looking for any and all ideas on high rise packs,looking to improve the way they are packed and what they are carried in. Thank you Tony
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Thread: HighRise Packs
12-01-2000, 08:51 PM #1AHFD202Firehouse.com Guest
12-02-2000, 04:47 AM #2RDWFIREFirehouse.com Guest
AHFD202....we use a 150' 1 3/4" load packaged with a "Milwaukee strap" with a 2 1/2" to 1 1/2" wye, and constant flow "Task Force Tip". (our 1 3/4" is coupled with 1 1/2" couplings). This allows an easily shoulder loaded pack with good fire flows for "high rise" incidents.
Be safe. The dragon lurks!!!
12-29-2000, 03:36 PM #3Fireman488Firehouse.com Guest
Our department also uses 150 feet of 1 3/4 inch (with a 2 1/2 to 1 1/2 reducer attached)line, currently with a fog nozzle*, carried in a Milwaukee strap.
*The fog nozzle is soon to be replaced on some packs with a 15/16 inch tip, smooth bore nozzle.
**Two inch line is also under consideration to replace the 1 3/4 inch line, with a smooth bore stacked tip (1 inch, 1 1/8 inch) nozzle on some packs.
FDNY uses 2 1/2 inch on standpipe operations; and we would probably go to
2 1/2 inch high-rise packs, if we had sufficient manpower at all times.
I know, from experience, that heavy fire, which extends into the hallway from the fire apartment or that is consuming a large open commercial area will require at least one
2 1/2 inch line, if not more.
And multiple 2 1/2 inch lines may not even be sufficient if the fire is really wind-whipped, particularly on upper floors.
Stay low and stay safe!!
12-29-2000, 03:51 PM #4FireloverFirehouse.com Guest
In our Engine, we have it set up with 100" with a smooth bore. We have them held together with velcro straps. It hangs in the rear driver side compartment on a large hook. It's very easy to take off.
If you sent us to HELL, WE'D PUT IT OUT!!
01-02-2001, 10:02 AM #5FireDocCJCFirehouse.com Guest
Here is what we use on our high rise packs.
1 3/4" line 100' of it held to gether with straps (they might be Milwaukee Straps ???)
with the reducer. We heve 3 of these on our first in engine and 2 on our second. They are also great when you find out that you have gone into a building and have run out of hose. If we come up on this problem where we MIGHT run out of hose a third person grabs the hose pack and carries it in with them. This is primarily in buisneses where we might not have to do rescue. But that is my opinion on that.
How ever works for you works for you but don't forget the spenners.
Keep your head below the smoke but in the game.
01-19-2001, 06:34 PM #6firehat87Firehouse.com Guest
We carry 200ft of 1.5in with a fog nozzle. The folds are held in place with medical tape. We carry it in a specially built shelf above our saws, which has been controversial because some are worried the hose will become impregnated with gasoline vapors. Fire Engineering ran an article not too long ago about using some kind of wildland roll that can be charged while still rolled for high rise packs, it sounded kinda interesting.
In Omnia Paratus
02-06-2001, 06:30 PM #7jr17716921Firehouse.com Guest
We are still in the devlopment phase of our highrise pack, but this is what we are thinking. Make two packs, one pack will have 150-200' of lightwight 1 3/4" hose connected to a water thief. The water thief will be connected to a short piece of 2 1/2" hose to get the water thief to the ground instead of connecting derectly into the standpipe. By using the water thief you can add up to four 1 3/4" hand lines from one standpipe and have the opption of connecting a 2 1/2" highrise pack. By using this setup we feel that we have the opption to use the smaller 1 3/4" handlines for small fires and use the 2 1/2" handline for the big fires. Let me knkow what you people out there think of this idea.
02-06-2001, 07:15 PM #8ffengFirehouse.com Guest
Can you explain the hydraulics for 200' of 1 1/2" with a fog nozzle for a high rise pack? What kind of nozzle pressures/flows are you expecting?
02-06-2001, 09:26 PM #9DOG 4035Firehouse.com Guest
I see there are still Departments that use 1 3/4 or I saw one with 1 1/2. I have two questions; WHY? And have these Departments ever been involved in a Hi-Rise fire? I have been working in Manhattan for a few years now and a 1 3/4 just doesn't cut it.
GO WITH THE BIG LINE FIRST!GO WITH THE 2 1/2!
STAY SAFE,STAY LOW
[This message has been edited by DOG 4035 (edited 02-07-2001).]
02-06-2001, 09:37 PM #10John_FordFirehouse.com Guest
How about 100' of 2" with a LP tip on it. I have been playing with the Nozzle that LAFD uses and have had pretty good luck. Atlanta, try staying with 100' lengths in your bundles. City of Harrisburg, PA uses the 2" at 200' but the bundle is a bugger to carry. Too heavy, the 100' sections are just right. Also look at the friction loss in 1 3/4. NFPA 14 covers the standpipe and the old standard was just 65 PSI at the valve. The new standard is 100 PSI. Most of the existing standpipes are the old standard. You would do better to go up a size in hose and get the reduced friction loss and increase your flow. Also 2" is compatable with class 1, 2 or 3 standpipes. Key is to use low pressure or smooth bore nozzles because of the low pressure at the valve. Best thing is 2 1/2" if you have the manpower as the standard was written around 2 1/2" hose and a 1 1/8" tip. Also keep the water thief separate from the bundle. You need it for the Class 1 and 3 standpipe but again it comes down to weight. I have seen Boston use a handcart to carry all their stuff. OK if your SOP allows the elevator but a real ***ch if you have to drag it 10 stories. Good luck.
02-08-2001, 05:59 PM #11gunnyvFirehouse.com Guest
I know all the FDNY guys can't understand 1 3/4 in a high rise pack. In their situation it's inadequate, but for us it's ideal. We have 150' 1 3/4 with a 2 1/2 to 1 1/2 reducer and a breakapart slug tip/fog nozzle. We only have 2 buildings over 3 stories, they're only 8-9 stories each and fully sprinkled. Also they're senior housing, so they're well compartmented. In addition, the buildings are well maintained and inspected regularly- we're there for EMS all the time anyway. So for us the small line is good enough.
02-09-2001, 01:02 PM #12FREDFirehouse.com Guest
FYI for those guys who still use 1 3/4 hose with fogs...
-Don't count on those sprinklers working.
I remember reading about 3 FDNY guys getting killed in a similar occupancy that HAD sprinklers....but guess what...They didn't work. It was found that the sprinklers were shut off at an intermediate valve.
-Although there were other mitigating circumstances in this incident, one should not wait to find out once on the 6th floor with heavy fire pushing down the hallway that your flow is inadequate. There are many lives at stake...don't assume anything in a hi-rise. There are too many things that can go wrong.
And don't assume regular inspections will catch all problems...all it takes is a careless plumber to shut off the system and fail to reactivate it.
My Dept is currently using the 1 3/4 with a fog however we are re-evaluating this practice. As it has been said before...
"It is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it."
Two cents from a fireman.
02-09-2001, 09:08 PM #13pokeyfd12Firehouse.com Guest
Our Hi-Rise packs consist of 2-1/2 inch hose with a stacked smooth bore tip. The kit has a 3-inch leader line with a 2-1/2 to 2-1/2 inch gated wye. We also carry a piece of pipe with 2-1/2 inch connections at each end with an inline pressure gauge so that we can accurately control the pressure if the pipe pressure is too high and we don't trust the standpipe gate valve. Also in the kit is a set of spanners, a length of looped rope, wire brushes, spare gate wheels in case those on the s-pipe are damaged, a pipe wrench and door chocks. Sounds like alot but fits in a small duffle/toolbag.
I won't say anybody is wrong for using 1-3/4 or 1.5 inch hose in a Hi-Rise but sometimes experiences dictate thinking. I have pushed out of Hi-Rise fires while using 2-1/2 and I have a neighboring city department that used two portable deck guns to knock down a hi-rise because their manpower was battered from a fire on a 6th floor apartment complex.
Yes, there can be times that a waste basket or single storage room fire does not require big water. However, please think about hindering factors: For those using automatic nozzles or fog nozzles, check your nozzles and make sure they are low pressure type. Many standpipe systems have PRV's (pressure reducing valves) that won't let the pressure rise above 65 PSI (EVEN IF SUPPLEMENTED BY FIRE DEPT. PUMPER CONNECTIONS). If it's a 100 PSI automatic nozzle, it won't open or if it does, you won't have much of stream. In standpipes, you never know what the quality of water is in the system, if it has ever been flushed or what kind of source is supplying it. With that in mind, much like a hydrant, rocks, dirt, metal and other materials have been found flowing through s-pipe systems. A smooth bore nozzle won't clog up as bad with this stuff in the line as will a fog or combination nozzle.
Also remember, s-pipe systems may be shut-off for whatever reason and fire may be extended before arrival, especially if sprinklers are not working or not on the floor involved. With windows venting allowing further extension and wind driven flames, lines smaller than 2-1/2 may not be adequate for initial knockdown.
If you think it won't happen to you, ask the Philadelphia Fire Dept. about their One Meridian Plaza fire. Everything that could go wrong did go wrong for the most part.
Engine Lt. Kevin C. (aka Pokey)
02-10-2001, 10:15 AM #14ENGINE 52Firehouse.com Guest
The hi-rise pack are dept. carries is 150' 1 1/2" with a 1 1/2" to 2 1/2 adapter.We use a 1 1/2 adjustable fog nozzle. The line is pack with the nozzle on top for quick depolyment. We use it on a kicthen fire in a 15 story hi-rise and it work well. Hope this info. helps.
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