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  1. #1
    BOMBERODAVE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question SOLID BORE NOZZELS ON ATTACK LINES

    OK........ FORGET I ASKED.
    THE REASON FOR THIS POST WAS FOR MY PERSONAL/DEPARTMENT INFORMATION. NOT FOR REPLY/MEMBER BASHING. I HAD THIS PROBLEM BEFORE AND HAD A KID BOTHER ME....FOR A GOOD WHILE.
    SO GUYS SORRY AND THANKS. I HAVE ALL THE INFO. I NEED.

    [This message has been edited by BOMBERODAVE (edited 12-19-2000).]


  2. #2
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //I LIKE THE FOG BUT I AM TIRED OF STEAMING MYSELF //

    Then use your perfectly good nozzle in the straight stream position, oh try ventilating before you spray water.

    //SO WHAT ARE THE OTHER BENIFITS OF SOLID STREAMS FOR AN INTERIOR ATTACK?

    They look nice and traditional next to a leather helmet and everyone will think your a fdny firefighter. The fire doesn't care what you use gallons put it out.

  3. #3
    E229Lt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    1. Higher flow with lower pressure.
    2. Lower nozzle reaction.
    3. Better penetration.
    4. Less air movement.
    5. Poor flow becomes more obvious.
    6. Reduced risk of roll-over.
    7. Ease of line movement.
    8. Hydraulic overhaul.
    9. Better reach.
    10. More clog resistant.

  4. #4
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    1. Higher flow with lower pressure.

    Not always

    2. Lower nozzle reaction.

    Not always

    3. Better penetration.

    Rarely

    4. Less air movement.

    Depends if you're comparing straight stream and straight stream

    5. Poor flow becomes more obvious.

    Huh?

    6. Reduced risk of roll-over.

    Yeah right!

    7. Ease of line movement.

    Not really

    8. Hydraulic overhaul.

    Identical or less

    9. Better reach.

    Not likely ever

    10. More clog resistant.

    Yep!

  5. #5
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Dave, first thing, the AKRON Chief is NOT an automatic nozzle. Akron makes the AKROMATIC which is an automatic with a volume control ring.
    Every nozzle has a purpose Fog, Solid, and specialty (foam, piercing, cellar, the Vindicator). Which nozzle you use will depend on your tactics and the types of fires you get.

    Take any fog nozzle flowing 150 GPM and put it next to a smoothbore flowing 150 GPM and you will have lower nozzle reaction on the smoothbore.

    The solid core of water from the smoothbore will travel farther before turning to steam than a fog nozzle on straight stream. Therefore in a well involved structure you are more likely to hit what's burning with a ss.

    If a ss is underpressurized, due to kinks or pump operator error it will be obvious due to a dramatic lack of reach. On an automatic the nozzle will give you a stream that looks good but has no punch. ( a very dangerous condition )

    When moving a line, while flowing, the less nozzle reaction the easier it will be to move the line. With a lower tip pressure the ss is easier to move.

    The ss does a better job overhauling bundles like hay, cotton, paper, because it penetrates better. Put a .5" overhaul tip on and it slices through debris like a knife.

    Also because the solid stream doesn't turn to steam as quickly, visibility is maintained much better. This can be seen in a video put out by fire chief magazine called Smooth bore nozzles.

    A fog nozzle vents smoke better than a ss. The fog also can be used to protect members shutting off gas valves at a gas fire. But for aggressive interior firefighting the more water you put on the fire, the easiest way possible, is the way to go.

    Stay Safe

    Other information can be obtained from the book "Fire stream management handbook" by Fornell. Fire engineering books / PennWell
    And also look at the Vindicator for a truly easy to manage high flow nozzle.

  6. #6
    FitzBFDT2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have to agree with the Lou's excellent 10 points and say that LHS* provides nothing to substantiate the 2 and 3 word answers given.

    1. Higher flow with lower pressure.Not always
    Every combination or automatic or select gallonage nozzle except for 1 that I know of requires 100 psi at the tip to get the flows that are specified. With a smooth bore, all you need is 55 to 60 psi psi at the tip to get a flow of 170-175 gpm with a 7/8" tip for an 1 3/4" line. Also with a 2 1/2" line with a 1 1/4" tip you can get 340-360 gpm with nozzle pressures of 55-60 psi.

    2. Lower nozzle reaction.Not always
    Comparing straight stream from a combination nozzle operating at 100 psi at the tip and flowing 175 gpm, you will have a nozzle reaction of 87.5 pounds. Using a 7/8" tip with an 1 3/4" line flowing the same 175 gpm will give you a nozzle reaction of 72.5 pounds. The only way you are going to get any closer is if you widen the stream and that is not conducive to aggressive interior firefighting.

    3. Better penetration. Rarely
    What the Lou is talking about hear is not reach or distance, but the penetration capablities of a solid stream hitting a surface and penetrating it rather than a group of droplets hitting the same surface and bouncing off.

    4. Less air movement. Depends if you're comparing straight stream and straight stream
    If we are talking about interior structural firefighting a straight stream is all we should be comparing.

    5. Poor flow becomes more obvious.Huh?
    What I think the Lou means here is that the more you use one in comparison to the other in actual interior firefighting situations, the poor flow will become more obvious when the same room and contents fires are taking longer to put out with a combination as opposed to a smooth bore.

    6. Reduced risk of roll-over.Yeah right!
    When you are putting more water on the fire which means that the fire is darkening down, you will have a reduced risk of rollover.

    7. Ease of line movement. Not really
    When you have less nozzle reaction and less pressure in the line, it will be easier to move, especially at the tip.

    8. Hydraulic overhaul.Identical or less
    We purchase our nozzles for the purpose of supression, not for their hydraulic overhaul capabilities. Even so, the smooth bore will do a good job in a hydraulic overhaul situation.

    9. Better reach.Not likely ever
    The combination may have a longer reach, but what type of quality will that stream have. The smooth bore will provide a better quality reach than the combination.

    10. More clog resistant. Yep!
    Having seen the result of a combination nozzle clog first hand(caught in a room that reignited after the nozzle clogged), I am glad we agree on something.

    Take care and be safe. Also, congrats on the ISO Class 1.



    ------------------
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry, bfdt2@fitzhenry.com
    Firefighter, Truck Co. 2
    City of Bayonne (NJ) FD
    www.bayonnenj.org/fire/

    [This message has been edited by FitzBFDT2 (edited 12-18-2000).]

  7. #7
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //Take any fog nozzle flowing 150 GPM and put it next to a smoothbore flowing 150 GPM and you will have lower nozzle reaction on the smoothbore.

    Akron says: 150 gpm SB equals 55 lbs
    150 gpm fog tip equals 48 lbs

    Hmmm, I guess the above statement doesn't hold true.


    //The solid core of water from the smoothbore will travel farther before turning to steam than a fog nozzle on straight stream. Therefore in a well involved structure you are more likely to hit what's burning with a ss.

    Oh really? how much further, can you cite a study? I can, there is no difference.


    //If a ss is underpressurized, due to kinks or pump operator error it will be obvious due to a dramatic lack of reach. On an automatic the nozzle will give you a stream that looks good but has no punch. ( a very dangerous condition )

    Yeah very very very very very dangerous situation. Like the nozzleman won't notice the fact thee isn't any reaction. Just another wives tale being told.

    //When moving a line, while flowing, the less nozzle reaction the easier it will be to move the line. With a lower tip pressure the ss is easier to move.

    Oh I see, It is impossible to use a fog tip with identical nozzle pressure and flow???? That is all ayone is selling. So it will always depend on flow and NP so either could win that competition.

    //The ss does a better job overhauling bundles like hay, cotton, paper, because it penetrates better.

    Penetration is a function of NP and gpm. The highest NP and flow win, in a majority of cases that would be the 100 psi fog tip at 100 not the SB at 50 or 80 psi.

    // Put a .5" overhaul tip on and it slices through debris like a knife.

    Here we go again high pressure smooth bore tip, but somehow youcan't have a low pressure fog.

    //Also because the solid stream

    No such thing as a solid stream, all nozzles break up the second they leave the nozzle.

    //doesn't turn to steam as quickly,//

    How quick, how much turns to steam??? Traveling at 27 mph with the ability to absorb 1/2 million btus how much heat is required to raise the water temperature to steam? Very simple formula, please tell us the difference between one and the other.

    // visibility is maintained much better.

    Ho MUCH better?

    //This can be seen in a video put out by fire chief magazine called Smooth bore nozzles.

    They compared fog versus SB and straight tips. They did not coparem straight streams out of both types of nozzles.

    //for aggressive interior firefighting the more water you put on the fire, the easiest way possible, is the way to go.

    Does that include an open butt?

    //LHS* provides nothing to substantiate the 2 and 3 word answers given.

    Here you go sweat heart!


    1. Higher flow with lower pressure.Not always
    Every combination or automatic or select gallonage nozzle except for 1 that I know of requires 100 psi at the tip to get the flows that are specified.

    EVERY MANUFACTURER(TFT, AKRON, ELKHART, KK, ETC) PROVIDES EVERY MAKE OF COMBINATION NOZZLE WITH 40 TO 125 PSI OPTIONS, AT FULL RATED FLOW ..IT IS IN ALL THEIR CATALOGS. THEY'LL EVEN CUSTOM MAKE SPECIAL FLOW AND PRESSURES AND HAVE FOR AT LEAST 20 YEARS

    With a smooth bore, all you need is 55 to 60 psi psi at the tip to get a flow of 170-175 gpm with a 7/8" tip for an 1 3/4" line. Also with a 2 1/2" line with a 1 1/4" tip you can get 340-360 gpm with nozzle pressures of 55-60 psi.

    OR 45 PSI WITH A 15/16. POR A 45 PSI FOG TIP.

    YOU CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING WITH A COMBINATION NOZZLE AT THE SAME OR LOWER NP'S

    2. Lower nozzle reaction.Not always
    Comparing straight stream from a combination nozzle operating at 100 psi at the tip and flowing 175 gpm, you will have a nozzle reaction of 87.5 pounds. Using a 7/8" tip with an 1 3/4" line flowing the same 175 gpm will give you a nozzle reaction of 72.5 pounds. The only way you are going to get any closer is if you widen the stream and that is not conducive to aggressive interior firefighting.

    YEP YOU'RE RIGHT NOW DO THE SAME CALCULATIONS FOR THE COMBINATION NOZZLES AT THE SAME NP'S AND YOU HAVE A TIE.

    NOW DO THE MATH WITH THE SB AT 100 PSI

    3. Better penetration. Rarely
    What the Lou is talking about hear is not reach or distance, but the penetration capablities of a solid stream hitting a surface and penetrating it rather than a group of droplets hitting the same surface and bouncing off.

    IT IS VELOCITY OF THE SAME AMOUNT OF WATER, SO A 1 INCH TIP AT 50 PSI IS STRIKING AT ONE HALF THE ENERGY AS A FOG TIP AT 100 PSI. wHAT IS REALLY HITTING IS 27 POUNDS PER SECOND OF WATER AT HALF SPEED.

    4. Less air movement. Depends if you're comparing straight stream and straight stream
    If we are talking about interior structural firefighting a straight stream is all we should be comparing.

    YEP

    5. Poor flow becomes more obvious.Huh?
    What I think the Lou means here is that the more you use one in comparison to the other in actual interior firefighting situations, the poor flow will become more obvious when the same room and contents fires are taking longer to put out with a combination as opposed to a smooth bore.

    LETS TALK ABOUT LOW FLOW, 150 FEET OF 2 1/2" HOSE AND A 1" SB TIP, PUMP PRESSURE IS 65 PSI, HOW MUCH ROOM FOR ERROR IS IN THAT EP? 10 PSI OR 20 PSI WILL NUKE THE CREW EITHER WAY, A 1 3/4" LIINE AT THE SAME FLOW AT 200 PSI IS MUCH MORE FORGIVING HYDRAULICALLY.

    AND WHEN BOTH ARE FLOWING THE SAME THING YOU DON'T NOTICE SQUAT. DON'T BLAME THE NOZZLE FOR LOW PUMP PRESSURE, LOUSY TRAINING PROGRAMS. SIMPLY USE THE HOSE AND NOZZLE AS INTENDED. IF NOT DON'T WHINE ABOUT THE NOZZLE. THE HUMAN IS THE WEEK LINK. WHEN YOU LOOK OUT THE WINDOW DO YOU SEE ANY FIRES BURNING? WHO DO YOU KNOW IS HAVING PROBLEMS PUTTING OUT ROOMS? IN ALMOST ALL CASES WE OVER APPLY COMPARED TO THE FIRE FLOW FORMULAS. SO HOW MUCH QUICKER ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

    SO WHAT DO YOU DO WITH YOUR SMOOTH BORE WHEN THE ATTACK PIECE CHARGES TWO LINES OFF A LIMITED SUPPLY AND YOU CAN SUPPLY BOTH STREAMS RTO 50 PSI? THE NOZZLE CAN'T HELP YOU BUT A COMBINATION TIP WITH FLOW RING OR AUTOMATIC CAN STILL GIVE A GOOD STREAM.

    6. Reduced risk of roll-over.Yeah right!
    When you are putting more water on the fire which means that the fire is darkening down, you will have a reduced risk of rollover.

    THE ASSUMPTION A sb PUTS MORE WATER ON A FIRE IS JUST THAT AN ASSUMPTION. EVERY FD WHO PUMPS THE RIGHT PRESSURES REGARDLESS OF NOZZLE IS DOING WHAT THE MANUFACTURER INTENEDED.

    THERE ARE STUDIES AND FILMS 20 TO 30 YEARS OLD SHOWING THE PROCESS OF STOPPING ROLLOVER WITH A FOG TIP. HOW DO YOU DO AN INDIRECT ATTACK WITH A SB TIP? HOW DO YOU PROTECT YOUR CREW WITH IT?

    7. Ease of line movement. Not really
    When you have less nozzle reaction and less pressure in the line, it will be easier to move, especially at the tip.

    EITHER TYPE NOZZLE CAN BE EQUAL, DEPENDS WHAT YOU SELECTED. a FIREFIGHTER WITH A 1 INCH HOSE AT 220 GPM IS HAVING AN EASIER GO OF IT THAN A 1 3/4" OR 2 1/2" LINE AT THE SAME FLOW.

    THE SIZE OF THE LINE YO'RE DRAGGINP PLAYS PART.

    8. Hydraulic overhaul.Identical or less
    We purchase our nozzles for the purpose of supression, not for their hydraulic overhaul capabilities. Even so, the smooth bore will do a good job in a hydraulic overhaul situation.

    SO WILL THE COMBO, HIGHER NP AND FLOW WINS

    9. Better reach.Not likely ever
    The combination may have a longer reach, but what type of quality will that stream have. The smooth bore will provide a better quality reach than the combination.

    99% OF THE FIREFIGHTERS AT A RECENT SCHOOL COULDN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 250 FOGS AD 250 SBS, 15/16 AND FOG STREAMS WHEN THEY COULDN'T SEE THE NOZZLES.

    100 PSI WILL ALWAYS OUT REACH 50 PSI. SO WILL 75

    10. More clog resistant. Yep!
    Having seen the result of a combination nozzle clog first hand(caught in a room that reignited after the nozzle clogged), I am glad we agree on something.

    THE NOZZLE IS INNOCENT THE USERS ARE GUILTY OF NOT SUPPLYING THEM PROPERLY. IF YOU BUY A PRODUCT AND DON'T USE IT AS INTEDED DON'T BLAME THE NOZZLE

  8. #8
    First-Due
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    Ok here we go Indirect - Direct Attack 101!!
    Everybody in my opinion has brought up very valid points in re; automatic,solid,combo, etc.
    There are many times when a solid stream attack (indirect,direct) is required
    ie; conditions upon arrival,atmosphere,manpower,wa ter supply,where are potential victims located etc.
    There are also times when a narrow fog attack is required such as maybe a 1-room contents,with no entrappment,hold stairwell or case a quick cool down etc. any how I do believe as a whole we as FF's need to do moreas a group with today's construction and what is inside these bldgs. to meet out needs for corrrect application of nozzle position and gpm flow. Just my thoughts.Let' Be Careful Out There

  9. #9
    FitzBFDT2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LDS*, I don't feel like getting in a ****ing match with you. I will say my piece and that's it.

    I understand what you are saying about 40 to 125 psi combinations but the only one I said I know of is a 175 gpm @ 75 PSI at the tip. Are you telling me that there is a combination nozzle out there that provides 175 gpm at 40 or 50 psi at the tip? If so, tell me who it is so I can bring it up to my Battalion. I will not bring anything less than 175 gpm into a private dwelling. So I base my whole statement on that.

    I went to the sites of the manufacturers you mentioned and came up with the Elkhart Brass constant gallonage 4000 series that flows 175 gpm @ 75psi and 200 gpm @75 psi. They are the ones we have on most of our engine companies.

    As far as doing the calculations with a SB at 100, I wouldn't want to. I would not go over 65 psi with a smooth bore 1 3/4" line because it would become increasingly difficult to handle. And that is right out of IFSTA's Fire Streams.

    I understand what you are saying about velocity. All I am saying is that it depends on the stream reaching the desired surface in the pattern it left the nozzle in.

    As far as Poor flows becoming obvious, I was trying to guess what the Lou was saying. My department doesn't have problems putting out room and content fires. And I agree with you in saying we over apply. As far as limited water supply, we don't have that problem. Hydrants flowing a minimum of 50 psi every 300'.

    Your are right in saying that the human is the weak link, but do not assume that it is because of weak training programs.

    The reason why we carry Fog nozzles is so that we can have the choice to carry out an indirect attack.

    As far as the last point, the pump operator was pumping properly but what happened was rust from the tank and sediment from a hydrant at a previous fire 4 hours earlier that settled in the tank, was sent up through the line and decided to stop at the tip because it could not get through. In my opinion, this would not have happened with a smooth bore.

    Also, I am on a Ladder Company for the past 7 years. I was assigned to an engine for my first year on the job and then a brief stint in the middle, so I in no way consider myself even close to being an expert in the field of hydraulics. But what I do have is 8 1/2 years of experience in an urban setting fighting fires agressively and from the interior. While this in itself also does not make me an expert, it does provide me with numerous first hand experiences of what does work good and what does work better in my city. While this pales in comparison with your 25 years of experience I think you understand where I am coming from.

    I am not challenging your knowledge and /or your ability but what works in Fallon might not necessarily work in the City of Bayonne and vice versa.

    I also would like to reiterate my congrats for your ISO Class 1 rating and if you are going to call me sweetheart, I am going to have to expect flowers along with it. Be safe.

    ------------------
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry, bfdt2@fitzhenry.com
    Firefighter, Truck Co. 2
    City of Bayonne (NJ) FD
    www.bayonnenj.org/fire/

    [This message has been edited by FitzBFDT2 (edited 12-18-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by FitzBFDT2 (edited 12-18-2000).]

  10. #10
    CAP182
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    WHAT DOSE IT MATTER?

    ON A STANDARD STRUCTURE OF A HOME OF 2000 SQ FEET WITH A BEDROOM ON FIRE { 300 SQ FEET }
    ALL YOU SHOULD NEED IS ONE 1 3/4 LINE WITH A ADJUSTABLE FOG TIP THAT WILL FLOW UP TO 200 GPM AND SET AT 95 GPM AND ABOUT 150 GALLONS OF WATER WITH CLASS A FOAM INJECTION SYSTEM AND ABOUT 3 MIN OF FIREFIGHTING.

    SO WHAT IS THE NEED OF A STRAIGHT BORE? ARE YOU TRYING TO BLOW A WHOLE IN THE EXTERIOR WALL WITH YOUR 1/2" OR 5/8" TIP AND THEN FLOAT THE CONTAINTS OF THE HOME OUT TO CUT BACK ON SALVAGE TIME? OR WAS THERE NOT ENOUGH DAMMAGE BY THE FIRE SO WE WILL ADD $50,000 IN WATER DAMMAGE AND HOPE THE HOMEOWNER HAS FLOOD INSURANCE.

    COME ON STRAIGHT BORE IS GREAT FOR DEFFINSIVE ATTACK WHEN SOMTHING IS ALREADY A TOTAL LOSS. BUT IF YOU ARE IN THE BUISSNESS OF PROTECTING PROPERTY THEN A POWER CONE IS THE WAY TO GO. JUST THINK ABOUT IT STEAM DOSE ALOT LESS WATER DAMMAGE, AND THE LAST TIME I CHECKED SMOOTH BORE WAS TO DELIVER A LARGE AMOUNT OF WATER NOW !!

  11. #11
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Another case of fuzzy math, you aren't a Democrat are you?

    Right from Akron Brass: 7/8 at 50 lb tip flows 161 GPM with 60 lb reaction force.

    150 GPM Fog at 100 PSI nozzle pressure flowing 150 gpm has 76 lbs reaction force.

    The formulas are as follows:
    Smooth-bore
    RF=1.57 x (BD x BD) x NP

    BD=Bore diameter in inches, NP nozzle pressure

    Fog RF=GPM x Square of NP x .0505

    The info is found on pg 225 of the fire stream management handbook

    EITHER TYPE NOZZLE CAN BE EQUAL, DEPENDS WHAT YOU SELECTED. a FIREFIGHTER WITH A 1 INCH HOSE AT 220 GPM IS HAVING AN EASIER GO OF IT THAN A 1 3/4" OR 2 1/2" LINE AT THE SAME FLOW.

    You really need to compare apples with apples. A booster line is easier to move than a 2.5" but that doesn't mean I would use it in place of the 2.5". I'd also like to see the pressure needed to achieve that 220 GPM (from a distance) The pressure needed to get a booster to flow 220 is very dangerous and shouldn't be used.

    It's no secret that you are a big fan of TFT. but it has been my experience that when a department does actual flow tests and side by side comparisons with TFT and other manufacturers, the other manufacturers win over TFT.

    Dave get a nozzle rep to come out with a flow meter. Try your nozzles out, compare them with other brands, try them at the drill tower and make your own mind up. Just make sure you compare apples with apples.

    The more fires you go to the more you will see the advantages of the smooth bore.

    Oh by the way Larry, why don't you try using the spell check. It would make your posts easier to read and give you more credibility.

  12. #12
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Use what your department has purchased.

    Learn its capabilities and try to maximize them.

    Realize that everyone has an opinion about this topic and that's great. But their opinion may be useless to you and your situation. Listen and learn, but do what you know works for you, through testing, training and experience.

    If you are dissatisfied with your current fire attack and nozzles, lobby for change by trying to have factual processes for determining what would be better.

    Larry...what is your problem with the FDNY? And for that matter tradition? You seem to use them both as if they were dirty words.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp


  13. #13
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //175 gpm at 40 or 50 psi at the tip?

    Akron. elkhart, kk, tft.

    //All I am saying is that it depends on the stream reaching the desired surface in the pattern it left the nozzle in.

    So the biggest room in a 1500 sq foot house is what 100 feet across??? 50" 25 feet. Do you thing a 100 psi nozzle will break up at that range and a 50 psi nozzle will not? Neither is going to have any trouble hitting the wall.

    //Your are right in saying that the human is the weak link, but do not assume that it is because of weak training programs.

    What else should be assumed? The book says 100 psi plus Fl equals EP and we only get 125 gpm? Not the nozzle, hose, or pumps fault.

    //what happened was rust from the tank and sediment from a hydrant at a previous fire 4 hours earlier that settled in the tank,//

    And that rig was in service???

    //Another case of fuzzy math, you aren't a Democrat are you?
    Right from Akron Brass: 7/8 at 50 lb tip flows 161 GPM with 60 lb reaction force.

    OK YOU MUST BE THE DEMOCRAT LETS COMPARE APPLES AND ROCKET SHIPS... DO THEM THE SAME NOZZLE PRESSURE.


    138 GPM Fog at 100 PSI 49 pounds reaction

    13/16THS AT 50 PSI FLOWING 138 GPM 49 LBS

    WHAT THE HECK WAS YOU POINT??? OH YEAH PUMP ONE 100% HIGHER THAN THE OTHER AND MAKE A COMPARISON.

    OK

    1 inch tip at 100 psi 297 GPM 150 LBS REACTION

    297 FOG AT 50 PSI EQUALS 107 LBS REACTION

    WHEN THE SAME NP IS USED THEY ARE THE SAME...WANT TO SEE THE MATH????????


    flowing 150 gpm has 76 lbs reaction force.

    54 LBS REACTION AT 50 PSI ON A FOG TIP AND A SMOOTH BORE AT 150 EQUALS

    EITHER TYPE NOZZLE CAN BE EQUAL, DEPENDS WHAT YOU SELECTED. a FIREFIGHTER WITH A 1 INCH HOSE AT 220 GPM IS HAVING AN EASIER GO OF IT THAN A 1 3/4" OR 2 1/2" LINE AT THE SAME FLOW.

    ///You really need to compare apples with apples. A booster line is easier to move than a 2.5" but that doesn't mean I would use it in place of the 2.5". I'd also like to see the pressure needed to achieve that 220 GPM (from a distance) The pressure needed to get a booster to flow 220 is very dangerous and shouldn't be used.

    GEE I'LL HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT, CHICAGO USED 800 AND 1200 PSI FOR DECADES, WE'VE USED IT THE LAST 6 YEARS ON EVERY SINGLE FIRE,

    //It's no secret that you are a big fan of TFT.

    I SEE, YOU BRING UP TFT AND SAY I'M A TFT FAN, I SAID COMBINATION AND sb TIPS YOU BRING TRADE NAMES UP. DEMOCRAT

    OH I SEE, AND THAT IS BASED UPON THE FACT I SPEC'D SEVERAL HUNDRED NOZZLES ON FIRE TRUCKS IN THE LAST MONTH. HOW MANY WERE TFT'S?

    WHY ARE PRECONNECT NOZZLES MADE BY IOWA AMERICAN AND ALL OUR PORTABLE GUNS AKRON'S? WHY ARE ALL ARE FIXED GUNS ELKHARTS?

    ///but it has been my experience that when a department does actual flow tests and side by side comparisons with TFT and other manufacturers, the other manufacturers win over TFT. //

    PROBABLY YOUR FUZZY MATH, LETS SEE LETS PUMP 50 TO THAT LINE AND 100 TO THAT LINE , NOW THAT LINE NEEDS 100 PSI NOZZLE PRESSURE AND THAT ONE DOESN'T, dang that one flows more, golly, so does an open but, dang the shorter lines flows more too.

    ///Just make sure you compare apples with apples.

    JUST LIKE YOU DID WITH REACTION THOSE AT 100 THOSE AT 50 AND THOSE AT 75 SOP IT IS FAIR.

    //The more fires you go to the more you will see the advantages of the smooth bore.

    SO THE MORE FIRES YOU GO TO AND ATTACK FROM THE EXTERIOR THE MORE NOZZLES WITH SB TIPS YOU'LL NEED.

    //WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH And for that matter tradition?


    NONE AT ALL IT LOOKS GREAT IN A MUSEUM.

    amen TO DON'T CHANGE YOUR NOZZLES. that IS JUST A MANUFACTURER THING TO MAKE YOU FEEL BAD ABOUT YOUR NOZZLES. WHAT YOU HAVE WILL WORK JUST FINE.




  14. #14
    FitzBFDT2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Like I said, I said my peace. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year from the Right Coast.

    ------------------
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry, bfdt2@fitzhenry.com
    Firefighter, Truck Co. 2
    City of Bayonne (NJ) FD
    www.bayonnenj.org/fire/

  15. #15
    chiefjay4
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Where are you Paul?

  16. #16
    Staylow
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I was very surprised to see the reactions about this question. The use of a particular type of nozzle has nothing to do with tradition or "leather helmets". We don't use solid tips for tradition's sake. We have used and applied more types and makes of nozzles than you could imagine. Don't confuse experience for tradition. The fact is, the solid tip work better. And yes, gpm's put out fire. But don't forget to look at how those gpm's are delivered.

    The solid bore tip puts larger droplets of water on the seat of the fire than does the smooth bore. The nozzles may put out the same gpm's, but the delivery is different. And it is these larger droplets of water that will , more efficiently, get to the seat of the fire.

    In large urban areas where the 150 year old buildings are stacked on each other you can not come up short. A room and contents that a smooth bore tip could handle can just as easily turn into a fifth alarm. This is why we like to use the solid tips on our attack lines. They give more bang for their buck in aggressive interior attacks.

    Stay Safe!

  17. #17
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Wow, where can I buy a 13/16 tip or a 138 GPM nozzle. Why do you use examples not found in the real world?

    I'd like to see your math on the fog, because the chart from AKRON states that a 125 GPM nozzle (lower GPM) at 100 PSI will give you a reaction force of 63 lbs. So how do you raise the GPM, maintain the pressure, and reduce the reaction force?

    I'll Do the math for you.
    Combination nozzle:
    RF= GPM x Square of NP x .0505
    RF= 138 x 10 x .0505
    RF= 69.69 lbs

    BIG difference between 69 lbs and 49 lbs.

    The Chicago high pressure rigs were an experiment back in the late 50's. They are long gone (1963), and were never city wide. Only a few high pressure wagons ever existed (13). They were used to get a quick knock on the fire, or to hold the fire in check prior to more conventional fire units arriving and leading out. The high pressure hard line could be deployed much faster than regular cotton hose. They pumped around 75 gpm at 800 psi

    Staylow, very well said.

    [This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited 12-19-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited 12-19-2000).]

  18. #18
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //The use of a particular type of nozzle has nothing to do with tradition or "leather helmets". We don't use solid tips for tradition's sake.//

    Sure it does in your case! Kinda like the red paint, brass nozzles cuse you’ve always used brass nozzles, 3 inch couplings on your hose because you’ve always used them. 3 inch hose with 3 inch couplings cuse you’ve always used the, 95 fog tips and 1 ¼” SB because they were there when you got there, 5 inch hose on hose wagons not on pumpers, wood ladders cuse that was there when you got there, leather straps cuse you make them, You know ladders on ladder trucks instead of on the first in unit the engine(I guess the jumper will wait…so much for have the tools you need in hand it will eventually get there), leather helmets cuse you’ve always had them, brass coupling on 5 inch hose, brass spanners cuse you make them, you have pumps on your apparatus even tough you have 300 psi hydrants, ¾ inch yes three quarter inch SB tips on deck guns cuse yo’ve always used them, brass hydrant reducing valves cuse you’ve always used brass, 3 inch connections no one can hook to that has already cost 5000 homes in one fire because you’ve always done it that way..

    If it isn’t tradition then let’s compare facts. The architecture in SF is the Same as Boston. So are many of the hills. If as everyone is saying there is only one way to do this job and apparently overkill is the norm….which one of you is doing the job right? They use 4 inch supply hose you use 3 inch. They use alloy ladders you use wood. They use 750- tanks you’ve got 500’s. They use 2” and 2 ½” lines you have 3 inch. They use 2 ½” couplings you use 3 inch.

    Dallas uses 5 inch and Houston 4 inch, Philly 3 ½”…why doesn’t one of them burn down? Cuse maybe it really doesn’t matter?

    Now if you use 1 ¼” SB as does Chicago. That must mean FDNY is all wrong, they only use a 1 1/8” tip. If gallons fight fire and they have according to you the right nozzle are they really 78 gpm better at fighting fire than you? Why are their fires going out at such low rates of flow and you’re scared to death of small droplets at the same flow you flow with a combo tip that generation of SF firefighters had success with before you?

    Now it a 1 1/8” tip is ok and 78 gpm is OK why can’t we just use 1 ¾” inch hose. I can get 245 gpm every day, at least as good as FDNY with less guys??? Now if I chose to use a combo nozzle do I need what an extra 500 gpm on a 250 gpm fire to make sure those little drops don’t confuse the fire…or a bit more or less than that???

    Is it FDNY is better, do fires burn differently on the left coast, is it a UFO thing? Or just a bunch of non-sense???? How do those 98 FD’s around SF put out their fires if fogs don’t work well?

    // We have used and applied more types and makes of nozzles than you could imagine.//

    Hardly. Name 6 that you’ve used more than 6 years. Hmmm, 95 fog and 1 1.4” SB. I’m sure I have more makes and styles in service in my FD than yours. Houston kicks yor tail and Las Vegas beats all of you combined.

    // Don't confuse experience for tradition.

    Many of them were bad experiences. If not please explain 3 inch couplings on 2 ¾” hose when the entire state of CA except one other town uses 2 ½”??? Another bad experience has been many of the best ideas ever offered the fire service were offered to SF first. Those were 20 to 30 years ago, 20 years later you’re now adopting a few. Experience resulted in ladder trucks lasting in service less than one month.

    ///The fact is, the solid tip work better.

    Better than what? How much faster how much better. You have more fighters per square mile than any other FD on earth, kinda explains the 3 inch hose, what lessons should we draw from that???? How much more water do I need to be equal? Will a red tuck put out a fire better than a green one? Or a leather helmet fight fire better than a plastic one? Got any data????

    //The solid bore tip puts larger droplets of water on the seat of the fire than does the smooth bore.//

    Oh really, you’ve always got a straight shot at the fire? If you bounce the stream you’re in the same boat as the combo tip with the same flow, and np,

    Let’s not forget the fact the fog/combo nozzle users have the SB users out numbered by well over 9000 to 1 according to one recent study. So for every SB user there is an equally large city or combination of cities that are putting their fires out with smaller drops. A house is a house, wood is wood, water is water… nothing new.

    // The nozzles may put out the same gpm's, but the delivery is different.

    Ok how much different? 1 second better, $35 dollars better per fire? What? A combo tip is SS versus a SB what percentage difference is there? Oh that’s right, FDNY uses SBs. They used fogs with 1 3/4” hose during the real fire years. So guess what? All the fires went out or they would have changed sooner.

    //And it is these larger droplets of water that will , more efficiently, get to the seat of the fire.

    If you’ve gota straight shot at it. If you’ve got the right NP, if if if… How much more efficiently? Lloyd Layman already solved the efficiency question professionally. Fog always won Same with the Iowa Tests.

    //In large urban areas where the 150 year old buildings are stacked on each other you can not come up short.

    Sure you can, it happens all the time.

    //A room and contents that a smooth bore tip could handle can just as easily turn into a fifth alarm.//

    Yeah right. Compare equal gallons here. So explain all the multi-alarm fires in SB user departments? Why hasn’t LA or LA County burned down, and Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio and Philly, and Miami, etc????? Those fog nozzles are causing all the big fires due to the small droplets? Nope their fires go out. Over kill is the word today.

    // This is why we like to use the solid tips on our attack lines.

    No it isn’t, they are there because they were there before you ever joined the FD, the decisions were long before you.

    ///They give more bang for their buck in aggressive interior attacks.

    Oh really, there is more data supporting CAFS than 3 inch hose and smooth bores on structure fires. In fact CAFS wins by 5. Gee, why does my FD use CAFS and Phoenix too? Oh that’s right we reviewed the literature and tests.

    As far as bang for the buck, brass costs less than alloy, 3 inch costs less than 2 inch. It takes less guys to move a 3 inch line. 3 inch discharges, valves and hydrant discharges cost less. I see. Fuzzy math again. What about all the fires that were fought for years with fog nozzles back when you were fighting 300% more fires? Just luck? Those guys were stupid back then? SB’s didn’t exist? Nope those guys removed the SBs from the engines and chose to use combo tips. Boston guys bought their own 2 inch hose and nozzles out of their own pockets. That is commitment.

    Oh if it is cost and hydraulic efficiency issue like you state. Please make the case for all of us uniformed. A 3 inch line with 3 inch couplings is used over 3 inch hose with 2 ½” couplings that the entire rest of the US fire service uses because…?

    Oh make the case for 3 inch lines over 2 ½” or 2 inch lines that the entire rest of the free world uses because….?

    State the facts the whys and the why nots so we too can be well informed.

    // Wow, where can I buy a 13/16 tip nozzle.

    Gee, I’m sorry I thought you’d said earlier you’d been in the fire service a few years. I’ll go slow. Akron Brass, Elkhart, Iowa American, TFT, KK, etc all make a 13/16” tip. It makes as much sense as using a 15/16” tip over a 1 inch doesn’t it over a ¾ or 7/8 tip maintains 50 psi at the required flow too! Or does fire only go out in round numbers in ¼” or 1/8 increments or 25 or 50 gpm groupings?

    // Wow, where can I buy a 138 GPM nozzle.

    Well that Vindicator you are in love with but never fought a real fire with will do it. “It's no secret that you are a big fan of Vindicator.” Oh did you read Houston FD’s union paper about Vindicators???????? That piercing nozzle you talked about will do it, too.

    But how about some more mainstream nozzles. All the Elkhart, Akron and TFT automatic nozzles do it. Akron Turbo jet, Elkhart Select-o-flow, all the KK’s and many selectable flow combination nozzles and many others do it. All of this is in the IFSTA Essentials Manual, very very basic stuff chief.

    Heck with all these fancy formulas you’re throwing around I shouldn’t have to tell you how to do it should I?

    Ok, I will, Take a nozzle put it in the 200 setting(the most common flow setting on the entire generation of nozzles built the last 35 years) Pump for 50 psi NP and wala you’ve got 138 gpm. Oh, a fixed flow 200 gpm at 100 psi np will do the same thing.

    ///Why do you use examples not found in the real world?

    I’m sorry would you like me to use nozzle the fire service doesn’t use? The above listing cover 99.99999999% of all nozzles in the fire service.

    ///I'd like to see your math on the fog, because the chart from AKRON states that a 125 GPM nozzle (lower GPM) at 100 PSI will give you a reaction force of 63 lbs.

    Yes it will! But I simply asked for an apples to apples comparison. You know same NP for both nozzles, same flows, etc, after all it is only fair isn’t it, you suggest throwing every nozzle away and buying your cherished Vindicators or SB’s.

    ///So how do you raise the GPM, maintain the pressure, and reduce the reaction force?

    Gee, bigger hole, lower np, results in same reaction, same flow, same reach and same psi np. Quite simple, you know this has been in the books since the 1800’s.

    //I'll Do the math for you.

    No you won’t I’ll do it for you!!!!!!!!!

    Combination nozzle:
    RF= GPM x Square of NP x .0505
    RF= 138 x 7.07 x .0505
    RF= 49.270832708327083270832708327 083270832708327083270832708327 083270832708327083270832708327 083270832708327083270832708327 083270832708327083270832708327 083 lbs

    Just exactly what I wrote to the nearest 176 decimal point.

    //BIG difference between 69 lbs and 49 lbs.

    Yeah the difference was your fuzzy math. Now I’ve straightened you out what was the point you were making oh yeah, that smooth bores have less reaction at the same flows….NOPE exactly the same reaction at the same flow and nozzle pressures. Certainly the well educated fire service isn’t buying nozzles and then making silly apple to oranges comparisons are they??? You just did AGAIN>>>>>

    ///The Chicago high pressure rigs were an experiment back in the late 50's.

    Oh, I see, why did they buy them in the 1940’s? Why did they retire them in the early 70’s? My source is the Chicago FD Annual report 1974. At some point when does the experiment become an operational practice?? 10 years ? 20 years? 30 years? If 20 years is an experiment then the Jaws of life, 1 ¾” inch hose, LDH, imagers, NFPA gear, foam, etc are all experiments. Why do all the pump makers still offer and sell high pressure systems? Oh that is right the customer is still buying them.

    ///They are long gone (1963), and were never city wide.

    Nope just where the fires were.

    /////////////// Only a few high pressure wagons ever existed (13). In Chicago, 1000’s else where, all the pump makers make them today. FT Worth runs them on all their new rigs. FDNY has them in use for 50 years on certain companies.

    You think if the hp was on the engines instead of special units they wouldn’t of had to wait for conventional rigs? Didn’t a big city guy just say they did things based on experience? Oh, this must have been a bad experience.

    I’m sorry hp scares you. Know what? The Jaws operate at 5000 to 10,500 psi.

    ///They were used to get a quick knock on the fire, or to hold the fire in check prior to more conventional fire units arriving and leading out.

    Yeah we wouldn’t want to get a fire knocked down quick today. That would mean we’re copying the Australian and New Zealand fire services using American pumps, hose and nozzles and fire attack ideas of the 40’s and getting it right today.

    //The high pressure hard line could be deployed much faster than regular cotton hose.

    Can you imagine how fast our lightweight lines deploy??? All of LA county’s rig have soft hose charged on reels for speed.

    // They pumped around 75 gpm at 800 psi

    Nope, the nozzle was a 20 to 30 gpm at 300 psi tip. The pump was rated at 75 gpm for two reels.

    The Aussies use 75 gpm. Their fires go out. Fort Worth uses 100 gpm high pressure pumps

    We blow 220 gpm, do we still have to wait for more conventional companies to lead out or can we go home when it is out????????????????/ I wouldn’t want to go against tradition and experience.

    I thought the fire service would be about quick knockdown with small high flow lines that make use of the real world staffing we face and we’d cheat with all the chemicals possible. That hasn’t been our legacy. Grandpa had it right, high pressure mall lines but the nozzle just needed to flow more,

  19. #19
    E229Lt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Take a breath...

    Put your thumb over the end of a garden hose and squeeze out some water. It may go far but it won't do much. You also have to get your thumb out of wherever you've got it.

    BTW, my solid bores look great next to my leather helmet and people KNOW I'm an FDNY firefighter.

    It must be nice to live in a perfect world, but all your #s and book tactics will only work in a perfect world. You assume all venting is done perfectly. All hydrants are free of debris and every booster tank is in perfect condition. Each firefighter opens and closes the knob at the perfect time in conjunction with the cross vent. You can't comment on being under a rollover because in your perfect world they don't happen. You've never had to knock down ceilings with the stream because your world has the perfect truckie, always there the moment you need a ceiling pulled. You've never had to throw water across a 100' room because your world is 10x10.

    You can read all the books you want and pound the calculator keys. I don't have time for that here. I use what works because it works...Period


  20. #20
    FitzBFDT2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Nice post Lou. But I am sure a post will follow that will pick apart your previous post and give you an answer for everything.

    Merry Christmas to you and the brothers in the Borough of Fire from the Brothers in Bayonne just across the harbor.

    ------------------
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry, bfdt2@fitzhenry.com
    Firefighter, Truck Co. 2
    City of Bayonne (NJ) FD
    www.bayonnenj.org/fire/

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