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  1. #21
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Think of it this way...

    Your pump is at a normal draft, hard suction hose in the water and lines coming off to fight the fire.

    BUT;

    Instead of the lines being used to fight the fire, they're supplying 2 turbo drafts (TD). And these TDs are supplying either tankers, fill site dump tanks or attack engines.

    Since the engine the TDs are being supplied from is supplying itself with water from it's hard suction, a return (or supply for it) from the TDs back to it is not needed.

    Another option if you were too far away to draft would be to return one TD to the draft engine and pump multiple TDs from it to fire, fill site or tankers.


  2. #22
    Larry Welle
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink



    WOW !

  3. #23
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    How do you use it through ice? Just like you would a hard suction hose. If we'd used three turbo drafts or a 6 inch version we would have flowed 1800 gpm on an investment of 600 gpm.

  4. #24
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ###First you tell me that you need a pumper because the TurboDraft cannot overcome the resistance of gravity on the water in the tanker.###

    I never said that.

    ###then you tell me that your water is coming into the pumper under pressure.###

    Yes it comes back to you under pressure. Remember we are working with all soft hose. No hard suction involved.

    ###make up your mind.###

    That's the beauty of the TD, you have so many options on how to use it.

    Your options are numerous.

    Buck



    [This message has been edited by Buck (edited 12-17-2000).]

  5. #25
    Sand Creek Lynn
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I can see some obvious advantages to the turbo draft in some situations but unless I'm missing something in my case I'm better off with a large pump [1800 gpm] and dry hydrants.

    Reasons:
    Pump is a low investment. About $2200.00 total with Corps of Engineers surplus pump [fairly easy to find] and some new hose and fittings.

    My dry hydrants are all in flowing water.No other options here. This is a problem in winter since the ice is never a constant reliable thickness. Too dangerous to go onto and cut a hole. And even if we could its still easier, faster and safer to just hook on and pump.


    Hydrants are relatively cheap. Less than $1000 a piece with volunteer labor. Sometimes we get the digging done free or at a reduced cost.

    Seems to work well for us and in our situation I believe its a better alternative than a turbo draft.

    Or am I missing something?

    Lynn.



    [This message has been edited by Sand Creek Lynn (edited 12-18-2000).]

  6. #26
    Chief Fairbanks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile

    ok,ok... I didn't mean to cause a big rucus.
    I am glad I have some good people to ask fire questions.I think we have to all think what will work best for each of us.After talking to Buck I feel due to the expence I already have in dry hydrants, the fact I would only use either, 1 or 2 times a year and the small size of my dept, I feel this would not be for me at this time. I do see a real benifit for some larger Dept. with a little more water supplies and more coverage area.The same old rule applies ... Do what works best for you! I am glad I found this group of people, I will call on you in the future.

    ------------------
    Chief Fairbanks
    Fairbanks Fire/Rescue

  7. #27
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    A portable pump and dry hydrants better than a turbo draft?

    Do you realy have 1800 gpm dry hydrants? Takes two six inch lines or an 8 inch to supply 1800 gpm to a pumper. You have dual 6 inch dry hydrant connections plumbed with 8 to 10 inch pipe and lifts of 4 to 6 feet max? No maintenance needed on them? How long will it take you to get a pump there and draft? $1000 a crack for dry hydrants versus every two hydrants equipping each rig with the ablity to lift water 40 feet verticaly and 4 to 500 feet in distance. What do you do when the portable pump doesn't work? A portable pump with two large turbo drafts will fill at 3600 gpm.

  8. #28
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    You've mentioned flows of over 1200 GPM with the turbo draft. How are you setting this thing up? Per the TD web site you will get 670 gpm at best from it.

    I'm not opposed to looking for other options. But prefer the cisterns where applicable. One good idea that I have seen is attaching a cistern (concrete vault) to a pond with large pipe and a valve. (in place of dry hydrants) when fire companies arrive they open the valve flooding the cistern then the engine can draft away. No ice to break, minimal maint. on the flooding valve and you have as much water as the pond holds. Sure it is expensive to initially set up, but cheaper than a municipal water system, and more dependable than dry hydrants.

  9. #29
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    Originally posted by Buck:
    ###First you tell me that you need a pumper because the TurboDraft cannot overcome the resistance of gravity on the water in the tanker.###

    I never said that.

    (edited 12-17-2000).]
    Well... this is what you said...

    --------------------------------------------
    ///Also, can this thing fill directly into a tanker, or do you need to go through a pumper to defeat the back pressure a tanker would generate?? ///

    You need it to go back to the pumper to supply you with water because you need to constantly supply the TD. Unless you have a small pump ( 300 - 500 gpm) that is on a draft.
    --------------------------------------------
    so I am still not sure if you can plug the LDH off of the TurboDraft directly into a tanker... or if you need to put that water into a pumper or a fold-a-tank and draft from that and fill the tankers...

    Oh hell.. we'll probably just continue to put the big pumper at the fill site and eliminate all of this confusion... I sent for some info from TurboDraft, maybe they will make some sense of it for me.


    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  10. #30
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///flows of over 1200 GPM / Per TD , 670 gpm at best///

    I am able to get over 730 gpm off of one TD using 3" in and 5" out laid out 150' away and lifting 15'.

    All of TD's numbers are using 2 1/2" in.

    At 250' away and lifting 25' using two TD's we were able to move over 1250 gpm.

    In every evolution I have used the TD in, we were able to move more water than listed on the TD website.

    ///fill directly into a tanker///

    Yes. I apologize for not being clear in my answer. There is just so many different options in using the TD.

    ///so I am still not sure if you can plug the LDH off of the TurboDraft directly into a tanker... or if you need to put that water into a pumper or a fold-a-tank and draft from that and fill the tankers...///

    You can do all of those different ways you listed.

    Buck


    [This message has been edited by Buck (edited 12-17-2000).]

  11. #31
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We've all reviewed the web site.

    If the TD can lift (actually push)

    800gpm 30'
    680gpm 35'
    590gpm 40'
    250gpm 48'

    Shouldn't it be able to fill a tanker with a head no higher than 10' or so?

  12. #32
    HAL
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    The lifts that Mr. Cook is refering to are based on using hard sleeve or connecting the TD to a dry hydrant. In this situation you are actually performing a draft assist. The TD overcomes the first 20-25' of lift and your pump drafts the remaining column of water,this can only be done if you use hard sleeve off the truck.

    If your water source is frozen over cut a hole just as you would for your hard sleeve strainer.

    The TurboDraft is not a "fix-all" tool, but it does offer the ability to access water that in the past your Department would never even consider using. Its operation is very simple and again easy to set up .Think outside the box,not all new tools are gimicks this one does work!

  13. #33
    bobgresh
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Chief Fairbanks,
    Mine is a small dept. servicing over 300 square miles of a mostly rural county. (pop. approx.4200) We use a lot of dry hydrants. I can see with enough trucks, and the TD device, that you could really move some water. But, we have no tankers. We can refill our trucks with a portable pump system, or just from draft at the dry hydrant. Most of the areas, you can't get close enough to draft directly from the water source, so the dry hydrant is set with a gravel pad. We usually place a portable pump, or an older truck, at the fill site, to fill involved trucks when we have a big fire. On smaller brush fires, we just go fill when needed. Not an ideal situation, but all we can afford now. By the way, the county usually provides the backhoe for installation, we do the labor, and the local TNRCC office pays for the dry hydrant itself.

  14. #34
    Sand Creek Lynn
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry lets talk.

    A portable pump and dry hydrants better than a turbo draft?
    Do you realy have 1800 gpm dry hydrants? Takes two six inch lines or an 8 inch to supply 1800 gpm to a pumper. You have dual 6 inch dry hydrant connections plumbed with 8 to 10 inch pipe and lifts of 4 to 6 feet max?

    ---------------------------------------

    No I use 1 6" line and although on paper the numbers don't look so good it works. We have done it. Would I want to run this setup all day every day as in irrigation? No. But for short operating times it works fine.
    --------------------
    No maintenance needed on them? [Hydrants]

    Yes we flush them twice a year. And use this as part of our training.
    ----------------------------------

    How long will it take you to get a pump there and draft?

    The same time it takes to get a turbo draft and the pump for it there. And my arrival time to water flow is less.Furthermore in winter I don't have to put people on dangerous ice to cut a hole.

    --------------------------------
    $1000 a crack for dry hydrants versus every two hydrants equipping each rig with the ablity to lift water 40 feet verticaly and 4 to 500 feet in distance.

    I don't have to lift water 40 feet here. A
    non issue for me. And I'm not moving water long distances. I'm filling tankers.

    ----------------

    What do you do when the portable pump doesn't work?

    Go to plan B. Same as you do when the pump you use for a TD doesn't work.

    ------------------------------------

    Larry I'm not saying nor did I say this is the setup that is best for everyone. But is seems to be better than a TD for us. As I said before if I'm missing something let me know. So far from what you have written I'm not convinced I am.

    Lynn

  15. #35
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    I am still waiting for my literature from Turbo Draft... but in the meantime, can someone tell me a ballpark figure of what these things cost?



    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  16. #36
    HAL
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    The TurboDraft Approx. cost is $2,495.00.

  17. #37
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///servicing over 300 square miles of a mostly rural county.//But, we have no tankers.///

    Bob, sounds like ya'll should have bought our old 3000 gal tanker along with that pierce pumper.

    /// Most of the areas, you can't get close enough to draft directly from the water source,//

    That is what is nice about the Turbo Draft. You can access any static source.

    Richard, Did you ever get your literature from S&K on the TD's?

    Buck

  18. #38
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Originally posted by Buck:
    [BRichard, Did you ever get your literature from S&K on the TD's?

    Buck[/B]
    Yep.. got the info, read it over and passed it along to one of the local fire chiefs that could do a better job of evaluating it than I could. I don't see our department paying the cost for one and then having to buy some 5" hose to make it work. But there are other departments in the area that might find the tool useful.



    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  19. #39
    Hosekey21
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Can the Turbo Draft work with 4 inch hose and less flow?

  20. #40
    HAL
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You can use 4" hose, however you will derease your flow by almost half.Check your friction loss charts , at this gpm and pressure the 5" makes a big difference. On the inlet side (2 1/2") you need 200gpm@150psi to keep the device operating.
    Think about buying or borrowing 100'-200' of 5" and dead loading it in your hose bed just for this device.In the long run it will be more cost effective than instaling dry-hydrants everywhere.
    Check out the article in the 2001 Jan/Feb issue of Fire Apparatus Magazine,this may give you some other ideas.

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