Thread: Challenging the water books
06-13-2000, 12:39 PM #1BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Challenging the water books
I would like to get peoples opinions on how they feel about the information provided in the fire stream books that we use such as IFSTA and others published through magazines such as Fire Engineering. It is my opinion that some information is out dated and contadictory. If we use a tactic that is not sanctioned by these books and it works are we liable? Let me know what you think and let me know if you are currently doing something that is either not in the books or against what they say.
06-13-2000, 05:48 PM #2MetalMedicFirehouse.com Guest
If we use a tactic that is not sanctioned by these books and it works are we liable?
If it works... probably not. But if you try something that is not a "standard" and it fails.. LOOK OUT!!! There are some things in NFPA and IFSTA I question... but if you did something different and a civil action were brought about.. those would be the "standards" you would be held accoutable to.
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
06-13-2000, 06:09 PM #3M GFirehouse.com Guest
Here we go....the debate soon begins. Who says and whats the proof?? (recalling the phrase I have heard here somewhere). Never operate an appliance or equipment in violation of the manufacturers specifications..otherwise if it works and is safe, use it. Mr Nester is correct about being held to a standard (even though NFPA isnt law) because the theory is that a standard is nationally recognized as an acceptable practice.
Heres an example: What law says how to hold a fire hose? Am I wrong for teaching a new firefghter that it takes less energy (and people) to sit on a hose and punch out ****load of water or should I open up my essentials book and teach them how to devise a hose strap contraption to use with 3-6 people standing up? Im goin with plan A here! Dont be fooled by the "rule boys" who always seem to pull some fancy sounding rule or standard from their posterior because they dont have a clue what they are seeing and it goes against everything they ever learned (thats called fear of change and ignorance). Lets try to focus on putting fires out and doing it quick, and well. Paul, I give credit to you for being a forerunner in the field of water delivery. Who would think that there is a science to moving water...but you found it! Keep up the good work and keep us thinking.
The information presented herin is simply my opinion and does not represent the opinion or view of my employer(s) or any department/agency to which I belong.
[This message has been edited by M G (edited June 13, 2000).]
06-13-2000, 11:10 PM #4DDFirehouse.com Guest
The book that I would use as my "standard" was not written by a bureaucrat or
institutional educator. It came from the mind of an engineer that knows how to move water. I would not hesitate to call as my expert witness none other than "Big Paulie".
I think that the NFPA, IFSTA, ISO, and other Big Brother groups will go the way of the KGB if they remain stuck in their old ways. They need to get their heads out of their asses and look what WE are facing. I suppose that they are insulated from the real world, the one which we have to fight on a daily basis.
06-14-2000, 05:22 PM #5Lieutenant GonzoFirehouse.com Guest
There are some basic laws of physics and hydraulics that cannot be changed...we can adapt new ways to deliver water to the scene of the fire, invent new nozzles and foam systems, develop more powerful and dependable pumps and develop new tactics.
There are many people in the fire service that say "it can't be done" or "that's not the way to do it"...but when it comes time to prove the theory they disappear before you can blink an eye!
Big Paulie has done the research and has shared his findings with the fire service community...for that we should give him the proper recognition. For those who accuse the fire service organizations of being in a constant state of "rectocranial inversion"...take a good look around..better turnout gear, lighter weight SCBA, thermal imagers...safer fire apparatus...I would say that they have looked at what we are facing and are working to make the job safer for us!
We boldly go where no one else dares...
take care and stay safe
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