When it comes to ventilation, which technique does your dept use? we prefer ppv rather that vertical, depending on where the fire is located of course. we start it just as the attack crew enters, does wonders for visibilty and less damaging to the structure in my opinion. what do you guys think? (im speaking of residential structures of course).
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Thread: Positive Pressure Ventilation
04-08-2001, 02:36 AM #1Stone Cold FirefighterFirehouse.com Guest
Positive Pressure Ventilation
04-08-2001, 10:03 AM #2Lt.ToddFirehouse.com Guest
We use PPV on 95% of our fires. Works great and is alot safer then putting a crew on the roof. However, there our times and places for vertical ventilation as well. Nothing works 100% of the time and it always wise to keep all options open.
SERVE WITH PRIDE
04-08-2001, 10:23 AM #3Brian DunlapFirehouse.com Guest
We too perfer the PPV when it comes down to it. We start the process just as the Attack Crew enters also. Always seems to clear a place out pretty well.
04-08-2001, 06:21 PM #4LooperFirehouse.com Guest
We use PPV on alomst every structure fire, some times in conjunction with vertical ventilation. We also have used PPV on commercial buildings of up to 500,000 sq ft.
[This message has been edited by Looper (edited 04-08-2001).]
04-12-2001, 01:24 AM #5BFD847Firehouse.com Guest
We use PPV on almost all of our fires also. It depends on what we see when we firt get there and man power when we actually start the fan. When our attack crew is in place we take a window out near where we think the fire is at. If the fire is going pretty good and we have any visibility we will try to get some water on it before we start.
04-12-2001, 12:52 PM #6LadderCappFirehouse.com Guest
Positive Press. on 95% of our fires. But make sure if you are just going to PPV, that all of your personnel from Chief on down understand that you can cut off a crew, or double the size of the fire in a very short time if you don't really know how to use ppv.
Make sure you have a company in, and with at least a reasonable feel for where the seat of the fire is at before you charge.
04-13-2001, 12:36 AM #7jmichaelFirehouse.com Guest
some of the replies are positive pressure attack mode. We use the ventilation for room and contents after the first in reports what is burning. Standard horizontal ventilation practices will improve the interior conditions greatly enabling the search team to perform and the seat of the fire to be found. For fires that are into the structure we use vertical if roof operations can be done safely. No one thing is good nor appropriate in each fire. Best thing is training and what can be successfully done with the manpower on the scene.
04-14-2001, 11:42 AM #8alaskafiremanFirehouse.com Guest
We do PPV 99.9% of the time....It seems to really work for us and we find it alot safer and easier then getting on the roof.
Captain, Seward Fire
04-19-2001, 05:38 PM #9GBordasFirehouse.com Guest
In NYC the primary means of ventilation is vertical and/or horizontal even for residential houses. Do not use a fan/positive pressure as a means to vent a building. Unless a thorough size-up has been done, (which most times isn't done until after the first line has been stretched and put into operation)you can't determine the location of all the fire, so by setting up a fan you may infact feed the fire or push smoke and hot gases to unburned sections of a building.
Heat and smoke are going to rise to the highest point so venting from the roof or removing a window is the best way to remove smoke and excess heat out of a building. Another technique to do after the fire has been knocked down is to use your hose stream to hydro-vent. It is simple and clears smoke from a room fast.
I understand the principles behind "positive pressure ventilation" and it may work in training, but during firefighting operations, setting up a fan properly is too time consuming and should not take the place of proper ventilation such as removal of windows or cutting the roof.
[This message has been edited by GBordas (edited 04-20-2001).]
04-21-2001, 08:42 PM #10HallwaySledgeFirehouse.com Guest
My department's primary method of ventilation is Vent-Enter-Search/Attack by the first-due company followed by vertical ventilation upon the arrival of the tower ladder. PPV is only used after the fire has been extinguished and initial overhaul has begun to locate any hidden fires. We use it primarily to clear the atmosphere as opposed to true "ventilation". By and large the opinion in my neck of the woods is that PPV leaves too large a margin of error, especially with staffing levels what they are.
The opinions expressed herein are my own and do not reflect those of my Department or it's Administration.
05-04-2001, 12:06 AM #11TC1875PVFDFirehouse.com Guest
PPV is the way we go most of the time. Visability is a big factor.
05-04-2001, 09:04 PM #12FEOBobFirehouse.com Guest
We use PPV often, but not exclusively.
It has been my department's experience that nothing gets lots of heat and smoke out of a building as effectively as traditional ventilation methods, especially vertical venting. We will often supplement our "natural" venting with a PPV fan.
The times we don't at least assess traditional venting techniques have been real nasty fires.
IMOHP we don't send crews to the roof often or fast enough and have seen some close calls because of it.
I can see the FDNY not using it, at least as much. There's got to be massive hidden spaces and openings to other buildings in those old row houses and taxpayers. I work in one of the oldest cities in WA and in one of the oldest districts in our city. We run into a lot of "old" buildings, maybe 60-80 years old. Once in a while even a hundred!
I bet that's an average to newish age for a lot of the buildings HallwaySledge goes into.
05-13-2001, 02:40 PM #13ENG92INEFirehouse.com Guest
I agree with GBordas ... opening up a roof or a window is cheaper than you think in the long run when you are concerned with life safety and control of the fire.
05-13-2001, 08:45 PM #14FireLt1951Firehouse.com Guest
I also agree with GBordas. We use PPV here on occassion and it is sometimes an excellent tool. But it does not replace good solid ventilation techniques, such as opening windows and venting roofs.
PPV must be choosen wisely when used. Its best use is after knockdown.
05-13-2001, 10:37 PM #1551Truck_KFirehouse.com Guest
FDNY also utilizes V-E-S, alot, and PPV is a big NO-NO with such techniques. However, NY is experimenting with PPV in high rise gigs, as far acharging the stairwells with clean air...needs alot of fine tuning! We don't want to make our own blowtorch hallways, MOther Nature f**ks with us enough!
05-21-2001, 03:09 PM #16ChiefkeoFirehouse.com Guest
We've been using PPV for almost seven years now. I'm still perplexed by those who say that it is only good for after knovk down. We use it right along with the attack team if we know the location of the fire. The worries about intensifing the fire seem for us to be offset by a more rapid advance into the building and the removal of the heat and smoke from the structure. I can't recall anytime where we had the PPV extend damage. It has often showed hotspots to us quicker so that in the long run damage was reduced. Maybe the day is coming when we will see one of these examples that everyone seems tto worry about, but in seven years it ahsn't. Without the availability of aerials I would have to say that we can set for attack and PPV much quicker than we can roof vent. Often our interior guys bring the fans up as the driver and passenger are gettin lines laid out. Passenger takes over operation of the fans as the interior guys ready for entry. Seems to work well for our volunteer force but I enjoy reading all the input here. Keeps us on our toes for possible pitfalls. Just for the record we continue to train and practice for roof venting. I know of some departments around here that think if they add PPV they can forget all that. Those of you who have already said we must keep both tools ready..AMEN!
I shall fear no evil, for I am a Firefighter
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