1. #1
    BFD 210
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Low Pressure Break Apart Nozzles

    I am interested in any information about break apart nozzles. I am extremely interested in a nozzle that would be able to flow 185 at 50psi nozzle pressure so that the pump operator wouldnt have to worry about whether the firefighter was using the fog or the slug tip. Also a Brand name/model number if one of these exists.
    Also any pros or cons to these types of nozzles would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks

    Stay safe

    [This message has been edited by BFD 210 (edited January 07, 2000).]

  2. #2
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    BFD210
    /I am extremely interested in a nozzle that would be able to flow 185 at 50psi nozzle pressure so that the pump operator wouldnt have to worry about whether the firefighter was using the fog or the slug tip./

    As you probabley know a 15/16th does this. IF the slug tip is this size that would be your flow, if you want you fog tip to have the same flow and pressure for the pump operators benifit, then why even have the slug tip at all?

    The flows and pressures would be the same (Great for pump operators) thus you gain no more application rate by switching to a slug tip.

    Pleaes clarify if I misunderstood your request.

    Thanks
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc.


    [This message has been edited by KEA (edited January 07, 2000).]

  3. #3
    BFD 210
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    What I would like to do is to give the firefighter a choice between application devices. If the situation dictates a fog nozzle they would have it, i.e. flammable liquid,gas fires or if it dictates the slug they would have the choice,i.e.structure fires. This would allow the firefighter the choice at the nozzle and that would be the only decision that would have to be made because the chauffer would not have to worry about adjsting his discharge pressures.

    And the question is not whether to have the slug tip at all it is whether to have the fog tip at all.

    Stay safe

  4. #4
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    /If the situation dictates a fog nozzle they would have it, i.e. flammable liquid,gas fires or if it dictates the slug they would have the choice./

    Considering the application described is very specific, I would simply have a combination nozzle on one of the pre-connects. Assuming the front line officers know what they're doing they could make the call as to what line to pull for the applicatoins described.

    From what I've seen in the field, the simplest solution creates the least confusion. As an instructor I'm sure you can appreciate that.

    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc.

  5. #5
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    BFD210,

    I know Elkhart makes a 185gpm at 75psi but I am not sure on the 50 psi.

    We have used a low pressure fog with a slug tip for the past few years now. We started out with 1 3/4" lines with a 200 at 75 psi combo tip backed with a 15/16" smoothbore. We then went to 2" hose with the same combo nozzle but with a 1 1/4" slug tip. Of course with both of these set-ups going to the slug meant changing pump pressures. But it never seemed to be a problem here anyways.

    I can tell you this, with the low pressure nozzle you get a straight stream more similar to a smoothbore. The water drops are bigger and the footprint left by the stream is more pronounced. I could be happy with just the combo nozzle because my FF's have been trained to use a straight stream for inside fire attack.

    Good luck, just remember to do what works for you, not what somebody tells you will work for you.

  6. #6
    SBrooks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I tend to agree with Fyredup - what's the point of having to spin a tip off just to get the same flow out of a different nozzle? If that was the case you'd probably never take off the combo tip. I think a better application would to find a pair of tips that work with the same discharge pressure (on a preconnect) but give different flows, this would keep it easy for the MPO but still give the hose team a USEFUL choice. For example consider:

    a 200' 1 3/4" line with a 100psi automatic and a 1 1/8" slug tip. For calculations I figured that this line would have 25 psi friction loss at 100 gpm.

    engine pressure / auto flow / sb flow
    155 / 150 / 220 @ 35psi
    185 / 180 / 238 @ 40psi

    you could do the same sort of thing with low pressure fog nozzles, however you will get less of an increase in flow when you remove the fog nozzle.
    (you of course would have to verify these with a flow meter)
    200 1 3/4"

  7. #7
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    (you of course would have to verify these with a flow meter)
    AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!

    No matter what type of nozzles you choose, please flow test them with flowmeters. By using the flowmeter at the inlet side of your engine you can pull any line and establish the desired flow and simply record your engine discharge pressure for that line.

    Doing it this way keeps it simple and the concern of friction loss or nozzle pressure is a mute point considering the flow is already known for a given engine pressure.

    In the case of automatics its advisable to use an inline pressure gauge to ensure the nozzle is regulating within the 100 +-15 psi range (75psi +-15-psi for low pressure automatics)at least annually. More often if your not doing the reccomended servicing.

    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc.

    [This message has been edited by KEA (edited January 16, 2000).]

  8. #8
    Rod Carringer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Also, be aware now that 100psi automatics are only one small portion of nozzles that can meet the new NFPA #1964 standard criteria. The day of the 100psi nozzle pressure is OVER. That is the reason that automatics are now and have been made for some time in either 75psi, or dual pressure operational mode 100psi/55psi. This change in nozzle operating pressures which are acceptable under the standard will put a whole new twist on high rise operations, such as those called our in NFPA 14 and elsewhere that only the 100psi operating pressure was accepted. It's a whole new day for fire ground hydraulics. Kirk has promoted max flow with his Vindicator and Paulie with his "big paulie" for some time, and now there is a stadard that can be used that is realistic in it representation of the typical fireground hydraulic operations. If you haven't read through it yet, the new #1964 is an outstanding document. Akron Elkhart and TFT all spent a lot of time and effort to make it representative.

  9. #9
    thewarthog
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We use exactly what you are looking for. We decided on Elkhart. We use a pistol grip shutoff with a 15/16 slug (sabre) tip. The fog is a Elkhart Chief 150gpm at 50 psi. We run a PDP of 140 psi. It works out that the NP is higher than 50 but thats OK.

    Our motto is make it easy and this works well for us. Unfortunately, most of the time the guys forget to remove the fog tip. It would be nice if the SS tip could be in front of the fog.

  10. #10
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    I know this post has nothing to do with the original question but unfortunatly RC does not post an e-mail.

    Rod Carringer:
    /It's a whole new day for fire ground hydraulics. Kirk has promoted max flow with his Vindicator and Paulie with his "big paulie" for some time, and now there is a stadard that can be used that is realistic in it representation of the typical fireground hydraulic operations./

    I get the impression that you do not promote max flow on the fire ground? Is that correct?

    For the record, we do not promote max flow with the Vindicator. To do so would not be practical considering the Hose would max out long before the nozzle!

    All that aside, I would encourage you to talk to your boss, President of TFT (Forum Name: NOZZLE) regarding his post on one of the forums not to long ago (Time to buy New Nozzles). It apears that his beliefs contradicts yours.

    I posted his comments so you wouldn't have to search for it.

    "The whole purpose of automatic nozzles was to allow the pump operator to set a maximum pressure set by SOP to deliver the MAXIMUM flow that the department desires."

    Seams logical to me!

    Stay Safe
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc.

  11. #11
    Truckie from Missouri
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    I have used the Elkhart "Boston Pipe" (I think that's what it was called. It was a pistol grip with a 15/16 slug tip and a 150GPM fog @ 75psi fog head. Worked great, and pumping was simple. We ran these nozzles on 200ft preconnects. Pumped at 130psi. Worked like a charm. We started off with the fog heads, and if we needed more punch, close the bale, spin off the tip, and commense to whooping on the fire!

    ------------------
    Proud Member of IAFF Local 3133!

    Stay safe.

    Kenny

    ***DISCLAIMER***
    All postings I have &/or will post are strictly my opinions. I am representing only myself here, not the IAFF, Local 3133, or my employer. No animals were/will be harmed from the production of this disclaimer. Thank you.
    ***END OF DISCLAIMER***



  12. #12
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Low pressure nozzles are a great tool. We have used them for over 2 years and the FF love them and we are achieving fast knockdowns with more gpm's.

    We used TFT's, and before that Akron Turbojets. We ran field tests with our FF and the overwhelming choice was the low pressure nozzle. Even though through testing we showed that we were flowing on average 50gpm more with the low pressure nozzle than with the TFT. We have not experienced kinking problems or any other problem with this setup.

    I am not knocking TFT's or Turbojets, they are both good nozzles. We ran tests and chose what met our needs.

    I will tell you this in closing, I do not manufacture, distribute or sell any nozzle or any other fire equipment. The opinions stated by me are mine and mine alone. These opinions come from testing, with flow meters, and real world experience. I am becoming quite tired of every nozzle discussion on these forums becoming a battle ground for nozzle manufacturers to push their wares. Particularly when they hide who they are, or even if they say who they are, they snipe at each other.

  13. #13
    Jim M.
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    FyredUp has a good point. KEA is always great with his advice and very willing to sign his name and his company affiliation. Why is he a minority?

  14. #14
    BIG PAULIE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hey Truckie from Missouri, I have a question for you. In regards to your statement about switching to the 15/16" tip on your Boston Pipe Nozzle to give you a bigger punch. I am assuming that punch means a harder hitting better penitrating stream. What is the bozzle pressure on the 15/16" tip? If its not higher than 75 PSI it is my opinion along with GOD , the one who invented physics,that the highest nozzle pressure regardless if it is SB or Combo will have the hardest hitting stream. Don't get me wrong I have done flow tests on high pressure SB tips and have had grat results. Example a 1" tip at 100 psi NP produces about 300 gpm with a stream that will cut mountains down(figure of speech).

  15. #15
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FOR THE RECORD!!!!!!!

    GOD and his laws of Physics DO NOT say that the higher pressure stream will be the hardest hitting, even though thats what some manufactures have tried to make us believe!

    It states that at the "SAME FLOW" the stream with the higher pressure has more kinetic energy or what we call puch.

    Physics proves that even though a stream may have less pressure, it CAN hit harder.

    It's a little thing known as MASS! Thats one element of physics that some manufactures do not want to talk about becuase it defeats their arguments about higher nozzle pressure being better.

    For example: A combination nozzle (ANY NOZZLE) flowing 150-gpm at 75-psi exit velocity has 30.68 lbs of kinetic energy per minute. Thats known as punch!

    A smooth bore (ANY NOZZLE)flowing 198-gpm at 58-psi exit velocity has 31.27 lbs of kinetic energy per minute. Thats known as MORE punch!

    This being the case, we know that in this example the lower pressure nozzle (23% less pressure)would hit harder than the higher pressure nozzle. THATS PHYSICS!

    All to often we have been lead to believe parts of certain physics principals without exposing the whole truth.

    Please note that this is not a promotion for or against any type of nozzle. This response is inteded to simply expose the truth, which is our primary goal!

    Stay Safe

    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc.

  16. #16
    BIG PAULIE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KEA This stuff seems to have gone past my knowledge base. If what you are saying is true, and I have no reason to not believe you, than I stand corrected. I think I might have gotten caught up into the very thing that I don't like to see happen. That is making this job to complicated. When it comes to fire streams the user has to be happy with what he is using thats the bottom line. I guess the thing that really got me started on this is the fact that too often the low pressure nozzles are sold to firefighters based on there ability to be handled easier. I believe that more emphasis should be placed on hose handling technique.

  17. #17
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Big Paulie:
    "I guess the thing that really got me started on this is the fact that too often the low pressure nozzles are sold to firefighters based on there ability to be handled easier. I believe that more emphasis should be placed on hose handling technique."

    I couldn't agree with you more! I personally believe that two well trained firefighters should be able to handle "ANY" 1 3/4" flow available today, whether its from our nozzle or any other manufacture!

    Knowing this, I always wonder why these people try to sell the low reaction concept when they should be promoting the increased flow advantages. What's even more confusing is when departments say that they went to low pressure nozzles because it had less reaction. Unfortunately in most cases this is not true!

    Take a look at the math on a 150 gpm @ 100-psi or 200-gpm @ 75-psi nozzle. I personally would take the low pressure nozzle, but NOT because of reaction!

    If you run the math, you find that the 100-psi nozzle has 75.75 lbs of reaction force and delivers 40.92 lbs of kinetic energy, or punch.

    The 75-psi nozzle has 87.47 lbs of reaction and delivers 40.91 lbs of kinetic energy, or punch.

    You should note that both of these nozzles are delivering the same basic PUNCH or kinetic energy, yet the low pressure actually has more reaction than the high pressure nozzle. That's because that little thing called MASS!

    Why would I want the one with more reaction? First because with proper training both nozzles are easy to hold! More importantly is that in this business its about "fire suppression", not "fire fighting". GPM or as Paulie knows, Gallons per second puts out fire!

    Unfortunately, these laws of physics are not taught by most nozzle manufactures nor properly appied by the fire service during their evaluation process. Knowing the RIGHT answers to the sales pitch usually leads to a salesman leaving with their tail between their legs.

    Please note that these figures are based on the assumption that the NP used is measured exit velocity. Also, this is again in no way an endorsement for any type of nozzle. We just want the evaluation process to be done by the same play book known as GODS Laws, Physics!

    Hope this helps
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc.

  18. #18
    Capt. Zada
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    What is the big concern about "punch' or inpact of the fire stream? I don't care how hard it hits. My concern is that there is more than enough water delivered at any given amount of time to absorb the heat being produced during the same time frame.

    Those people concerned with impact should use a measurable unit, like foot pounds delivered per second.

    I'm not sure why it matters unless you are trying to bore through an iceberg.

    Just concentrate on gallons per minute of wet stuff on the red stuff!!!!!!!

  19. #19
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    This whole nozzle thing is really quite simple.

    1) Figure out what you want to flow in gpm's.

    2) Figure out the form you want to deliver it in, combo nozzle, smooth bore or whatever.

    3) Borrow the nozzles from the manufacturers who will lend them to you and try them for yourself. Using flow meters and pressure gauges to know what is really being flowed at what pressures.

    4) Buy what does what YOU want it to do. Not what any body tells you you should be doing.

    The opinions expressed here are mine and mine alone. Any resemblance to any person living or dead is purely coincidental. No animals were harmed in the production of this posting and all work was done by a Union crew. Oh, have a nice day!!

  20. #20
    BIG PAULIE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Captain Zada

    BRAVO!!!!!!!!

  21. #21
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KEA says - "I couldn't agree with you more! I personally believe that two well trained firefighters should be able to handle "ANY" 1 3/4" flow available today, whether its from our nozzle or any other manufacture!"

    Why should it take 2 well trained firefighters? One well trained firefighter should handle any 1.75" flow available today - low pressure, high pressure whatever.

    If you compared apples to apples with a 200gpm @100psi nozzle (instead of the 150gpm you referenced) with the 200gpm @75psi would you get the same results?

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a 200gpm stream is going to have more mass than a 150gpm.

    Do you have any test data to support a 75psi low pressure nozzle having more punch when compared with a higher pressure nozzle at the same flow?

    How can you get 12.47 more pounds out of a nozzle than you put into it?

  22. #22
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    S Cook:
    Why should it take 2 well trained firefighters?

    It shouldn't!! I agree totally!! The only reason I referenced two is because that is what is a common goal.

    If you compared apples to apples with a 200gpm @100psi nozzle (instead of the 150gpm you referenced) with the 200gpm @75psi would you get the same results?

    That's the nice thing with physics. If you take a 200 gpm nozzle @75 psi and compare it to a 200 gpm nozzle at @100 psi you will find that the reaction and punch is greater with the 100psi.

    My point in my original post on this is to help people realize that the greater pressure only provides the greater punch when you compare the SAME FLOW. All to often people are being told go to low pressure nozzles and you get more flow with less reaction or go to high pressure nozzles to get more punch. Thats not always the case. If you read my post carefully you will find that it was only to share some physic properties that help take the sales pitch out of the equation and help people to make an informed decision when they look at nozzles. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Do you have any test data to support a 75psi low pressure nozzle having more punch when compared with a higher pressure nozzle at the same flow?

    No and if someone ever proves that then they will win an award becasue they would have established a new law of physics.

    You can do the tests on your calculator. Its all based on know physics properties. The term "SAME FLOW" is the key. At the SAME FLOW the higher pressure will have more punch. That's physics. Again, my point was that people shouldn't be fooled to believe that just because a nozzle has a higher pressure means it has a better punch. It has that better punch when flows are equal and may not when flows are less.

    How can you get 12.47 more pounds out of a nozzle than you put into it?

    I didn't! If you look at the formula to determine reaction force you will see where the numbers come from?

    NR=.0505 X quantity X square root of the pressure
    NR = .0505 X 200 X square root of 75
    NR = 10.10 X 8.66
    NR = 87.47

    I hope this answers your questions. If not let me know.

    Thanks
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc.

  23. #23
    LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    NR=.0505 X quantity X square root of the pressure
    NR = .0505 X 200 X square root of 75
    NR = 10.10 X 8.66
    NR = 87.47

    That is a nice formula but it is not accurate on all fog tips or all styles of nozzles.

  24. #24
    LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I think Mr. Cook can verify that 200 gpm at 100 psi nozzle pressure can also have zero pounds reaction. As can 300 gpm at 100 psi. I've seem him let go of a hose line at those flows and the line didn't go anywhere, he was standing, wasn't using ropes, loops, etc, just learned how to hold a fire hose.

    Don't let the goofy formulas drive you crazy. Lots of what we do is an art. If you neer figure out the art the hose will kick your tail. The nozzleman has lots to do with reaction.

  25. #25
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Not to beat a dead horse, but...

    I'm visiting with a friend of mine today who happens to be a legit rocket scientist (honest) and I ask him about how 75psi of water going one way can equal 87psi going back the other.

    He said he didn't know, because if more pressure were going backwards than forwards from a hole, the water would go backwards up into the hole.

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