Thread: LAYING LINE
12-23-1999, 05:57 PM #1NAMBONKFirehouse.com Guest
Hello. Just looking at other FD's SOP's and noticed that there are alot of departments that do not require the first due wagon to put hose on the street for alarms. My department's SOP's are that the first due wagon WILL stop at the nearest fire hydrant and WILL stretch in to side A of the reported property on fire. What do you do? N.K.
[This message has been edited by NAMBONK (edited December 23, 1999).]
12-23-1999, 06:48 PM #2benson911Firehouse.com Guest
Why? Are you in a hydranted area all the time? How much water is in the tank? How close is the second due, usually? How many FF per engine? How far apart are your hydrants - 300', 500'?
Where I work, the second in engine is pretty close behind most of the time, so the second due gets the supply unless the hydrant is less than 50' from the first in engine. This frees up the first engine to do a good size up, pull the preconnects, get tank water started, and enact a rescue if necessary. If we stop to drop our line, we lose a lot of time and one member of our 3 man crew. If we are first in to one of our areas where the hydrants aren't in yet, we drop the line at the driveway, or at a predetermined drop point to allow the second in truck to relay pump to us, or a tanker to supply us.
I can see why they want the first in engine to drop its line - it guarantees they get water and that's one less thing for the IC to have to consider, but is the loss of time and manpower worth it? I've put out a lot of fire with just tank water - but we have 750 or 500 gallons on our engines. Your FD may have its reasons for the line, we have our reasons not to.
12-23-1999, 07:53 PM #3Lieutenant GonzoFirehouse.com Guest
In our Department, the first due engine starts fire attack, the second due engine takes the hydrant and lays in. We have one area with low water pressure, the second due engine reverse lays from the fire to the hydrant and pumps from there. If the street is a dead end, the first due engine will drop lines for the second engine to pump into. We have a good water supply system, I can think of only two areas that do not have hydrants, one is a private road by the lake, the other is a farmhouse about a half mile up a private road. It has a pond on the property for water supply. These are guidelines, each situation can be different.
Take care and be safe...Lt. Gonzo
12-23-1999, 08:21 PM #4Dalmation90Firehouse.com Guest
This is one that's really up to your area and what works for you!
My district has 8 hydrants...average 2000' spacing (but fed by a 16" main )
Even on long driveways, usually the first ET will go right in to fire attack, the Ladder will follow them, then the second Engine-Tank lays in a supply line so the line doesn't block the ladder out. The driveway line can either be fed by tankers or our engine laying to a water source.
It works for us...but it must be nice when you have hydrants pushin' water at ya all the time!!!
12-24-1999, 01:06 AM #5LedbellyFirehouse.com Guest
My department is about the same as Benson's and Lt Gonzo's. However, I guess we recognize a slight distinction... if responding to automatic fire alarm, 1st engine goes to scene and the 2nd stages at hydrant; if reported structure fire, 1st engine has option of laying in at officer's discretion (ie, amount of fire/smoke showing) or can proceed to scene and initiate attack while 2nd eingine makes the lay. Our 2nd engines probably arrive in under 5 mins (max) and there are hydrants easily located.
12-24-1999, 09:17 PM #6SBrooksFirehouse.com Guest
'Round here we've got 100+psi, 1000gpm hydrants every 300 or so feet. For fires, first engine lays in from hydrant or corner, taking their man with them; The Truck Comes in, and the second engine picks up the hydrant and pumps the supply line. The process is then repeated with another two engines and a truck for side three of the building. OH, yeah, a squad fits in there somewhere out of the way.
Auto alarms, etc. usually have the engines staged to lay line at a moment's notice.
12-29-1999, 08:13 PM #7smokeaterFirehouse.com Guest
leadbelly is right on, How many times does your deptartment lay a line from first arriving truck and find out that there is no fire or only very small one?
If you do roll up to a working house fire, do you believe that a fast entry and knock down is not important for the survival of victims?
Are you one of the few dept. that have planty of manpower to dedicate a man at the plug?
Most knock down can be done with tank water, if you have a good response time.
If you took the time to catch a plug do you believe it will be fast enough to keep the fire from getting out of control?
STRIKE FAST , STRIKE HARD
12-30-1999, 12:05 AM #8SBrooksFirehouse.com Guest
Whoops! maybe I was unclear. Most of our engines come with three...the firefighter in the back will drop the layout section (a hose finish of about 50' bundled) at the hydrant and get back on board. The second engine will pump the first engines line, and the fourth engine will pump the third engine's line.
This is necessary due to the many narrow streets and dead ends in our neighborhoods and apartment complexes. The fewer engines at the fire building, the more room we have for trucks. Most of our fires are put out with tank water, but if they're not, we're always ready with the supply line. This also means we end up racking hose for most of our calls, but it's only 3" and it's usually less than 400'.
I'm thinking that most of the departments that use 5" have the second engine lay line, while most of the department that use 3" are more liberal and consistant with dropping their supply lines. Just a thought. Might have to do with hydrant spacing and tank size as well.
01-09-2000, 02:34 AM #9ScottN7ZTIFirehouse.com Guest
On our dept, we do not take a hydrant with the first doe engine, that is partialy due to the fact the we have 1500 gallons on the first in, and 99% of the time, thier is another 1500 right behind us, which if thier is a working fire, they will take the hydrnt.
This allows the first in engine, to start attacking the fire, and to initiate any rescue that need to be done at that time, it would be a bummer to spend that extra time in taking a hydrant, and then finding out that it was not big enough to need the hydrant.
I think this also better prepares us for rural fires where thier are no hydrants, we more effectivly learn to use what water we have on board, untill more gets thier, you always arrive on scene, knowing exactly what you have to work with, weather is be in the county of in the city.
01-09-2000, 09:54 AM #10Lt.ToddFirehouse.com Guest
Here in Atlanta our Engines our set up for reverse lays , the first Eng on scene drops two 3 inch lines, one dry the other connected to a water thief and two 1 3/4 hand lines.The Eng then lays out to the plug and gives tank water first .In Atlanta we have a plug every 500 ft, so this usually works out to very moderate hose lays. We also have several Engines with 1200 ft of 5 inch. They will usally lay out in a forward fashion.
This is just standard , I never leave the station thinking, OK were always going to lay this way , I let the fire, exposures , and life safety tell me how Iam going to lay out .Ive seen fires that could controlled by a water can and a engine has just layed out 2/1000ft 3 inch lines ,and Ive seen 2 1 3/4 lines on the ground when a master stream is needed.Being flexible allows you to make the best decsion.
01-10-2000, 02:03 PM #11Tower59Firehouse.com Guest
01-10-2000, 02:08 PM #12Tower59Firehouse.com Guest
THat is one of the best posts I Have seen on this site. To many people are book or sop
driven. It is great to be prepared and practice but not every situation is Back and white. To many times we forget to improvise and get the job done. Most people do not like that word to be used in frie service, but cominf from US Army that is what they teach you. If the Book is grey in that area make a command decision and stand by it do not lay 1200 feet of five inch into a house. and have occupant come out and tell you their smoke alarm is malfunctioning!
Great post Lt Todd
01-13-2000, 01:30 PM #13BC WhiteFirehouse.com Guest
I agree with the previous posts, none are wrong, this decision should be based on staffing, tank size, time of second due company, fire size, life safety and so on.
I operate using my ambulances. We currently have 3 stations (#4 here before the end of the year). HQ is between the 2 sub-stations. Each sub has a 3 man ALS Eng. and a BLS ambulance staffed with 2 FF/EMT's. The amb's carry SCBA's and basic hand tools.
When the sub's are 1st due, their amb. gets out first, spots the plug, and drops off the tech. (passenger)at the plug and pulls well ahead of the fire building. The driver then packs up to meet the Eng at the fire building.
The Eng. stops at the plug, the tech. grabbs the supply line, wrapps the plug, and sends the Eng. to the fire building.
This gives the Eng. officer a few options:
-Complete the water supply (tech charges plug)
-Use the amb. crew to pull 2nd line for search/attack/exposures, put a 2.5" in operation, push hose at entry point for attack line, or throw ladder for 2nd means of egress.
This allows the officer to go fast attack, and/or maintain 2 in 2 out.
I think of the 1st. due Eng & amb as a 5 man Eng company. If the amb crew remains dedicated to operations and another is needed, I just call for another.
We only drop supply lines with smoke showing or working fire. By sending the amb ahead after dropping off the tech, the fire, which may not be in the view of the Eng, can be confirmed, and a line laid.
This is a common drill for our companies, and yes.....each incident is different. It's a basic plan.
No matter how your department establishes a supply, the key is that everyone knows what is expected. When I detail people from HQ (where we don't have an amb) to a sub station, they know what to do based on where they sit on the apparatus.
Key factor: The company officer. They earned the responsibility to be in the seat, and to make decisions. They know what their resources are and how to use them to meet the tactical objectives. All I ask is that they let me know a quick action plan, how many people are in the building.
As far as time to get this done, training clearly makes a difference. Hit it 3 times a month or more and you will see the results.
My people have been working with this concept for 3 years now and it has proven successful.
01-13-2000, 01:49 PM #14Thomas W. TyreeFirehouse.com Guest
It really depends on how you want to approach your fires. On my engine, I am always going to try and get my own water supply. If it takes a few more minutes, so be it. Who knows how close their next due really is. Murphy's Law can and most likely will take effect and you will be left high and dry if you don't make your own connections. We always lay dual 3" lines, 1 of which is connected to the water thief with 2- 1 3/4" attack lines, the other is dry with a hose clamp attached. We also lay a 2 1/2" line for exposures. You can set up your bed anyway you need to, whatever works for you is best. The way we do it, the next due engine or truck can man the lines that your first due crew is not using.
01-13-2000, 11:27 PM #15SKEETER243Firehouse.com Guest
let's face it, in the early stages of the fire is when we are going to be the most effective we can be. Seconds DO count. The situation presenting will dictate wheter a line gets laid or not. Perhaps we are very forunate, but nearly every structure has a Chief arriving ahead of the first due engine. It's his call, if we can make a difference the engine comes directly to the scene and rapid deployment coupled with 1000 gal of tank water usually will handle 99% of the stopable fires. If it doesn't, the second due also has 1000 gal on board and can pick-up the hydrant on the way in. This may require the first-in crews to back out until the second due gets there, but at least they have the opportunity to make an aggressive, rapid attack. On the other hand, if it's well involved on the Chief's arrival, then water supply lines are laid immediately. You must be flexible, no hard-n-fast rule can apply to every situation.
RESPOND WITH PRIDE, COME HOME ALIVE.
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