Thread: ladder company search and rescue
11-05-2000, 04:27 PM #1firedog72Firehouse.com Guest
ladder company search and rescue
When the ladder company is the first one on the scene of a working fire, do you feel the crew going in to do the search and rescue should take a dry line for safety reasons in case they get in trouble, or will this only hurt the search.
11-05-2000, 06:19 PM #2daysleeper47Firehouse.com Guest
I can't answer because I am not a firefighter, but let me ask what percentage of ladders have pumps and hose? I honestly don't know. I know LAFD trucks don't, and I dont think FDNY does either. Just askin'
"When the bell goes ding-ding, its time to get on the woo-woo."
11-05-2000, 07:10 PM #3MetalMedicFirehouse.com Guest
I know the career departments do some things different, but we always go in with a CHARGED line which does not get in the way and you know it is connected at the other end to a truck so it is a life line to follow if you need to get out. As for pumps and hoses.... ALL aeriels in this part of the State are pump and hose equipped. I believe "quint" would be the term commonly used for this configuration.
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
11-05-2000, 08:54 PM #4FREDFirehouse.com Guest
Although I'm not sure whether you mean 1st Ladder Co. due or 1st on Scene. I'll give you my observations and opinion.
It all depends on your staffing, training, confidence and number of Companies on the alarm.
If you have plenty of Engine Co's. on scene and operating they will be able to take care of the water while you focus on your assigned task.
-If you cary a hose with you you must address these issues.
*What tools will you leave behind? Irons, Thermal camera, Hook, Rabit tool, ect.
*If you encounter fire extension what will you do? Your original task was to Search for Victims but now you are extinguishing fire, are you ignoring a priority on the fireground? ie. rescue
*Dry or wet? either way this will add to the spagetti and it will take additional men to hump the hose around corners...plus if it is "dry" there is a very good chance of getting it caught around a door.
* It adds to the pump operators confusion possibly necesstating the use of another pumper and its operator thus loosing one more man on the fireground for other tasks.
*Using a hose will slow the search down thus keeping the Companies in a hostile enviroment for that much longer.
Not using it does lead to issues of getting lost and getting cut off by fire.
Look at the structure as well a 2 Bed room house might not need it but a church would.
All it comes down to is what your particular Dept. is equiped to handle if you show up with 2 Eng's with 3 men on each and one truck with 3 guys on it you prob want to take a hose with you but if you have 4 engines 2 trucks and 25 men it might not be nessesary.
Just two cents from a fireman
11-06-2000, 08:33 PM #5Capt68Firehouse.com Guest
Life safety is your first priority, extinguish the fire after this is done when an Engine Co. arrives.
62 Engine 67 Truck ... The Pride of the West Side
11-06-2000, 11:24 PM #6JohnMFirehouse.com Guest
I'm with Capt68 all the way. Truck work is dangerous and I think the more experienced troops should be on the truck company for this reason. A truck company dragging a dry hose around would really be a mess. Have a radio, and when you find fire direct the hose draggers to the area.
11-07-2000, 06:33 PM #7ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
A truck co., involved in a primary search, would just get slowed down by dragging a line around with them. In large areas, warehouses, factories, and large merchant we use a search rope to stay in contact with a way out or reference point.
The decision to search a spacific area must be based on a good size up. Is the area tenable, do we have a second means of egress if conditions change. In questionable areas a VES approach has worked well. The bottom line is that the above the fire team needs to be experienced.
11-08-2000, 10:37 PM #8STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
In my career department its easy. No line. We don't have a pump or tank. We have a "true" truck. If we arrive first on scene we do what we are they to do. Forcible entry for ourselves and the Engine Co., primary search and ventilation. No matter if we get there first or not, without forcible entry the Engine Co. can't get in. Without effective ventilation, the line is going to be slowed down or never make it to where it needs to be. If we had a "quint" I wouldn't want to take a line with us. Slows you down and can detract from your principle assignments of forcible entry, primary search and ventilation.
What are the benefits of the Truck Co. taking a line with them?
11-14-2000, 08:39 PM #9TXFIRE6Firehouse.com Guest
Truck company duties are those that DO NOT INVOLVE WATER OR HOSE. Bringing a dry line will only slow the search, if you encounter fire, or extension, close the door. I agree with the others that more experienced troops should be on trucks. Let the engines do their job, extinguish fire, protect the search teams, etc. In multi story buldings, the floors above the fire should be seached first, so this would really get slowed trying to drag a hose around. Howver we have truck companies, with no water, and quints with water. if a truck arrives first, they have no water/hose anyway. if a quint arrives first onscene, our policy state that it acts an an engine company in most cases. check what your SOP's state.
My own opinion, not of my department.
11-22-2000, 02:36 PM #10jj1967Firehouse.com Guest
After fifteen years on an engine I'm now on a ladder (VOL). Our truck is a straight stick, no pump. We search without a line. We do take rope, and I always carry a can (pressurized water extinguisher). But you can bet I always pick out the closest window when I enter a room.
11-28-2000, 05:32 PM #11R1smketrFirehouse.com Guest
I don't believe a Truck crew should stretch a line. This will slow down their important primary search. During a search , however, I believe in taking the "can" with you (along with either the irons/hook/or Ram). The "can" is an under-rated tool. If it becomes untenable during your search, a dash from the can can give you enough time to beat a retreat! It will also let you knock down enough fire, if even to just close a door. 2-1/2 gallons does a lot!! Stay Safe!!
11-30-2000, 08:15 PM #12ALSfirefighterFirehouse.com Guest
Ditto with the rest of the guys. The key to the primary search upon arrival, is speed. It is also important for the outside units to keep the truck company informed of any changing conditions noticable from the exterior, and to get ground ladders set up outside on all sides, in the event it becomes bail out time. It also becomes very interesting when the engine company does not check with the truck company on their postion when they are in position to begin extinguishment. But I always keep in mind, nothing is set in stone when it comes to the fireground. Everything revolves around the initial size up. I can't tell you that searching without a line off a pumper would happen that way 100% of the time. It all depends on what type of structure, and what I hear and see from dispatch to arrival.
The above is my thoughts and opinions only, they do not reflect that of any dept./agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.
12-02-2000, 06:10 AM #13RDWFIREFirehouse.com Guest
Kinda goes against the grain to go in without a hose, but I see how it could work. Sometimes we get locked into the "there is only one way" to do things. Truck companies are a separate entity on the fireground, and really DO need experienced firefighters on their crews. You DON'T always have to have a hose line to enter the building....but you DO need experience and common sense. (if we HAD common sense...would we enter a fire building?.... )
Be safe. The dragon lurks!!!
12-07-2000, 09:24 PM #14StaylowFirehouse.com Guest
Truck companies should leave the hoses to the engine crews. Time would only be wasted if the truck had to extend a hose line, and the people trapped inside don't have time to waste. Searching by rescue squads or truck companies is a dangerous job because there are no hose lines. We will take axes and halligans every time, but other tools depend on the building type. Know the common features of the building construction and floor plans in your area(ie. are the bedrooms located in the front, middle, or back in certain styles of housing?) There is nothing better than experience and training. Good luck and stay safe!
01-10-2001, 04:39 AM #15rfd241Firehouse.com Guest
I don't think that you absolutely need to have a hose line to perform a search, and in particular a primary search. A primary search of a room should take only seconds and if you have a hose line with you, even if it is dry, this will hinder your time and efficiency. Granted you also have to take into consideration the amount of fire you have and don't let yourself get too far ahead of the fire where you yourself can end up getting trapped. Plus, if you are a true truck company then you should not even have hose lines on your apparatus in the first place. If it's a quint then I would say if you have two crews to have one go in and perform the search while the other goes in to back you up with a hose line or attack the fire.
01-10-2001, 11:30 PM #16axmanFirehouse.com Guest
I believe that the vent enter and search is the best way to go, if you have the manpower on the search crew they have one firefighter bring the "Can" so if a room becomes to hot you can cool it off some and hopefully get you out of a flashover situation.
STAY SAFE ALL OF MY BROTHERS.
02-21-2001, 12:01 PM #1751Truck_KFirehouse.com Guest
Who ever said true Truck work doesnt involve hose or water obviously never spent hours up in a Tower Ladder Bucket, flowing thousands of gallons on a burninig taxpayer!(No not the ones that say we came to slow or drove to fast! A commercial structure!)
-Yonkers is in this house?
04-01-2001, 01:56 AM #18STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
Truck Co.'s do Truck work and Engine Co.'s do Engine work. Truck Co.'s should not use a hoseline for the following reasons:
Slows the forcible entry, search and ventilation (You move faster without it)
Distracts from main objective (If there stretching hose then who is forcing doors, opening up and searching?)
Requires the Truck Co. to stay together more than necessary (VES is shot to hell if isn't done simultaniously)
Typically more Engine Co.'s than Truck Co.'s on the box alarm (More Engine Co.'s to stretch hose).
Just my opinions. Be safe.
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