1. #1
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink August Fire Scenario #2: BBQ Chicken Anyone?


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    Well, ok, so most fire departments don't face this specific building everyday.

    But it's an interesting mental exercise...because it takes a few basic decisions to make a good fire attack. Once you understand the fundemental strategies to do this successfully, you can scale it up or down to many different, more complex buildings.

    Typically a fire begins in the building in the last few days before chicks are moved in. During this time, fresh sawdust is on the floors which is being dried and warmed by kerosene heaters. A heater drops some hot soot on the sawdust, and it ignites.

    The fire will spread slowly at first, burning in the sawdust almost like a duff fire in the woods. But it builds fairly rapidly, and once the fire hits the walls, the fire can intensify quickly.

    Let's assume the owner smells the fire while it's still just in the saw dust, but still by the time of the fire department arrival 5 minutes after 911, you have 30% involvement of one side of the first floor, and extension through the failing single pane windows to the second floor.

    You can use your normal first alarm resources, and tell us what you'd call for additional resources. I guess I'd allow you city boys hydrants, but out here we're usually looking at 2500-5000' to reach the nearest pond.

    Key is going to be where the initial attack goes...as they say, as the first hoseline goes, so goes the fire. Remember, this building is nothing but dry, exposed wood on the interior and the single pane windows are going to break and vent very quickly -- it's going to burn very hot, very fast.

    So, how will you fight this fire?

    Have fun, play hard, stay safe.
    Matt

  2. #2
    K A
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We'd hold the fire to the initial response 2-E's a command and cancel the pair of tender.

    Command would call a defensive attack.

    We'd lay a pair of 5 inch lines in from the pond, the 2nd rig would would go to draft and pump the lines.

    Crews from E-1 and E-2 minus the driver would be used. With 2500 gallons on the first rig we'd pull a pair of 3 inch CAF lines with 2 inch smooth bore tips one to each side door on the ground floor.

    A pair of 2 inch lines with 12 foot peircing nozzles attached would be driven through each side of the building from ground level to the second floor to stop extension guided by an imager to cut the fire off. At this point the fire isn't going anyplace.



  3. #3
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    Hey...I got KA to pull something bigger than an 1.75"

  4. #4
    DD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Matt, what is the exposure situation? We normally see multiple chicken houses and they are located much too close to each other.

  5. #5
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    DD:
    Usually on the older style coops, the exposure isn't too critical...people kept them a 100' or so away from there house, and usually there was just one per farm...

    Now, you get the factory coops, where we have 600x50 buildings with 50' between them, and connectors for the egg conveyors you have a bigger problem! Especially at night if the fire has a head start, and their's propane tanks in between the coops.

  6. #6
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Deck Gun From the outside and some defensive handline placement until fire is knocked down to a size where i was comfortable to send guys in. That dry wood can burn fast and overtake crews...id have to figure it would be a better option to blow the hell outta it from outside first.

    Resources

    Our station (33)= 2 engines, 1000gal each, tanker, 1000 gal, ss truck for support

    Station 32 sends the tanker 4200gal and the ladder, 95' platform with 1500gpm pump.

    If there is fire showing, call south tanker task force which gives us 24,400 gals of water coming from all south county fd's as well as 2 dedicated fill engines. FAST team as well on the confirmation fo fire.

    The 1st due should lay in the driveway (should is key here) and start a tankwater attack as the tanker is dropping the dump tanks and the second ngine is hooking into the line. Thats it really..now we unload the tankers as they drive by and knock it down if we can keep water flowing.

    Fire command operates on f-2, operations will use f-3 and tanker ops (water supply) will use f-4, FAST is on f-5.

    We will special call the CAFS unit from station 48 (neighboring county) and their tanker comes as well on the task force.

  7. #7
    Ledbelly
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    (Well...least the thang don't have a basement...!?)

    I'd have to follow KA and e33's leads...start a deck gun and run out a couple of 2.5" w/OBT and that's all we'd have the men for initially. Use a side door (I'd keep both of initial engines on same side) and (try to?) keep fire in one end of of the Coop; I'd also hesitate to commit anyone very far inside.

    Our initial response would be 1 engine(750g) and ambulance, tanker(2500g), command and rescue. I'd be hollering right away for tanker2(2000g), another engine and for the County to roll their tanker(10,000g, supply only). [But if you're throwing me the bone of a/some hydrants, 1st engine lays in 5" and second brings another lay/another hydrant]

    KA: I like the sound (and feel) of all those lines, how many FFs you run on an engine? We have 3...4 max.

    ONE more thang...what's a pond?
    (just kiddin......!!)


  8. #8
    friday
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Questions- Are there enough chickens still alive to merit running them outside to protect the farmers investment? Are they in cages?

  9. #9
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Re: Are the chickens alive...
    1) They're very sensitive...they'd be dead of shock already. Things like headlights and sirens alone can cause mortality...never mind the sudden changes in temp!
    2) You probably don't have any chickens in the coop...they're most vulnerable in the few days before new chicks move in...the floors are covered by dry sawdust and are being "pre-heated" by the brooder stoves...Once the chicks are in, they urinate wetting the sawdust down, and if the sawdust still catches on fire, they panic and stamp it out as the flutter around.


  10. #10
    Truckie from Missouri
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    "Let's assume the owner smells the fire while it's still just in the saw dust, but still by the time of the fire department arrival 5 minutes after 911, you have 30% involvement of one side of the first floor, and extension through the failing single pane windows to the second floor."

    Ok, ..., 30% involvement of one side of one floor...30% of (75ft * 35ft =)2625 square feet is 787.5 square feet, and (I'm pro NFA) the formula (L * W)/3 gives a needed fire flow of 262.5 gpm. In case I may have niscalculated, I'll round it to 265 GPM needed. This is EASILY attainable from a 2 & 1/2 inch attack line.

    ********

    My company (we're a truck company) is blessed in that we can get the line out and where it needs to go in a big hurry. We arrive with 5 personnel (3 on the truck, one in ambulance, one in tanker. We have 450 gallons of water on the truck; another 2600 on the tanker. Three engines w/ 750 gallons abord and another 2600 tanker coming. We can easily pump a rate of 400 GPM off the tank. Won't last too long, but we can pump it. The tanker driver will set up to nurse feed the truck, and then the driver will assist the attack team.

    My thinking would be to stretch the 2 & 1/2 bomb line to the window issuing the flames. (nozzle choice not important, as long as proper pressure is supplied) A quick sweep down the exterior from the upper window to the lower one, then in the lower window hitting the ceiling to cool the gasses down and sweeping the base of the fire. 30 to 45 seconds at this flow will knock it down. We'd still have some water in the tank, enough to start overhaul.

    We will then be able to extend the line to a 1 & 3/4 and move in to extinguish what's left. A portable ladder to the 2nd floor window, hitting the fire we see from this vantage point, and the job should be pretty much over.

    The engines and other tanker will primarily be used for personnel.

    All that should work, provided the courts managed to overthrow Murphy's Law for the day!

    I considered setting up the ladder pipe, but that takes 5 minutes with our truck, and that time can be better spent elsewhere. The engineer, after setting the pump, could think ahead and start setting the outriggers and perhaps raise the boom, but this task can also be given to one of the engines. Our truck soesn;t have a prepiped deck pipe, so there goes that option. I suppose we could use the ladder pipe still nested as a prepiped deck pipe, but I stil think that would take longer. Besides, if not positioned EXACTLY right, it's not feasible on our truck. The bomb line is much faster.


    ------------------
    Proud Member of IAFF Local 3133!

    Stay safe.
    Ken

  11. #11
    K A
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ---Ok, ..., 30% involvement of one side of one floor...30% of (75ft * 35ft =)2625 square feet is 787.5 square feet, and (I'm pro NFA) the formula (L * W)/3 gives a needed fire flow of 262.5 gpm. ---

    Don't you need to multiply by TWo to get the flow needed for both floors??

  12. #12
    Truckie from Missouri
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KA,

    Good point. I guess I ASSumed that, from the scenario, the extension to the upper floor was minimal. I took it that extension was just starting. That being the ASSumed case, I still think my tactics would work. If both floors are involved, yes, double my math for a flow of 525 GPM. That being the case, it may be worth setting up our truck to use the ladder pipe still nested, and raise the boom later in the operation...

    Thanks for pointing out improper ASSumptions.

    ------------------
    Proud Member of IAFF Local 3133!

    Stay safe.
    Ken

  13. #13
    firefighter60
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well here goes a shot from a rural firefighter. Our first alarm assignment consists of E601(1250/1000), E602(1000/1000),
    T606(2000gal.), E683(1250/1000), E686(1500/1250), T685(3000gal.). First in engine to lay supply line, pull two 1.75" lines and a 2.5" line. Second in engine sets up for drafting operations from drop tanks. Third engine to hit a pond or stream to fill tankers. Fourth engine stands by on scene to act has FAST team or to replace another engine in case of mechanical failure.

    Second alarm called for bringing in at minimum three more tankers (various sizes), one more engine, air supply truck, and any available manpower.

    Main attack to begin from the uninvolved area and push the fire back into the burned area. (Chicks may already be dead but no need to force the farmer to replace the entire building.) Initial attack to be made with the 2.5" line with one 1.75" line on back up(I know you should have the same size line has back up. Have to wait for 2nd. or 3rd engine to get that pulled though.) the other 1.75 goes to exposure protection. As additional resources arrive they will be assigned to either back up the attack or to control exposures.

    ------------------
    David Ferguson
    Lt. Hookstown VFD

  14. #14
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Ok folks:

    Most of you did pretty good...the only one I'm worried about is Truckie...unfortunately with these coops, you can hit them head on, but there's a good chance it will extend to the other half before you get it knocked down, especially with two floors going. And this is no knock against Truckie! It's a classic mistake (and I've seen our guys do it too)...the coops are deceptive how quickly they'll overwhelm a blitz attack.

    The "Text Book" answer is to pick a defensible point, begin there, and work towards the fire. (Well, our Text Book of Chicken Coop Fires anyway)

    In this building, the defensible point is the feed room. We'd pull two handlines, one with a second story applicator you punch into a second floor window and use like a 60gpm sprinkler head to defend the second floor feed room wall on the fire side. The other hand line goes to the first floor...both are worked from the outside mainly. The goal is to keep that wall more or less in tact. You're probably moving about 180gpm at this point. We arrived with 1200gallons, and it takes about 5 minutes for the next Engine-Tanks to start arriving...so we'd probably stick with the handlines. You might use short off/on bursts to conserve water until the fire heavily involves the area you're defending. During this time we'd also be setting up a portable deck gun...soon as the Engine-Tanks on the 1st alarm start arriving, we'd start knocking down the fire from feed room back. Hopefully around the 10 minute mark we'll have a laid line established, or a tanker shuttle will be going and we will finish off the knock down with a ladder pipe.

    The lesson here is to cut off the fire then kill it. If you try to hit this dragon head on, it has a tendency to sneak away and get into the other side of the building.

    Now the 2" and 3" CAFS lines of KAs intrique me...I saw a video of a fire on Monday, the one saving grace of which was seeing the effectiveness of a 2.5" CAFS line being run off our ladder (interesting setup...our ladder was flowing 500gpm water from the ladder pipe, and a 2.5" CAFS line from another department was run halfway up...the ladder pipe helped knock down the fire and cut off extension, the CAFS followed it and extingushed the rest of the fire in that area)

    Matt
    Any other creative ideas out there?

  15. #15
    Truckie from Missouri
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I don't take it as a knock. Please do the same.

    Your original post did not say that the second floor was going.

    *****************
    to quote from the top:
    "Let's assume the owner smells the fire while it's still just in the saw dust, but still by the time of the fire department arrival 5 minutes after 911, you have 30% involvement of one side of the first floor, and extension through the failing single pane windows to the second floor."
    *****************

    Looks to me like autoexposure. Sure, there's fire, but the main source is still on the ground floor. Put out the heat source, and the steam travelling along the fire-born air currents will have an effect on the rest of the fire.

    I wonder, by the use of your 60gpm sprinkler head, are you acknowledgeing that the 2nd floor isn't going as hard as the first? Curious.

    I openly question the "short bursts to conserve water" theory. To me that is a cop-out. FLOW RATE extinguishes fires. Flow rate also protects exposures. The affore mentioned rate of 180gpm will protect the interior exposures, until such time as the fire is now at a size that 180gpm won't protect them (720 gpm is now needed on the fire). The best way to conserve water is to use the rate needed, the FIRST time, and the fire will go out within a minute.

    I am in agreement with the pick your point of fire stoppage and hold it there. Very similar to a strip mall. I reckon I shoulda thought of that, but I don't get to too many coop fires. Our rural areas are being swallowed fast by urban sprawl.

    Thank you and have a good day.

    ------------------
    Proud Member of IAFF Local 3133!

    Stay safe.
    Ken

  16. #16
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hey Ken:

    The 60gpm is kinda low, but that's the flow of the applicator, and it's pretty effective. You get it up as high and in as you can so you don't create a "venturi" affect and push more fresh air in...I've seen people just bring up to the window, and then they work like using a hose stream to vent a building in reverse (if that sentence makes any sense)

    It's a concession that the part of the coop on fire is gonna burn. The bursts are just being used to wet down the interior wall that's exposed to keep it's integrity up.

    One thing that is just plain difficult to explain is just how fast these things take off, and if you don't get the whole fire on the first shot, you're toast. And I like your analogy to a strip mall...you maybe able to blitz and put out the original store, but in the meantime the fire's taken control of the ceiling and extends to the other stores. Blitz the first floor of a coop, and the second floors gonna be raging before you control the first.

    A recent drill we burned one of these old boys, no windows in it, and wooden pallets put along one inside wall (the goal was to have a more intense fire on one side so the building would collapse that way and into a field, than fall away and into some trees)

    5 minutes after the first puffs of smoke came out of the coop, fire was showing from the center. 5 minutes later both floors were fully involved...I guess I wasn't clear that the second floor was already starting on fire .

    Blitz is often a very good tactic...but it can be very embarrasing in a rural area...our first due truck carries 1200 gallons --> blitz at 350gpm, and we'll be without water for 1.5-2 minutes on average till the next truck arrives, and if you haven't gotten control of the fire you're screwed at the rate these buildings go up. Now once the rest of the first alarm starts arriving, we can boost to 750gpm+ flows, so we conserve water and confine the fire then kill it. I do wish sometimes we could pull in with a 3000 gallon tanker initially, especially with a CAFS system, and you'd probably see radically different tactics!

    Ok...anyway I said there's a good lesson in these buildings and this is it:
    It's OK to loose the original fire building...it's absolutely unacceptable to loose the exposures! Here, we're moving that into the structure -- we can loose the original part of the building, but #1 priority is to make sure the part that isn't involved is standing afterwards -- it's an interior exposure. In a house fire, it's the same principle of getting the first hoseline to protect the stairs -- and often that means going past the stairs and knocking down the fire, but whatever you do, protect them stairs! In an apartment complex, isolate that fire then move in for the kill...don't use tactics that attack the seat of the fire only to push it into other apartments.

    Stay safe everyone!
    Matt

  17. #17
    Truckie from Missouri
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Matt,

    I see your point now. Thanks.

    ------------------
    Proud Member of IAFF Local 3133!

    Stay safe.
    Ken

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