1. #1
    trkmedic69
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question Dry-line Fire attack

    What are your thoughts??

    By "dry line attack" I mean taking a line dry (without being charged) to the fire and having it charged once the fire is located.
    I see this as pretty dangerous with alot that could go wrong. As some of the most obvious examples - pump/hose/nozzle failure, line being wedged under a door, encountering heavy fire with not enough time to get water, & so on.
    I'd like to here what everyone else thinks and what your SOG's on the matter are.

    -Nick

  2. #2
    KenBucks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Always have the line charged(interior attacks). You never know what's in there.
    Safety..Safety..Safety..Ken

  3. #3
    KFD20-PAT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    The hose line is ALWAYS charged before starting an interior attack.
    I know it is easier to deploy a handline not charged up to the second level or attic, but I do not feel comfortable doing this. If I need water now, I want the comfort in knowing it is available once I open the nozzle and not have to wait the few seconds it takes to charge the hose.

  4. #4
    Halligan84
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Dry lines can be stretched safely in a number of situations. Stretching dry and using good size up and communications usually results in the line getting into position and being charged much more quickly than if a charged line was advanced through a building. I believe in stretching dry until I reach a fire barrier nearest the actual fire area. For instance, in an apartment building with an uninvolved common corridor you may consider stretching to the fire apartment door before calling for water. If you encounter fire or smoke in the corridor, call for water at the fire tower door or the floor below the fire. Large commercial buildings may require a stretch in excess of 400-500 feet, nearly impossible to perform while charged
    For single family dwellings I usually consider the entire dwelling to be the same fire area due to open stairs and floor plans. I wouldn’t take my chances with cheap interior doors holding the fire. In that case it’s usually easy to call for water at the front door. Continuing size up is crucial to ensure the line does not pass its last area of refuge or barrier against the fire. Good SOPs and TRAINING are crucial to ensure members know how far they can go and when to call for water.

  5. #5
    Jay Sonnenfeld
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I agree with halligan84, It is so much easier to stretch a dry line. In this situation size up is critical.

  6. #6
    Bob Snyder
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    I'll go with haligan on this, in general, although I personally strectch dry lines in some residential situations also. It really comes down to gaining the experience to recognize fire conditions and anticipate hazards. For this reason, I'd be inclined toward teaching newer firefighters to work with charged lines, then letting them ease into more complex judgements as they gain experience.

    Another factor that comes into play, at least for me, is the pump operator. If I know the pump operator behind me, and I'm confident that he/she is going to get me the water I need when I call for it, I'm more aggressive about advancing dry lines. If I don't know the pump operator (or I know him/her and don't have a lot of confidence in that person), I'm more likely to lug a charged line around, just to be sure. It's a little rough to say that, I know, but you don't always get to pick your crew, you know?

  7. #7
    FRED
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Although I can't speak for my entire dept. My company uses this technique for the following resons.
    -It enbales us to place the first line into operation with ease(elimination of stress and less exertion)Since we many times only have a nozzleman and officer on the line.
    -It is easier to layout the hose properly without fighting it or breaking other valubles in the house/building that is caused by a stiff/charged handline.
    It is more dangerous in some aspects but when partnered with agressive ventiliation it is quite effective.
    Your right alot could go wrong but, the time & effort savings of having to fight and drag a charged hose line through a building compensates for the higher risk factor...at least for us.
    -It is easier as I am sure you know to advance a charged line when you have a back--up & doorman but sometimes that luxury isn't available.
    As with anything practice and plan it out. discuss it before hand so everyone from the driver to the nozzleman are on the same page.

    Also as with any tactic it isn't a cure all...sometimes taking in a charged line is the only option.
    I disagree with the view that you should always enter with a charged line, just the same as using any other tactic "always".
    Use the right tool for the right job.
    Those are just my thoughts...


  8. #8
    benson911
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Halligan used my favorite two words....

    SIZE UP

    Every fire is different, your size up will tell you what techniques, tactics and strategy to use. If you need to advance a dry line to most efficiently attack the fire, then do it.

    Never say never on a fire - the fire always knows better than you until you do a complete and comprehensive SIZE UP.

  9. #9
    firemanw8
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    When i was an Engineer, i would open the gate valve to just begin to fill the line with water. All that would be needed was the pressure. This can save some valuable time.

  10. #10
    STATION2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    I personally think that stretching a dry line is beneficial at times. In my career department, the territory of the station I am assigned to is made up of about 60% garden apartments, 10% single family dwellings and 20% commercial. When stretching to the 3rd floor of a garden apt., a dry line allows it to be stretched quicker, is less fatiguing and is more efficient. This applies to interior and exterior staircases. In commercial businesses such as strip centers, shopping centers, etc. It is easier and more efficient to stretch lines into adjoining occupancies and into position to operate when dry than if you have to carry around water with it. As far as the line getting stuck under doors, if the doors are properly secured with chocks or straps and/or removed completely, it is a moot point. As far as the qualifications of the pump operator, either they can do their job or not. I do not believe in changing tactics to suit the pump operator. If they can pump then they can drive, if they can't pump then they don't drive. Its that simple. As we all know, these tactics and thoughts are dependent on the following factors: Building construction (Lightweight wood truss, for example, is something to consider versus mill construction), size-up of the strucure/occupancies (Heavy involvement might mean water as soon as the hose is on the ground), communications (You have to be able to call for water if you can't see the pump operator. If you can't call for AND get water when you need it, then you have lost the time you made up in the beginning), ventilation (Must be done quickly AND correctly to allow the people on the line to be able to get where they need to be. If I have a line going into an adjoining occupancy dry, I want to know that the roof is already open or the PPV fan is already running with an exit before I go in there. Fire and smoke going where you want it to is better than spreading over your head.) and Drilling/Training (Know how to do it, where to do it and when to do it before you try to do it at 03:00 hrs at an OMD). Be safe.


    Larry

    [This message has been edited by STATION2 (edited October 01, 2000).]

  11. #11
    TYSON L1
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The engine companies in my city normally advance a dry attack line. Trying to advance a charged line to the second floor of a 3 story row can be almost impossible. The engine is usally not far from the front door (less than 100 feet) due to the tightness of most streets.

  12. #12
    FitzBFDT2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    I really don't like the word always. The decision to stretch a dry line or a charged line is scenario dependent. Let circumstances dictate procedures.

    Fire in basement or in the area of where you will begin your attack is justifcation to advance a charged line. Anything else in my opinion has to be scenario dependent and most of the time a dryline will be stretched as close to the seat of the fire as is safe and then charged.

    For example. You have a 6 story walkup with a fire on the top floor. It is much safer, more efficient and quicker to stretch dry to as close as you can get to the fire apartment before charging the line. An engine company that always charges the line at the front door will be exhausted after stretching a charged line up 6 stories and the fire will probably have gotten a head start on you.

    Scenario Dependent


    ------------------
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry, bfdt2@fitzhenry.com
    Firefighter, Truck Co. 2
    City of Bayonne (NJ) FD
    www.bayonnenj.org/fire/

  13. #13
    FireFJayT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    While I agree that stretching a dry line is beneficial and allows you to get into an area much quicker, it is not right in ALL instances. I have stretched dry lines to all types of fires including taxpayers, WF, etc. I do have to admit that if I was to have a lump as a pump operator, I would be very cautious. Otherwise "Take the line and protect the stairwell". Just a thought

    ------------------
    "No matter what rank I have attained, I am, at heart, a Firefighter First"

  14. #14
    ENGINE18-3
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I also agree that advanceing a dry line is all about the circumstance. And advancing a dry line for a multiple story building or a building that has extremely long hallways is much easier on the guys on the line.

    ------------------
    The statements above are my own opinions

    FF Greg Grudzinski
    Oaklyn Fire Dept.
    Station 18-3

  15. #15
    coons
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    I believe in taking in a uncharged hose line....It all depends on what you see and know...It is an advance tactic, but excellant. I just recently took in a uncharged hoseline...limited staffing...performed a quick search while trying to find the fire....found it and before entry charged line an attacked...With a charged line we would have never made it to the fire due to the length of search in a big house with a basement....depends on what you know and what you see..

  16. #16
    flashover58
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our SOG states the line is charged before the 1st team enters, and a second line on the ground. On a residential I'll always have it charged. I'd consider waiting on a multi level, depending on the size up.

  17. #17
    FIREWALKER1335
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    a dry line attack can be very effective when applied in the right situation. there are a few factors that must be considered before making the decision to use this method of attack. how much fire involvement do you have? is your equipment in good operating condition ( enough for you to place the lives of you and your team in the hands of the equipment )? how quickly is the fire progressing? whay type of structure are you entering? is there protection provided to you and your crew in case of an equipment malfunction? how experenced are you and your crew? if you can answer favorably to all these questions then maybe you are ready to try this form of attack. if not dont try it in the real deal. practice it first. a dry line can provide you with the ease of movement throughout a structure. it can mean less fatigue to your crew. it can give you the ability to more quickly locate the seat of the fire as well as any downed victims. however, these advantages should in no way mask the dangers of this type of operation. if not done properly, or performed during the wrong situations the outcome could be deadly. the pros and cons are equaly impressive and should all be considered.

  18. #18
    Michael Haberhty
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    ....You need to put away the "Backdraft" video, and join the rest of us in the real world.

  19. #19
    8BALL
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Why are firefighters always looking for an easy way to do a difficult job? I'm an advocate of efficiency to reduce the amount of work involved, but not at the cost of safety. One reply stated "It's alot eaiser to stretch dry up to the sixth floor", my question becomes; Why not use the standpipe on the fifth floor? Just as several other people have stated, size-up is the determining factor for most of the actions initiated on the fireground. Using professional judgement and sound tactics will dictate how a job will be acomplished.

  20. #20
    FitzBFDT2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    8Ball,

    Maybe I wasn't clear in my answer what a 6 story walkup is. In my neck of the woods, a 6 story walkup is an ordinary constructed building with no elevators and no standpipe. Are you telling me you would stretch wet up 6 flights of stairs?

    Stay safe


    ------------------
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry, bfdt2@fitzhenry.com
    Firefighter, Truck Co. 2
    City of Bayonne (NJ) FD
    www.bayonnenj.org/fire/

  21. #21
    FFE3BFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I happen to agree with my esteemed colleague, And he knows sometimes we don't see eye to eye on some issues. I read words like "Size Up", "SOG's" and "Pre-Plans" which are all valid points.
    Let the situation dictate the action.

  22. #22
    jj1967
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    In the Army we have an acronym for this situation: METT-T: Mission, Equipment, Terrain, Troops and Time. In the fire service, we call it size up.

    Sometimes it doesn't make sense to advance a dry line. When you pull up to a single family dwelling with fire showing, advance a charged line.

    Last month I was at a fire in a hotel under construction. Fire walls and doors hadn't yet been installed in the entire building. The plan was stop the fire with a 2 1/2 with a vindacator nozzle. We had to drag 400' of 2 1/2 to the third floor. There is no way to do that with a charged line. Sometimes advancing a dry line is the only way to do it.

  23. #23
    LBFire21
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    If nothing is showing a dry line us stretched as precaution. If it is clear that your "going to work" then don't leave w/o it charged.

  24. #24
    E229Lt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    My job's books rarely use the words "Never" or "Always". But one never that is written states, "The nozzle team shall NEVER enter the fire area with an uncharged line".

    Bringing a line dry to an area adjacent to the fire prior to charging it is however acceptable. For us to enter a fire room dry then call for water does the following:
    1. Forces us to bleed off the air into the fire.
    2. Makes us unable to close doors behind us confining the fire.
    3. Gives us no opportunity to test the line for a good flow.

    Several years ago, a proby went to his first job. The nozzle team entered the well involved first floor hallway with a dry line. As the line was positioned the front door closed over the line, unkown to the team. Water was called for and as the line charged it wedged itself under the door. Little to no water reached the nozzle and the fire intensified. As the team attempted to fall back they found the door was wedged shut and could not open it.
    The truck company arrived and saw the gloved fingers of a member under the door trying to pull it open. The door was forced off it's hinges and the members removed.
    The proby's burn injuries forced him to retire on disability after fighting one fire along with the rest of the company.

  25. #25
    trucki27
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Going in with a dry line is not something that should be done unless your attempting a rescue before the PO can charge the line.All that it takes is for the fire to burn thru the door before you can tell the driver to charge it and your burned it's nota safe practice

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