1. #1
    Chief Fairbanks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question Water Water no where .. Rural America

    We are an all rural fire dept. We have no water supply in our township. I started about 3 years ago installing "Dry Hydrants" in some farm ponds along the road.We use our Brush truck to fill Tankers to shuttle water.

    How many dept. are in the same situation?
    and how much water can you flow during a tanker shuttle operation ?
    How many tankers do you usually use in a SHUTTLE OPERATION ?

    ------------------
    Chief Fairbanks
    Fairbanks Fire/Rescue

  2. #2
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile

    You have the right idea... but you might need to re-think what truck you put on the dry hydrant to fill tankers. On your fire scene you will never be able to exceed the pumping capacity of the truck doing the filling. Ideally, you want to place the pump with the largest capacity on the fill site.

    For us, the number of tankers will depend on how far you are from the fill site, and how much fire flow the fire demands. Most departments around here will have 3-5 tankers in service when they reach a 2nd alarm fire.



    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  3. #3
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You might want to look at using a turbo draft instead of installing dry hydrants. It's much cheaper and you can access any and I mean any water source.

    In a tanker shuttle using all six of our 3000 gal tankers and our two 1500 gal pumper/tankers we can move 2500 gpm in a 1/2 mile shuttle,1500 gpm in a two mile shuttle and 840 gpm in a five mile shuttle.

    email me if you want more info on the Turbo Drafts.

    Buck

  4. #4
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Give the turbo draft a try. Drafting with a brush truck you can supply roughly 800gpm to a fill site or fire.

  5. #5
    Sand Creek Lynn
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We were in a similar situation. Found a 6" diesel powered pump from govt. surplus.
    Will fill tankers at 1800 GPM. $1200.00
    And another $1000 or so in hose, fittings, misc.
    If buying new tankers pay attention to getting the largest dump valves possible. If dumping into folding tank at the engine set up two, each being larger than the largest tanker so you can keep trucks shuttling instead of waiting to dump.

    Check with any depts. you use as mutual aid to make sure hydrant connections, tanker cannections, etc. match theirs.

    Never during practice dump a jug of liquid soap into an empty tanker and send it back to the fill site when the excitable new guy is filling tankers.

    Lynn

  6. #6
    AVF&R452
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Lynn:

    I bet that got his attention!! I will try that on the next drill. Smart***** probie has it coming.


    Jim

  7. #7
    CAP182
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    CHIEF,
    I AGREE WITH BUCK AND S.COOK TAKE A GOOD LONG HARD LOOK AT THE TURBO DRAFTS THEY ARE THE ANSWER YOU ARE LOOKING FOR. IT TAKES OUT THE " I CANT GET CLOSE ENOUGH TO DRAFT " SITUAATION. WE HAVE 12 IN MY DEPT 1 ON EVERY ENG AND TANKER.

    HOPE WE HELPED

  8. #8
    FiRsqDvr45
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The towns of Lee and Madbury NH have recently started mandating certain properties and developments to install 10 to 30 thousand gallon cisterns to provide a water source in non hydranted areas. This provides a drafting site for fire attack and tanker filling and allows for a little more time for the arrival of tankers and the set up of a shuttle operation. It may be an option to explore. The problem that we have found with the dry hydrants in ponds and such is that after a while they become clogged or they fill them selves in over time. It becomes and issue of whether or not the owner or FD is responsible for maintaining them and who is liable if they dont work and someone loses a life or a building. I know that back home in Minnesota some farmers have met with local FD's to mount FD fittings to there crop irrigation systems ( those long pipes with a plethora of spray guns on them in the fields)to be use for filling trucks. Some of those wells put out a decent amount of water and pressure. We start using tankers in Newington when we reach around the 2nd or 3rd alarm depending on district or when the hydrant system becomes taxed. Each alarm sends roughly one engine(of at least 1250gpm) for a fill unit to a predesignated site and 3 or 4 tankers. if memory serves me correctly each alarm is designed for around 300-500gpm.

    I would like to hear more about this Turbo Draft you talked about alos Buck, sounds neat.

    ------------------
    FF/EMT Jay Ellingson
    Newington,NH FD
    &
    New England Dragway Safety Team (Sundaaayy!)
    Be Safe!

  9. #9
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //how much water can you flow during a tanker shuttle operation ?

    7700 gpm at 1 mile and 1105 at 15 miles


    //How many tankers do you usually use in a SHUTTLE OPERATION

    Depends on the need, none to 20

    //you might need to re-think what truck you put on the dry hydrant to fill tankers. On your fire scene you will never be able to exceed the pumping capacity of the truck doing the filling. Ideally, you want to place the pump with the largest capacity on the fill site. //

    We use the smallest pumper and a Couple Turbo Drafts, so yes a pump can pump three to 6 times its pump capacity.

    For ISO to count your cisterns they need to be at least 30,000 gallons


  10. #10
    HAL
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    If your Brush Unit/Attack truck has a good size pump(300-400gpm),you could get close enough to draft with this lighter weight vehicle and pump into a TurboDraft to double + your flow to a porta tank or tanker fill site. This unit is very effective for accessing those out of reach fill sites,and maybe shortening shuttle distances or eliminating them all together.

  11. #11
    DWC
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    How does the Turbo Draft work? It sounds like an excellent tool, but I don't exactly understand how it operates. What situations are best suited for its use?

  12. #12
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    do a search on the forums for turbo draft and you can see pictures. It is basically a big foam eductor. Each gallon in brings 2 4 back out. Yesterday we lifted water 25 feet verticallty and flowed 1250 gpm to fill tankes 250 feet from the water source using soft hose

  13. #13
    HAL
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Like LHS said, the TurboDraft is a big eductor(about 50 lbs.) Quik set-up, take a 2 1/2" or 3" from a pump discharge,and connect to TD inlet.Connect 5" LDH to outlet of TD and other end into pump intake valve.Submerge unit into 2 ft. of water.Open tank to pump, pressurize TD (150-175psi),the 5" will fill instantly. Quik water from a distance using conventional LDH and one attack line.The unit is portable and can be set up very fast! Check out the web-site WWW.TurboDraft.net

  14. #14
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    I have not seen this "TurboDraft" device other than in an advertisement. I just checked out the webpage and it appears to be an overgrown jet-siphon like we use in multiple portable tank operations. From the design of the thing, it looks like it could become a victim to debris (ie. mud and gravel) in the water source. Also, can this thing fill directly into a tanker, or do you need to go through a pumper to defeat the back pressure a tanker would generate??



    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  15. #15
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///From the design of the thing, it looks like it could become a victim to debris (ie. mud and gravel) in the water source.///

    I have never experienced a problem with the TD clogging. You can take a couple of empty foam buckets and float the TD 2' under the water and you don't have to worry about the mud.

    If it did clog up all you have to do is close your intake and keep on pumping water to it to blow it out.

    ///Also, can this thing fill directly into a tanker, or do you need to go through a pumper to defeat the back pressure a tanker would generate?? ///

    You need it to go back to the pumper to supply you with water because you need to constantly supply the TD. Unless you have a small pump ( 300 - 500 gpm) that is on a draft.

    With a 500 gpm pump you can supply two Turbo Drafts and produce flow over 1200 gpm.

    Buck

  16. #16
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Originally posted by Buck:
    [b}
    ///Also, can this thing fill directly into a tanker, or do you need to go through a pumper to defeat the back pressure a tanker would generate?? ///

    You need it to go back to the pumper to supply you with water because you need to constantly supply the TD. Unless you have a small pump ( 300 - 500 gpm) that is on a draft.

    With a 500 gpm pump you can supply two Turbo Drafts and produce flow over 1200 gpm.

    Buck[/b]
    So that brings me back to the original dilemma. If the Turbo Draft is used to nurse a pumper at the fill site that must then fill the tankers, how can you exceed the capacity of that pumper at the fire scene in a water shuttle?





    [This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited 12-16-2000).]

  17. #17
    Sand Creek Lynn
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    How do you use a turbo draft in winter when your pond is frozen?

    Lynn

  18. #18
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Metal Medic,

    Are you telling me a pump will not pump over it's rated amount when it has a pressurized water source coming in?

    AS LHS said we flowed 1250 gpm at a 25' lift 250' foot away from the water source. That is net gpm after you take away the water needed to supply the TD.

    Now just think about this. Take a Booster truck that has a 500 gpm pump and put it at draft. Now use the water you pump off the booster to supply the Turbo Drafts and you can easily pump 1200 gpm out 250' and lift the water to 25'.

    Using that system you just more than doubled your pump capacity.


    ///How do you use a turbo draft in winter when your pond is frozen?///

    How do you draft when the pond is frozen?

    I live in Texas and I don't have any experience dealing with frozen sources. But with water being being a very important part of our business I would figure out a way to deal with Frozen Water.

    It seems like I read a article about Sister Bay, Wisconsin that does not seem to have a problem with frozen water.

    Buck

  19. #19
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    It seems like I read a article about Sister Bay, Wisconsin that does not seem to have a problem with frozen water.

    I don't seem to recall them mentioning Turbo drafts in the article I saw...they used lightweight hard suction.

    Sandy Lynn's question was if/how Turbo Drafts work with ice.

    I don't have experience with them, but I'd imagine they'd work. I'd think you'd might have to jiggle the hoses some, especially if the siphon moves in a way to kink them before charging. Kinking, of course, isn't something that's a problem with hard suction.

    Anyone have deep freezing experience with them?

    Matt

  20. #20
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Originally posted by Buck:
    Metal Medic,

    Are you telling me a pump will not pump over it's rated amount when it has a pressurized water source coming in?
    First you tell me that you need a pumper because the TurboDraft cannot overcome the resistance of gravity on the water in the tanker... then you tell me that your water is coming into the pumper under pressure... make up your mind. If it can't push water into a tanker, would there be sufficient pressure to make any real difference in what is basically a glorified relay pumping situation?




    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  21. #21
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Think of it this way...

    Your pump is at a normal draft, hard suction hose in the water and lines coming off to fight the fire.

    BUT;

    Instead of the lines being used to fight the fire, they're supplying 2 turbo drafts (TD). And these TDs are supplying either tankers, fill site dump tanks or attack engines.

    Since the engine the TDs are being supplied from is supplying itself with water from it's hard suction, a return (or supply for it) from the TDs back to it is not needed.

    Another option if you were too far away to draft would be to return one TD to the draft engine and pump multiple TDs from it to fire, fill site or tankers.

  22. #22
    Larry Welle
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink



    WOW !

  23. #23
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    How do you use it through ice? Just like you would a hard suction hose. If we'd used three turbo drafts or a 6 inch version we would have flowed 1800 gpm on an investment of 600 gpm.

  24. #24
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ###First you tell me that you need a pumper because the TurboDraft cannot overcome the resistance of gravity on the water in the tanker.###

    I never said that.

    ###then you tell me that your water is coming into the pumper under pressure.###

    Yes it comes back to you under pressure. Remember we are working with all soft hose. No hard suction involved.

    ###make up your mind.###

    That's the beauty of the TD, you have so many options on how to use it.

    Your options are numerous.

    Buck



    [This message has been edited by Buck (edited 12-17-2000).]

  25. #25
    Sand Creek Lynn
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I can see some obvious advantages to the turbo draft in some situations but unless I'm missing something in my case I'm better off with a large pump [1800 gpm] and dry hydrants.

    Reasons:
    Pump is a low investment. About $2200.00 total with Corps of Engineers surplus pump [fairly easy to find] and some new hose and fittings.

    My dry hydrants are all in flowing water.No other options here. This is a problem in winter since the ice is never a constant reliable thickness. Too dangerous to go onto and cut a hole. And even if we could its still easier, faster and safer to just hook on and pump.


    Hydrants are relatively cheap. Less than $1000 a piece with volunteer labor. Sometimes we get the digging done free or at a reduced cost.

    Seems to work well for us and in our situation I believe its a better alternative than a turbo draft.

    Or am I missing something?

    Lynn.



    [This message has been edited by Sand Creek Lynn (edited 12-18-2000).]

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