12-17-2000, 10:14 AM #26Chief FairbanksFirehouse.com Guest
ok,ok... I didn't mean to cause a big rucus.
I am glad I have some good people to ask fire questions.I think we have to all think what will work best for each of us.After talking to Buck I feel due to the expence I already have in dry hydrants, the fact I would only use either, 1 or 2 times a year and the small size of my dept, I feel this would not be for me at this time. I do see a real benifit for some larger Dept. with a little more water supplies and more coverage area.The same old rule applies ... Do what works best for you! I am glad I found this group of people, I will call on you in the future.
12-17-2000, 11:31 AM #27LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
A portable pump and dry hydrants better than a turbo draft?
Do you realy have 1800 gpm dry hydrants? Takes two six inch lines or an 8 inch to supply 1800 gpm to a pumper. You have dual 6 inch dry hydrant connections plumbed with 8 to 10 inch pipe and lifts of 4 to 6 feet max? No maintenance needed on them? How long will it take you to get a pump there and draft? $1000 a crack for dry hydrants versus every two hydrants equipping each rig with the ablity to lift water 40 feet verticaly and 4 to 500 feet in distance. What do you do when the portable pump doesn't work? A portable pump with two large turbo drafts will fill at 3600 gpm.
12-17-2000, 02:21 PM #28ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
You've mentioned flows of over 1200 GPM with the turbo draft. How are you setting this thing up? Per the TD web site you will get 670 gpm at best from it.
I'm not opposed to looking for other options. But prefer the cisterns where applicable. One good idea that I have seen is attaching a cistern (concrete vault) to a pond with large pipe and a valve. (in place of dry hydrants) when fire companies arrive they open the valve flooding the cistern then the engine can draft away. No ice to break, minimal maint. on the flooding valve and you have as much water as the pond holds. Sure it is expensive to initially set up, but cheaper than a municipal water system, and more dependable than dry hydrants.
12-17-2000, 04:33 PM #29MetalMedicFirehouse.com GuestOriginally posted by Buck:
###First you tell me that you need a pumper because the TurboDraft cannot overcome the resistance of gravity on the water in the tanker.###
I never said that.
///Also, can this thing fill directly into a tanker, or do you need to go through a pumper to defeat the back pressure a tanker would generate?? ///
You need it to go back to the pumper to supply you with water because you need to constantly supply the TD. Unless you have a small pump ( 300 - 500 gpm) that is on a draft.
so I am still not sure if you can plug the LDH off of the TurboDraft directly into a tanker... or if you need to put that water into a pumper or a fold-a-tank and draft from that and fill the tankers...
Oh hell.. we'll probably just continue to put the big pumper at the fill site and eliminate all of this confusion... I sent for some info from TurboDraft, maybe they will make some sense of it for me.
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
12-17-2000, 07:40 PM #30BuckFirehouse.com Guest
///flows of over 1200 GPM / Per TD , 670 gpm at best///
I am able to get over 730 gpm off of one TD using 3" in and 5" out laid out 150' away and lifting 15'.
All of TD's numbers are using 2 1/2" in.
At 250' away and lifting 25' using two TD's we were able to move over 1250 gpm.
In every evolution I have used the TD in, we were able to move more water than listed on the TD website.
///fill directly into a tanker///
Yes. I apologize for not being clear in my answer. There is just so many different options in using the TD.
///so I am still not sure if you can plug the LDH off of the TurboDraft directly into a tanker... or if you need to put that water into a pumper or a fold-a-tank and draft from that and fill the tankers...///
You can do all of those different ways you listed.
[This message has been edited by Buck (edited 12-17-2000).]
12-17-2000, 10:19 PM #31S. CookFirehouse.com Guest
We've all reviewed the web site.
If the TD can lift (actually push)
Shouldn't it be able to fill a tanker with a head no higher than 10' or so?
12-17-2000, 11:55 PM #32HALFirehouse.com Guest
The lifts that Mr. Cook is refering to are based on using hard sleeve or connecting the TD to a dry hydrant. In this situation you are actually performing a draft assist. The TD overcomes the first 20-25' of lift and your pump drafts the remaining column of water,this can only be done if you use hard sleeve off the truck.
If your water source is frozen over cut a hole just as you would for your hard sleeve strainer.
The TurboDraft is not a "fix-all" tool, but it does offer the ability to access water that in the past your Department would never even consider using. Its operation is very simple and again easy to set up .Think outside the box,not all new tools are gimicks this one does work!
12-20-2000, 05:05 PM #33bobgreshFirehouse.com Guest
Mine is a small dept. servicing over 300 square miles of a mostly rural county. (pop. approx.4200) We use a lot of dry hydrants. I can see with enough trucks, and the TD device, that you could really move some water. But, we have no tankers. We can refill our trucks with a portable pump system, or just from draft at the dry hydrant. Most of the areas, you can't get close enough to draft directly from the water source, so the dry hydrant is set with a gravel pad. We usually place a portable pump, or an older truck, at the fill site, to fill involved trucks when we have a big fire. On smaller brush fires, we just go fill when needed. Not an ideal situation, but all we can afford now. By the way, the county usually provides the backhoe for installation, we do the labor, and the local TNRCC office pays for the dry hydrant itself.
12-20-2000, 06:23 PM #34Sand Creek LynnFirehouse.com Guest
Larry lets talk.
A portable pump and dry hydrants better than a turbo draft?
Do you realy have 1800 gpm dry hydrants? Takes two six inch lines or an 8 inch to supply 1800 gpm to a pumper. You have dual 6 inch dry hydrant connections plumbed with 8 to 10 inch pipe and lifts of 4 to 6 feet max?
No I use 1 6" line and although on paper the numbers don't look so good it works. We have done it. Would I want to run this setup all day every day as in irrigation? No. But for short operating times it works fine.
No maintenance needed on them? [Hydrants]
Yes we flush them twice a year. And use this as part of our training.
How long will it take you to get a pump there and draft?
The same time it takes to get a turbo draft and the pump for it there. And my arrival time to water flow is less.Furthermore in winter I don't have to put people on dangerous ice to cut a hole.
$1000 a crack for dry hydrants versus every two hydrants equipping each rig with the ablity to lift water 40 feet verticaly and 4 to 500 feet in distance.
I don't have to lift water 40 feet here. A
non issue for me. And I'm not moving water long distances. I'm filling tankers.
What do you do when the portable pump doesn't work?
Go to plan B. Same as you do when the pump you use for a TD doesn't work.
Larry I'm not saying nor did I say this is the setup that is best for everyone. But is seems to be better than a TD for us. As I said before if I'm missing something let me know. So far from what you have written I'm not convinced I am.
12-20-2000, 07:04 PM #35MetalMedicFirehouse.com Guest
I am still waiting for my literature from Turbo Draft... but in the meantime, can someone tell me a ballpark figure of what these things cost?
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
12-20-2000, 07:14 PM #36HALFirehouse.com Guest
The TurboDraft Approx. cost is $2,495.00.
01-12-2001, 04:01 AM #37BuckFirehouse.com Guest
///servicing over 300 square miles of a mostly rural county.//But, we have no tankers.///
Bob, sounds like ya'll should have bought our old 3000 gal tanker along with that pierce pumper.
/// Most of the areas, you can't get close enough to draft directly from the water source,//
That is what is nice about the Turbo Draft. You can access any static source.
Richard, Did you ever get your literature from S&K on the TD's?
01-12-2001, 04:14 PM #38MetalMedicFirehouse.com GuestOriginally posted by Buck:
[BRichard, Did you ever get your literature from S&K on the TD's?
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
01-12-2001, 06:47 PM #39Hosekey21Firehouse.com Guest
Can the Turbo Draft work with 4 inch hose and less flow?
01-12-2001, 10:36 PM #40HALFirehouse.com Guest
You can use 4" hose, however you will derease your flow by almost half.Check your friction loss charts , at this gpm and pressure the 5" makes a big difference. On the inlet side (2 1/2") you need 200gpm@150psi to keep the device operating.
Think about buying or borrowing 100'-200' of 5" and dead loading it in your hose bed just for this device.In the long run it will be more cost effective than instaling dry-hydrants everywhere.
Check out the article in the 2001 Jan/Feb issue of Fire Apparatus Magazine,this may give you some other ideas.
01-12-2001, 10:48 PM #4186RescuetechFirehouse.com Guest
Chief, I came from a wet system(hydrants) and just recently moved to more of a rural setting. We are currently using a tanker strike force consisting of six tankers plus the host company's tanker. This a an automatic dispatch. Most of the departments in my area have a Water Supply Officer. His/her sole job is to find and maintain a water supply. easy right? I thought so until I tried it. Your main question is how much flow. That all depends on what your set up is. We use a double 3000 gallon porta-pond with a jet siphon and a host pumper (1500gpm minimum, 1000 gallon tank). The cycle of tankers is one every three to five minutes(sometimes longer) depending on where we get thge water from. This keeps us flowing between 1000-1500gpm. We have some hydrants, but only on the major roads. They are 16-18" mains and can only flow around 1500 gpm. We have a few "monster tankers" but most are 3000 gallon with 10" auto dumps. It is critical to get the water on the road ASAP. I hear some companies waiting for a tanker dispatch cause they think they can get it with theirs. 9 out of 10 times, they are wrong. Like I said, I am new to this "rolling hydrant" system. I hope this helped. Be safe
02-10-2001, 03:43 PM #42FF/Medic27Firehouse.com Guest
In Belmont County, Ohio we've coordinated a tanker task force to respond to every fire district in the county. If requested, the FD gets either 5 or 6 tankers and 3 engines. One of the engines is placed at the dump tank site and the other 2 are fill engines, either drafting or using a nearby pressurized system. On a recent barn fire (full of haybales), the task force flowed 557 gpm for 20 hours. Last week a gasoline tanker rolled on I-70 spilling 3000 gallons of gas. The tanker task force was requested and supplied enough water to spread 250 gallons of AFFF foam. In my department, we used it last year to suppliment the pressurized system for a commercial fire. The system works for us but not all of the officers are keen on requesting it right away. Our department has it dispatched on the first alarm for non-hydranted areas and as needed in town.
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