1. #1
    TriTownship600
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    Question Rural Water Supply

    I know this topic has been here before but, I can't find it.

    How does your department supply water to a rural fire scene?

    Tankers dump to portable tanks?
    If so do you place one pumper at the tank or use a portable pump?

    Tankers nurse feed the pumper?

    How much flow before setting up a second dump site or second tank?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    S. Cheatham
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    TriTown,
    We are a rural/hydranted department but over 7/8 of our area is rural. As soon as we recieve a fire in a non-hydranted area, we call for at least two other tankers besides ours and one other pumper from mutual aid. We respond a 1000/1000 pumper to the fire structure, a 750/750 pumper to the dump site and a 1250/2000 tanker.

    If the fire pumper has room for the dump tank beside it, the dump pumper will go to the draft site and set up ops then. The tanker will pull in and drop the dump tank, jet siphon, other draft accessories and dump its water and go the the draft site to refill. The mutual aid pumper will go to the fire and drop off its crew and tools. Then it will go to the draft site. The Mutual aid tankers will go drop their water and dump tanks at the fire pumper and go refill.

    If the fire pumper has to lay hose in, the 750/750 pumper will set up a dump site. Everything would then be run the same as above but the mutual aid pumper would pump the draft site.

    This works except the only thing we don't like is having our 750 gpm pumper as the dupm site pumper because it turns our 1000 gpm pumper at the fire structure into a 750 gpm pumper. This has not been a problem yet, but if we get a large structure it might.

  3. #3
    Nate Marshall
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    This is a question best left for Larry Stevens the expert on rural water supply. If you do exactly what larry tells you you will lower your ISO several classes.

  4. #4
    TriTownship600
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    Thumbs down

    Originally posted by Nate Marshall:
    This is a question best left for Larry Stevens the expert on rural water supply. If you do exactly what larry tells you you will lower your ISO several classes.
    Gee Thanks Nate, you are so very helpful.

    I remember what Larry posted at the last one. They drop dual 5 inch and use a siphon device. We don't have any 5 inch or a siphon. Sounds like a good way but, I was looking for more ideas.


  5. #5
    ADSN/WFLD
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    We have utilized both drop tanks and a nursing tanker. For us it all depends on what arrives and how fast. Generally I've seen the nursing operation set up faster, but the nursing tanker that is available to us is rather large, 8,000 gallon semi.

    The vast majority of our non hydranted areas have houses only, some rather large 4000 + sqft but houses . Anyway we have used multiple sites in the past, but no rules on when we make the switch to multiple sites.

    The most important thing is to practice with your neighbors and make sure everyone has compatable fittings. for the sake of speed we switched to 6" cam lock fittings for our nursing operations. But everyone around us has them!

    Hope that helps.

  6. #6
    d308
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    We use tankers with drop tanks. We do not use nurse tankers because it slows the whole operation. If you hook your fire pumper to the tanks you will not need a pumper drafting then pumping to the other pumper, this is due to a 1250 pumper is rated to do so from draft. You will need to be able to fill your tankers at increadable speeds (ie, 2000+ gpm) and dump in the least time possible. I hope this helps tanker shuttles are a very complicated thing and take lots of practice to preform them correctly and safley.

    Hope the info helps

  7. #7
    Engine69
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    Our operations in this area utilize dump tanks. Normally, we will set two dump tanks with a siphon between them. For larger water demands, we will add a third tank and another siphon. These are filled by tankers that normally range from 1500 gallons to 2500 gallons (tanker size is limited primarily by bridge capacity in this area).

    As for fill sites, we have several dry hydrants throughout the county that we prefer to operate from. You also want to be sure to assign a pumper at the fill site that can at least supply a flow rate needed at the scene (don't forget to figure GPM plus turn-a-round time to switch tankers being filled). We also have a few hydro-vac tankers in the county that work independent of the fill pumper. These fit in quite well since we can have two separate fill sites in operation without over taxing our resources.

    With this system, he have been able to supply master stream operations without interruption. A few departments have also lowered their ISO ratings through water movement capabilities (and they did it without any "ISO Expert" to stand in his pulpit and pound his chest).


  8. #8
    Fire/Rescue43
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    Our departments primary coverage area is 36 square miles, the area consist of several towns and lots of housing developments consisting of mainly single family dwellings on one acre lots. There is no hydrant system even in the largest of the towns so water movement is always a concern for us.

    I'll try to answer your questions in order

    Tankers dump to portable tanks?

    That is the way 80% of our structure/dwelling fires are handled. Our first out engine has a 1,250 gallon tank and carries its own 2,500 gallon dump tank. We have a 2,500 gallon tanker it carries a 3,000 gallon dump tank.

    If so do you place one pumper at the tank or use a portable pump?

    We place a engine at the dump tank, most of the time the first in engine will back into the driveway and we will place the dump tank on the roadway, the engine will draft out of the dump tank with the front suction. Long driveways are handled by running 5" LDH up the drive way with a manifold on the end.

    Tankers nurse feed the pumper?

    We do nurse operations depending on the type/size of fire. Nurse operations are common on vehicle fires, brush fires, very small structure/dwelling fires. We also will nurse while setting up the dump tank to keep the first in engine supplied while things are getting hooked up.

    How much flow before setting up a second dump site or second tank?

    Less than you may think. Lets say that your fire needs a flow of 500 g.p.m. Your first due engine has 1,000 gallons of water. You now have 2 minutes of flow. Your company tanker arrives with 2,500 gallons, dumps its water and heads to fill, you now have 5 minutes of water. The fill site is 2 miles away it takes 5 minutes to drive. The tanker takes 3 minutes to fill. The return trip takes 7 minutes due to a grade from the fill site to the dump site. You had 5 minutes of water, the round trip for the tanker 15 minutes that means for 10 minutes you are sitting empty waiting for water. Solution is add 3 more tankers. Do you need the second dump tank? It would not hurt since this way you can dump two trucks at once or have one dumping to an empty tank and one sitting waiting to dump.

    Increase the flow to 1,000 g.p.m. you maybe able to do it with 8 tankers but 10 would be better at this point you may need a third dump tank set up.

    What you want to happen is to have a water suplus that you can tap into in case a tanker breaks down, the engine at the fill site goes down, you have to set up a new fill site.

    Things that can hamper a tanker stuttle, poor tanker desing, distance and road conditoins, time of day and the weather.

    Poor tanker design, this is a big one, too many times I've seen appratus that had big capacity with a tiny engine. No direct fills, small dump valves, all can affect a shuttle.

    Distance and road conditions, the longer the distance from the fire to the fill site the more tankers you will need to keep up the flow. Road conditions also affect this, grades, especially from the fill site to the dump site can slow down a shuttle. Narrow, curvey roads, all can increase the number of tankers you will need.

    Finally time of day and weather conditions. Its easier to shuttle water at 3:00 AM on a Friday than at 3:00 PM the same day due to traffic conditons. The weather can also slow down a tanker shuttle, rain, snow, fog all work against you.

    If your area does not have one consider setting up a tanker task force, this way the IC only has to ask for a tanker task force knwing he will get a set amount of tankers for each goup he asks for.

    Other ways we move water, LDH our department carries 3,800 feet (1,300 on one engine, 2,500 on the second) If we have a suitable water source within 1/2 mile and need a high flow of water it gives us a viable option.

    If you ever get a change to take Larry Davis's class jump on the opertunity, it is well worth the effort. His book on rural water movement is also a great reference.

    I hope this helps

    Stay safe

  9. #9
    M1NFD
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    Cool

    I am from a rural town, with "minimal" hydrants. We have a large population on a barrier Island with mostly summer cottages with high exposures, and wind as an added bonus as well as a vast majority of balloon construction. We carry 4" hose on our trucks, and in the event laying a line to a drafting hole isnt feasable( we have 4 so it is rarely feasable) we will typicly run a line up the driveway from the attack pump to feed itself, and use our tanker, a 5600 gallon Mack with a 1000 gpm pump on it as the hydrant. In the event we are moving a lot of water the truck has 3 LDH inlets direct to the tank, plus a connection to hook into the tank directly with the 6" flexible suction on any of the pumpers we might be using(our own or mututal aid)to draft directly out of the tank. When we get running tanker shuttle we attempt use 1000 and 2500 gallon tankers as shuttles. Anything bigger would take too long to fill and shuttle.

  10. #10
    Buck
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    "" A few departments have also lowered their ISO ratings through water movement capabilities (and they did it without any "ISO Expert" to stand in his pulpit and pound his chest)."" Quote by Engine69

    What is your ISO class away from the hydrants richard?

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    Talking

    Thanks for the input!

  12. #12
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    We generally hook up a nurse tanker to the pumper which stays in place and shuttle any other tankers to refill the nurse tanker. If the fire is large, and we plan on being there awhile we will also set up a drop tank. It seems that using tankers to refill the nurse tanker is not as efficient as using the drop tank, but it has worked well for us.

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    In my department we only have 2 fire hydrents we use tankers to bring our engine water. The department has 6 or 7 tankers and we can get mutual aide tankers too. When you fight fires in alaska you have lots of rural fires. Our tankers get filled at at 2 wells and the water supply at the university fire department.

    [ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: suzie ]

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    I was one of the feuding sides in the previous Rural Water Suppy discussion. A very friendly guy named LHS* was at the other end of the conversation that we had. There were some very good points made by both parties. You can find it at:Does Anyone Else Do This? Hopefully thing will give you somemore insight to what you are looking for.

    [ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: Inferno ]
    When In Doubt, Blitz it Out!

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    1. How does your department supply water to a rural fire scene?

    Used to just be a 4,000 gallon tanker, a 1,200 gallon tanker a 1,000 gallon brush tanker and a couple of 750 gallon engines. We could move 320gpm 5 miles with that set up.

    Now it's that plus a 3,000 gallon tanker and 3 2,000 gallon pumper/tankers.

    2. Tankers dump to portable tanks?

    Yes, if necessary. the tankers have 4,000 gallon dump tanks on them and the pumper/tankers have 3,000 gallons on them. But considering we're rolling over 10,000 gallons on the alarm, nursing may be all that's needed.

    3. If so do you place one pumper at the tank or use a portable pump?

    A pump at the tank. But we're going to experiment using a portable pump with a turbo draft. If it works, that will free up an apparatus to shuttle water and require less manpower at the draft site

    4. Tankers nurse feed the pumper?

    Sometimes

    5. How much flow before setting up a second dump site or second tank?

    Depends on how fast the shuttle is moving - travel distance/time and fill/dump times are all factors. If the shuttle operation is being held up by lack of tanks, set another tank or 2.

    Inferno, that linked page is a good exchange of information. I have it on good authority that Larry and Buck are 2 different people.
    www.gvfd.org

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    THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD SUGGESTIONS HERE, AS FAR AS HOW MANY TANKERS PER FILL SITE, GENERAL RULE OF THUMB WOULD BE 3-4 WHITHIN 2 MILES, 5-6 WITHIN 5 MILES FOR OPTIMUM FLOW. ALWAYS USE A CLASS A PUMPER CAPABLE FILLING TANKERS AT 1000GPM+ FOR THE BEST RESULTS, AS ALWAYS THE BEST WAY TO FIND OUT IS TO GET TOGETHER WITH YOUR M/A COMPANIES AND PRACTICE UNTIL YOU FIND WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU.
    Firefighter/NREMT-P/Public Safety Diver
    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

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    YOU REALLY NEED TO TALK WITH LARRY HES GOT THIS DOWN PAT HE REALLY HELPED US BY TELLING US TO BUY 10000 FT OF 5 INCH HOSE AND 5 TURBO DRAFTS TO OVER COME OUR WATER PROBLEMS MAY HAVE TO SPEND SOME $$ BUT ITS WORTH IT IN THE LONG RUN

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    Lots of good ideas here. My Town is mainly rural, 50 Sq.miles with hydrants in only one small area. We belong to a league which supports a Tanker Task Force. We try to train 4 times a year with the TF and have successfully shuttled over 1500 GPM over 3 miles for 2 hours. The TF brings with it tankers,(up to 25) pumpers for fill and dump sites, support vehicle and usually its own radio freq. so water supply doesn't clutter up the main operating channel.
    Experience dictates that fill site pumpers need to be 1250 minimum, remember these are only rated 1250 at 10 ft. lift, many times we are lifting water much more than that. We fill ONE TANKER AT A TIME at around 1000 GPM (most older tankers won't take more than that anyway) with 2nd tanker hooked up and ready. When 1 is full pump operator shuts him off and charges 2nd tanker at same time, never stopping flow. This keeps operation steady.
    Remember to set up dump site for easy access in and out so tankers can dump and go quickly, even if it means laying out LDH to get it away from the fireground.
    The best tankers are the side dumpers with dumps on both sides, no backing up, MUCH SAFER AT DUMPSITE.
    Larry Davis has some great ideas, but you have to constantly train together or things will fall apart in a hurry.
    Keep practicing and STAY SAFE, remember by the time you are into a shuttle operation you are PROBABLY just putting out a building fire, not saving lives. The insurance co. will replace the building but not the lives of our crew or any innocent civilians we may encounter during our shuttle. Tankers in a shuttle should abide by the POSTED SPEED LIMIT at all times, they are usually operating on unfamiliar roads outside there normal response area. Lets be careful out there.

    John C.
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    HJFD

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    We use different methods, depending on the situation. Sometimes, it'll be a series of dump tanks connected by siphons, sometimes direct from tankers, sometimes long lays of 5" from static water sources with dry hydrants. This is my basic answer...be ready with a few tricks up your sleeve, then pull out the best one for the job. Of course, the last method is always best if you need lots of water and it's feasible.

    But, this brings up one thing I don't entirely undestand about this discussion whenever it comes up...there always seems to be this implicit assumption that you're going to need thousands of gallons per minute on your fireground. How often (rural or otherwise) is this really true, and how critical is it that you get it quickly when it's needed? I don't dispute that thousands of gallons are often used on residential firegrounds...I just dispute the idea that thousands of gallons are always actually needed when they are used. Ever seen somebody attack a room & contents improperly and do more damage by filling the basement or first floor with water than the fire did in the first place?? I digress...

    I submit the following:

    1) If you know how to apply the water and you have proper truck/squad support, you should usually be able to knock down, extinguish and overhaul a common residential room & contents, multi-room, or even an entire floor's worth of fire load with an engine and a tanker of 3,000 gals or so. That's really it. I've seen/participated in doing this quite a few times.

    2) If you really need thousands of gallons per minute, then you probably have a total loss in front of you from the outset, and you have plenty of time to get that supply established without affecting the bottom line results. You're probably protecting exposures, surroundin'-n-drownin', or something like this. This doesn't necessarily apply in the case of large fire-load structures (warehouses, factories, etc.), wildfires, and the like. I acknowledge that up front. See my comment on "special situations" below.

    I'm not advocating the idea that you never prepare for such a need, but it makes sense to look around you and ask yourself realistically what your typical scenario is going to be. Plan that as the default, and plan those special situations (warehouses, etc.) as just that...special situations with special supply needs. If you've got even minimal levels of mutual aid and specialized dispatching capability, you can pull off the big jobs without deploying a god-awful amount of equipment on the smaller ones or spending a ton of money on a fleet of pumper-squad-tanker-rescue-aerials that you'll rarely (never?) fully-utilize in your lifetime.

    Just my pair of pennies...for what they're worth.

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    Bob Snyder,

    I Have to agree whith you we have a 3000galon tanker and seldom use more than that and the engine unless it is really blowing when we get there, if thats the case you have as long as you want to put the water on it becouse its in the basement before we can get enough water there.

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    Currently I am the Asst. Chief of a rural department and the Training Officer for the neighboring rural department. Between the 2 I cover approx. 210 square miles out of 5 stations. WE DON'T HAVE A SINGLE HYDRANT. There are a few general thoughts on rural water supplies that you may want to consider.
    1) If you are hauling water with a tanker shuttle, keep in mind that no water is moving if the wheels aren't turning.
    2) If you carry the port-a-tank or fold-a-tank on the tanker it can't be set up until the tanker arrives. By carrying it on the engine, it can be set up and ready when the tanker backs in.
    3) Set up your tankers with the biggest possible dump. We use 10" and 12" round butterfly dumps for the fastest dump possible. Again, remember the "if the wheels aren't turning" theory.
    4) Don't be afraid to call for Mutual aid tankers early. Most of us like to get the call and we can always go home if not needed.
    And 5) Set up your fold-a-tank at the engine with the frame of the tank in line with the eye of the pump. When time allows, set up a second one and use one to dump in with a jet siphon to transfer water between the two. This allows for less water turbulence in the tank you are drafting from and if one tank has a failure you can simply pick up the hard suction and move it across to the other tank.
    If you are interested in more, check out the University of Illinois, Fire Service Institute in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois. They have an extensive Rural Water Supply Curiculum.

  22. #22
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    Originally posted by Chief802:
    <STRONG>
    3) Set up your tankers with the biggest possible dump. We use 10" and 12" round butterfly dumps for the fastest dump possible. Again, remember the "if the wheels aren't turning" theory.
    </STRONG>
    Maybe a 12 inch round butterfly would be OK, but I have seen a 10 inch butterfly vs. a 10 inch Newton Quick-Dump and there is no contest. With a 10 inch round butterfly valve, you end up with about a 31 square inch opening. With a 10 inch Newton, you have a 100 inch opening. You can move alot more water through that square hole than you can the round one.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    MetalMedic, You are most likely right in correcting me on the 10 inch verses 10 inch. If you compare the 10 inch butterfly to the older 10 inch model 1010 Newton, the butterfly will outperform the Newton due to the plunger that restricts the water flow from the tank, however, if you are comparing the 10 inch butterfly to the newer 10 inch model 1050 Newton, the Newton will most likely outperform the butterfly. The newer Newton has the flip up rear seal that is up and out of the way. Still some restriction but nothing like the older model.
    Also, I didn't mention that our tanks are all eliptical and tapered to the rear so that you don't get that last 15 second "trickle" at the end. When its empty, its empty.

  24. #24
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    Our 14 inch square jobs with compressed air jets work quite well.

    chief802
    cover approx. 210 square miles out of 5 stations. WE DON'T HAVE A SINGLE HYDRANT.
    With all the advice you are giving I just wondered what your ISO rating was in the areas without hydrants.

    Bob Snyder Mohntan PA
    you can pull off the big jobs without deploying a god-awful amount of equipment on the smaller ones or spending a ton of money on a fleet of pumper-squad-tanker-rescue-aerials that you'll rarely (never?) fully-utilize in your lifetime.

    What is your ISO rating?

    I just wondered what your ISO grade was. The guys who spoke earlier had the best grades in their state's.

    You speak so matter of factly ... I thought you could share with us what does a pumper-squad-tanker-recue-aerial (PSTRA) costs compared to a tanker pumper or a standard aerial?? Have you ever used a PSTRA??? Seen a department use one, if so who?

    Why do you say departments who own PSTRA's never use them or rarely use them? Charlottes rigs is always on the road, so is Battle Creeks and Niagras and Tulares? Where are you gettig you information????

    You suggest running three rigs minimum "you have proper truck/squad support...with an engine and a tanker" Does that cost less than a PSTRA? What if the other rigs don't get out?

    jpchev
    We try to train 4 times a year with the TF and have successfully shuttled over 1500 GPM over 3 miles for 2 hours.

    What s your ISO rating?

    Experience dictates that fill site pumpers need to be 1250 minimum, remember these are only rated 1250 at 10 ft. lift

    An old 500 gpm pumper using a Turbo Draft like Scott and Bucks FD fills at 1600 gpm with a 60 foot lift through as much as 200 feet of hose. Why such a big pump? A 1250 shoud be able to fill a rig at 3000 to 4000 gpm. Or two, 3 or 4 tankers at once. Why commit a pumper to a fill site?

    remember by the time you are into a shuttle operation you are PROBABLY just putting out a building fire, not saving lives

    The guys in wildland areas are saving lives and property most of the times they are in a shuttle situation.

    should abide by the POSTED SPEED LIMIT at all times,

    Even when it is unlimited in the daytime or 85 mph at night? Snowing, raining, icy?

    1500 GPM over 3 miles for 2 hours

    That is what a 16.5 minute round trip time per tanker at best case? You needd what, 11 3000 gallon tankers???

    What is your ISO rating?

    911-Wacker CHEMUNG NY
    AS FAR AS HOW MANY TANKERS PER FILL SITE, GENERAL RULE OF THUMB WOULD BE 3-4 WHITHIN 2 MILES, 5-6 WITHIN 5 MILES FOR OPTIMUM FLOW. ALWAYS USE A CLASS A PUMPER CAPABLE FILLING TANKERS AT 1000GPM+

    Even if all the tankers show up at the fill site at the same time? 3 to 4 at 2 miles would give you less than 2 minutes to make and break lines, position apparatus, and then try to fill them with a 1000 gpm pumper. The rule of thumb doesn't pass the math test.

    What is your ISO rating?

    Poor tanker design was brought up, is it poor tanker design if the tanker takes more than 60 seconds to dump or fill, seeing as how it is the only factors you control?

    Another person talked about using two pumpers and 10 tankers to move 1000 gpm 2 miles. At what point does it make more sense to lay hose once from the water point to the fire? A pair of PSTRA's could easiliy have it up and running at 1000 gpm in less than 10 minutes and sustain a fire flow of 500 gpm in the interum.

    The scary thing about 90% of the posters is, they enjoy Class 9 and 10 ratings and are giving advice.

    [ 07-21-2001: Message edited by: ccfire ]

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    ccfire:

    How many times have you seen a fire in the rural setting that needed that much water?

    OK TOK - LETS THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MINUTE!!

    I don't know what its like where you come from but around here if its not darkened down whith the first few loads your fighting a loosing battle and it won't matter how much you can flow you will be wetting down a basement full of ashes.

    [B]MOST OF US DO WHAT WE CAN WITH THE RESOURCES AVAILABLE,ISO IS A PLUS IF YOU HAVE THE MEANS.

    I THOUGHT THIS WAS JUST SUPPOSED TO BE A FRIENDLY SUGGESTION PAGE NOT A ******ING MATCH.
    Firefighter/NREMT-P/Public Safety Diver
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