on LDH, from the Angus People, is that there is such a Beast as Hi Pressure LDH, but of course it is Alot Heavier. I believe maybe FDNY was experimenting with this due to the Fact of their Sprinkler/Sandpipe Problems getting water to the Upper Floors.
I have seen that Miami has utilized 110' Aerials to accommodate putting Water to the Upper Floors, but positioning and access are their Biggest Problems.
Thanks for the Post..Be Safe
06-07-1999, 01:23 AM #4tydonFirehouse.com Guest
Thank you for the reply!
The two buildings I have a concern with have major potential, actually the buildings either involve pressure vessels on the inside or close by.
The one building we have, houses recovery boilers for our pulp mill, this buiding has a stand pipe for the first three floors on the recovery side of the building, nothing on the power boiler side of the structure.
The other building is our chemical preperations building which we produce the chlorine dioxide used in the bleaching process, we have had fires in both of these buildings, in the recovery side of the power house the crew put it out using fire extinguishers, and with the chem prep fire it came pretty close to an environmental disaster if we didn't stop the fire spred within a fiberglass line heading for the chlorine dioxide storage tanks which could explode if the heat and flames reached the gas vapour. It would have wiped out the whole area.
These two buildings have seven to eight floors which would be very expensive to put in stanpipes, let alone sprinklers, my request for a dry line, pumper stand pipe connection up the crane well was even denied, and that was the cheapest way to solve the water supply problem.
Any way, if you have a suggestion about running supply hose up grade 7+ stories, should we be concerned about separation of the couplings due to the weight, or do we have to tie the hose to the railings to help support the weight?
I really appreciate all the comments and the brotherhood support!
06-07-1999, 10:27 AM #5Dalmation90Firehouse.com Guest
One thing to check on is if the stairs can handle it.
Using rough guesstimates, if a floor is 30' high, that's about 90' of stairs at a 3:1 rise...4" charged will weigh around 6lbs/foot, so you're looking at 540 pounds of weight on each flight...I suspect it'll be OK, but you may want to get you're plant's structural engineer to sign off on it!
06-09-1999, 02:17 AM #6PLAYPIPEFirehouse.com Guest
You could a flying standpipe, an aerial ladder with the ladder pipe assembly attached. Remove tip and attach gated wye. Raise to desired floor. Hook up line off wye. Access can be either through stairway or up ladder depending on fire extent and location.
06-09-1999, 05:36 PM #7Jim M.Firehouse.com Guest
Tydon, I find it hard to believe that this plant can even buy insurance at ANY price with the hazards you describe. Are you sure the plant insurer is aware of how dangerous this stuff is? The cost of plumbing is one heck of a lot cheaper than the potential liability. Unless they are operating naked (no insurance coverage - just the owners deep pockets)???
06-12-1999, 02:48 AM #8tydonFirehouse.com Guest
Our insurance company is quite happy with our company as we are the only pulp mill in British Columbia with it's own live fire training center.
Yes the stairs can take it!
[This message has been edited by tydon (edited June 13, 1999).]
09-14-1999, 01:25 AM #9e33Firehouse.com Guest
The practice of using an aerial device as a standpipe should be carefully evaluated. Commiting the ladder to water supply and not allowing it to move if needed in a rescue can be a bad thing.
09-14-1999, 02:04 AM #10PLAYPIPEFirehouse.com Guest
Well e33 the smart thing to do would be to call for another truck or add one to this assignment since it would be a PREPLAN.
Fighting fire from the outside of occupied structures - bad.
Preplanning the use of an aerial device - good !
09-14-1999, 10:42 AM #11e33Firehouse.com Guest
The outside stretch isan alternative option to the above mentioned ladder use. By stretching lines up the outside, it keeps the aerial free and still can provide water where needed. A rope can be dropped from the desired window or roof to attach to the supply line below and hoist it up. What do you guys think about this? Thats more or less what i was inferring to. We only have access to two ladder trucks in the beginning of fires, some plces only have one. Then the cnsideration to use the ladder as a standpipe is crucial.
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