Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23
  1. #1
    FIRE549
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question Deck gun nozzles

    What type of nozzle do you carry attached to your deck gun?

    Fog or Smooth bore?

    What is the tactical reason you carry that particular nozzle?

    Just taking a poll.

    Thanks!!!

    ------------------


  2. #2
    FRED
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Arrow

    We carry the Stack tip smoothbores attached to the deck guns. Here is why. (we carry the fog however it is rarely employed)

    -Reach -Anyone who has used a fog on a 2 1/2 or bigger line or on a Large Caliber stream knows a large amount of the water ends up on the ground. Add a moderate wind to the equasion and much of it gets blown off target and ends up watering the concrete. The smoothbore retains its shape better and thus more water ends up on the fire. Even under windy conditions.

    The Smoothbore at larger fires has larger droplets and thus doesn't evaporate before reaching the seat of the fire like the Fog does. Much of the Fog stream will turn to stream before reaching the seat of the fire and will be carried off by convective air currents.

    -It has better pentration...If you are outside going defensive there will probably be walls and celings that need to be breached with the stream to reach some of the fire. The smoothbore is superior to the Fog in this respect.

    We also carry a Foam Fog Master stream tip for Large Foam operations.

    So basicly we use it for its superior reach, penetration, and stream charicteristics.

    I hope that answers your question.

  3. #3
    ALSfirefighter
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Fire,

    Besides the excellent reasons FRED already stated, the fact that the smoothbores require less pressure to reach higher Gpm's, then the added pressure it takes to overcome the fog nozzle.

    ============================== ==========

  4. #4
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our normal 1st due Engine-Tank runs a set of stacked tip smoothbores, with the 1.5" tip left on the end.

    1.5" tip 'cause it flows 600gpm @ 80psi. 600gpm gives us 2 minutes of water off our 1200 gallon water tank.

    On the outside, the extra reach of smoothbores (especially if you use a good setup with long playpipes and stream-straightners and up the pressure beyond the 80psi normally listed in the books) lets the truck be farther away.

    Pressure really shouldn't be a concern with a deck gun sitting 2' above the pump...if ya got a pump that can do 1500gpm @ 150psi, it can supply 80psi to a smoothbore deck gun or 100 psi to a fog tip just fine.

    Same truck also has a "bomb line" setup with 300' of 3" and a portable master stream with a 350gpm-1000gpm fog when the deck gun isn't close enough or doesn't have the right angle to get the job done...which is the more likely scenario for us!


  5. #5
    FIRE549
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Thanks for all the quick information.

    What I am finding out confirms my beliefs in the use of the smooth-bore nozzle on the master streams/deck guns.



    ------------------

  6. #6
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    There is so much more to this topic than reach, maximum gpm flows and pressure.

    1. Let's start with the intended use. Will you use the gun off tank water?

    If you use it off tank water a lot is going to depend on the size of your tank suction line. On an pumper 10 years or older your limit will be around 250 gpm. On a new rig around 500 gpm. Maybe you were on top of things when you spec'd the rig and there aren't any limits if flow tank to pump.

    So if you believe in smooth bore tips and reach you'll need a 3/4 inch tip on the end of that stack if 250 gpm is your limit. If you over pump the gun, anything over 100 psi you will cavitate the pump, so 3/4 will probably be a bit too big.

    If you don稚 worry about things like this the nozzle will take care of things for you, if you have a dear anyone send me the standard stack you make for everyone else, or follow what Fire Engineering just published you値l be able to reach almost anything within 12 feet of the rig, because the hole will be too big.


    2. Will you use the gun off tank water at the same time an attack line is pulled?

    Say you pull up to a fully involved detached garage and you have exposures to the rear.

    You decide to gun it off tank water. Is there any possibility a hand line will be pulled to the exposure? If so, is there any chance that the line will be charged and spray water while you wait for a tanker or supply line to get hooked up?

    If there is you better run a 3/8" tip on the end of the 3/4" tip on the deck gun stack. If not you'll cavitate the pump or have two crappy streams. If the handline has a smooth bore you won't have a single useable stream.

    Of course as soon as the supply line kicks in you値l want to shut down change tips to make use of the higher flow. If you choose the wrong tip you値l cavitate the pump, cause an over pumped or lousy stream and shut down supply to the attack line, you know water always goes to the point of least resistance, in this case the deck gun.

    When the tanker arrives you値l have to work within the limit presented there, possibly the need to reduce or even increase tip size. Be careful odds are any change will cavitate the pump or result in a lousy stream.

    3. Do you intend to use the gun off a drop tank?

    If so how much can you shuttle? Say you have two 1500 gallon tankers and a fill point 2 miles away. You値l at best only shuttle 223 gpm and probably closer to 100 gpm. So you値l need a シ and ス inch tip on the stack of 3/8 and セ tips. Initially, you値l have full drop tanks and think man we got water next thing you know you値l trottle down to save water make lousy streams and then have to reduce tip size to get your streams back.

    If you decide to operate a hand line and the deck gun at the same time you値l need to reduce the tips at least in half.

    4. How big is your pump?

    If you have a 1500 gpm pump you値l need a 2 3/8 tip. If you want to make full use of the pump at draft you壇 need a 2 3/8 tip. For full use at a hydrant a 2 セ would be needed. So now all you need is 7 to 9 tips so far! Of course a 1000 gpm deck gun on a 1500 gpm pumper doesn稚 make any sense does it? The gun or guns needs to be able to use the rigs capacity.

    5. Do you intend to use the gun portably?

    What size hose will supply it? 1 セ, 2 2 ス, 3, 4 or 5?

    How long will the line be. Will you use more than one line? Who痴 portable monitor are you using? It will either have a flow limit of 500, 800, 850 or 1000 gpm portably. Are your guys really good with hydraulics? If they over pump the gun at the upper end flows it will go flying. Of course we know all fire departments follow the instructions that came with the device right? They always tie the device off. Then of course almost every lay requires a different size tip to maximize flow and stay within the operating parameters of the gun you own. You値l make lots of lousy streams if you are not on top of the hydraulics and the guy at the nozzle and pump need to make sure they are on the same tip.

    So lets say you use your dead lay of 2 ス hose say 1200 feet one line into the gun you値l need a 1 tip, Two 600 foot 2 ス lines will need a 1 シ tip.

    If you use 3 inch hose in the above examples add 1 3/8 and 1 5/8 tips.

    If you use 4 or larger hose you壇 better be real accurate on the EP or you値l launch the gun. Read the label on the gun it will tell you that. So far all you壇 need is 9 to 11 smooth bores.

    6. Do you intend to use the gun off a supply line?

    Then how good is your water system? Do all your hydrants have the same flow capability or is your system like most others some hydrants barely flow others flow a few hundred gpm and still others flow thousands? Did you label all your hydrants so you know the flow out of each per NFPA?

    Odds are you will never have the right tip in use on the gun if you didn稚 label the water system, and have a variety of flows and pressures from your hydrants. So consider adding a 4 high stack tip to deal with the middle flows, say 1 シ, 1 ス, 1 セ and 2. So you need a thirteen to fifteen high stack so far if you want to maximize your abilities. Of course you can just make do with any size tip.

    6. Did you indicate the size of water main that supplies each hydrant per NFPA? Does you supply line match your water systems ability or inability and equal the fire pumps abilities?

    If not, odds are you値l be operating a deck gun and another rig will hook to the same main cutting your flow in half. Or every time n attack line is pulled off the rig you値l need to shut down and change tips. So be prepared to switch tips a lot. Even the big boys make the covers of the magazines always using the smallest tip because they haven稚 figured out which tip to use. Prepare to watch your supply line collapse a lot.


    7.What kind of residuals do you have? What size supply line will you use?

    Odds are with the wide variety of flows and lengths of line laid, that you値l need to leave a ス to セ tip on the gun to insure it works off tank water and off the supply system every time. Odds are your supply line will collapse every time a tip is upsized.

    Of course you could just carry an automatic master stream tip and not need any smooth bores. No matter what the situation you would always have the right size tip, whether off tank water or a killer hydrant you壇 have the right tip, you couldn稚 cavitate your pump, the highest possible flow would always occur, it wouldn稚 matter if someone changed another line the nozzle would adjust automatically, if another rig started stealing your water the nozzle would adjust, reach as good and probably better straight across the board. You can buy them with flow ranges of 150 to 1000, 150 to 1250, 300 to 1000, 300 to 1500 gpm flow ranges. This group handles all flows of 33 high stacked tip in 1/16 increments from 3/16ths to 2 ス.

    For most 1250, 1500, 1750, 2000, 2250, and 2500 gpm pumpers a 300 to 2000, 500 to 2000 would be a better fit. Some rigs could use 500 to 4000, or 1000 to 6000 gpm ranges. Some automatics offer low, medium or high pressure settings with or without an eductor built in for applying foam. Don稚 use a smooth bore with foam.

    Gee, I wonder why automatics are part of NFPA for aerial master streams, could it be all the flow ranges and uncertainties that require their use?

    REACH
    Have you ever seen 560 feet of reach and 320 feet of height with a smooth bore tip on a monitor? I have with a fog nozzle. Generic statements are rarely absolutes.



  7. #7
    GBordas
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS - What are you talking about? Are you a chauffer? Have you ever been assigned as an MPO? The topic is about what type of nozzles we use on our deckpipes and why. Not what size pump or what the objectives are for placing a deckpipe into operation.

    In my department our pumpers are fitted with stacked tips and a gate with as small as a tip as we use on our handlines (15/16") Our chauffer/driver is responsible for securing a water source and deploying the use of the deckpipe. For that reason we also have the ball valve on the tip so that the MPO can charge the pipe, then climb the apparatus and properly position the deckpipe before water will flow. Our pumpers are equipped with 100GPM pumps and 500gal. booster tanks. The deck pipe is 3-1/2" in diameter straight off the pump. It has been this way for years. This stuff you said about whether the pumper is 10 years old or older, or less than 10 years old is ridiculous but maybe that is the case in your department. Straight tips allow you to have a more focused, solid stream with a greater volume of water and reach that can be met with a lesser operating pressure of that from a fog or adjustable stream tip. You asked a question regarding reach, "Have you ever seen 560 feet of reach and 320 feet of height with a smooth bore tip on a monitor? I have with a fog nozzle. Generic statements are rarely absolutes." Well I would like to answer that and say "yes I have". In my oppinion the Chicago Fire Department is better at deck pipe operations than anything I have seen. Have you ever heard of a Chicago Pipe? They can get a straight stream off their deckpipes up as high and higher with a minimal amount of pressure. Just out of curiosity, What was the discharge pressure on that fog nozzle that was getting 560' of reach and 320' of height? Now take that DP and apply it to a stacked tip and see what you can do. Your comment about "Generic statements are rarely absolutes" should be rethought in this case.

    Now to answer the original posted question,
    "What type of nozzle do you carry attached to your deck gun, Fog or Smooth bore?"

    Smoothbore. Stacked tips ranging in size from the smallest of 15/16" up to 3" in diameter

    "What is the tactical reason you carry that particular nozzle?"

    Because of they can operate effectively at low operating pressures, effectivness for reach, penetration and greater volume of water with less stream breakup.

    GB


  8. #8
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    GBordas

    // What are you talking about?

    You're asking me if I'm a MPO or driver operator and you don't know what I'm talking about, geesh!

    //Are you a chauffer?

    Been there done it.

    //Have you ever been assigned as an MPO?

    Been there done it.

    //The topic is about what type of nozzles we use on our deckpipes and why.

    I mentioned both types and explained why and why not to use one or the other.

    //Not what size pump or what the objectives are for placing a deckpipe into operation.

    Sorry, let me quote to you the topic of this forum:

    //What type of nozzle do you carry attached to your deck gun?

    There are only two choices, I talked about both.

    //Fog or Smooth bore?

    I talked about both. We carry both.

    //What is the tactical reason you carry that particular nozzle?

    Dang, I spent lots of time on the tactical reasons, so let me return the question, what are you talking about?

    ///Our chauffer/driver is responsible for securing a water source and deploying the use of the deckpipe. For that reason we also have the ball valve on the tip so that the MPO can charge the pipe, then climb the apparatus and properly position the deckpipe before water will flow.

    Gee, nice violation of NFPA 1901, dangerous! Plus you violate the manufacturers guidlines for the device. Good job! Next time spec the rig right, place dual controls, or use a remote gun with remote controls.

    //This stuff you said about whether the pumper is 10 years old or older, or less than 10 years old is ridiculous but maybe that is the case in your department.

    Gee, think yo could spend 10 seconds explaining why it is rediculous? There is this document called NFPA 1901, that all apparatus manufacturers follow as a minimum standard. You ought to read it. It is the case everywhere. That is where my data came from. And yours?

    ///Straight tips allow you to have a more focused, solid stream with a greater volume of water and reach that can be met with a lesser operating pressure of that from a fog or adjustable stream tip.

    Yeah yeah, except in real life.

    //560' "yes I have".

    Where?

    //In my oppinion the Chicago Fire Department is better at deck pipe operations than anything I have seen. Have you ever heard of a Chicago Pipe?

    They copied it from a city called San Francisco. Forty years ago SFFD was doing the same thing with the same tip. Chicago wasn't. Plus Chicago owns a realy lousy gun, for grat gun see LAFD.

    /// They can get a straight stream off their deckpipes up as high and higher with a minimal amount of pressure.

    No sir they don't resch 560 feet. Go back and read the article. Yeah 200 to 250 psi is minimal pressure? Comeon get your facts straight.

    //Just out of curiosity, What was the discharge pressure on that fog nozzle that was getting 560' of reach and 320' of height?

    80 to 100 psi.

    //Now take that DP and apply it to a stacked tip and see what you can do.

    The same or less.

    Now to answer the original posted question,
    "What type of nozzle do you carry attached to your deck gun, Fog or Smooth bore?"

    Both for the reasons I posted.

    //Smoothbore. Stacked tips ranging in size from the smallest of 15/16" up to 3" in diameter

    Wrong, how about up to 6 inches and down to 1/8" in fire service use.

    //Because of they can operate effectively at low operating pressures

    For a deck gun??? Come on!

    //effectivness for reach

    You just contradicted yourself, at low operating pressures it will never beat a fog tip.

    //penetration

    Oh I see a 80 psi stream has more penetration than a 100 psi stream? Explain that.

    // greater volume of water

    That what? A 1000 gpm is 1000 gpm isn't it?



  9. #9
    570eck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Smoothbore for most situations. Distance and volume to fire seat.
    Fog for exposures or maybe cooling a tank at haz-mats. Sorry I couldn't be longer

  10. #10
    Engine69
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    Straight pipe (stacked tips & stream straightener).


  11. #11
    JohnM
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We used s/b tips until this year when we had the annual officer swapout. We just changed to fog tips, which does not make me happy. I feel the s/b is much more effective. And I know I'm getting off topic, but they are vastly superior on an aerial device. We tried many diffent pressures, GPM's, etc from our aerial platform, and the smooth bore was drilling holes in the ground from 100', and the fog was nice for watering the little league field. And LHS, do you have a full time job? You really crank out some extensive posts.

  12. #12
    Detroit Fire
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Most of our engines run a smooth bore on our engines. Our engines have 500 gallon tanks on two of our newer engines which are 1000 gallon tanks they use a combo strait fog nozzle. We use the deck gun a lot on structure for quick knock down. IE ( a dwelling going through out the second engine comes up and dumps all the tank water on the fire cools it down so the engine crew can get at it a little better).I have used both and i like the smooth bore on the 500 gallon engines and the combo fog strait stream on the 1000 gallon engines

  13. #13
    GBordas
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS-
    The reason I had asked what are you talking about is because the information you quoted was from books, magazines and what the NFPA said and in my oppinion was not based from any experiences you may have had. Anyway it is an open forum discussion, and though different, we are entitled to our oppinions. It certainly makes for interesting discussions.

    Aside from the deckpipes on the pumpers we also have tower ladders. They are put into operation more than deckpipes and there is not a single fog nozzle on any of the buckets. Just stacked tips!

    Stay safe all.
    GB


  14. #14
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //The reason I had asked what are you talking about is because the information you quoted was from books

    Oh, what book says you can use two smooth bores off one tank suction line? What book says reach will be 12 feet with a 1 1/2" tip?

    //what the NFPA said and in my oppinion was not based from any experiences you may have had.

    Oh so I've never been out with a rig and tried to transfer water or operate a gun and fouind th limitation I've never seen a supply line collapse when a deck gun with a big tip was opened cavitating the pump?? This week I used smooth bores to 3 1/2" in size and three 8 inch supply lines, did the same in Texas and in Kingston. So the data is fresh. And you?

    // oppinions.

    Sorry I posted fact not opinion


    //Aside from the deckpipes on the pumpers we also have tower ladders. They are put into operation more than deckpipes and there is not a single fog nozzle on any of the buckets. Just stacked tips!

    Odds are the smallest tip. YOu know mack says youneed 222 psi to get 1000 gpm out of there tower. I'm sure no one is doing that.


    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-23-2001).]

  15. #15
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We use SB stack tips @ 1.5, 1.75, & 2" with flows of approx. 600, 800, and 1,000 respectively. We have never had a problem flowing the max amount from any engine we have at either department that I work at.

    The fog nozzle on a master stream seems to break up quicker, often depriving the seat of the fire the water you wanted to apply.

    Our new engine in Winfield will have a Vindicator on the master stream, we should be able to flow capacity, 1500 without a problem. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

  16. #16
    Looper
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We use variable gpm fog nozzles or TFT automatics. Engines have 1000gpm nozzles on the deck gun, which are detachable for ground use. Our Tower has a single 2000gpm TFT, although during training we have flowed 3000gpm through it -- a 3000gpm straight stream was quite impressive!! (until you go to one of the chemical plants and see the BIG toys) It was fed by a single hydrant through one 5" line.

    I like the variable gpm (350/500/750/1000) fog nozzle because it gives more options. I don't have shut down to change my flow rate, and I can use either a straight stream or fog as the situation dictates. We still carry the stack tips, but they are buried deep in the truck.

  17. #17
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Good choice, kinda like a manual transmission though!

  18. #18
    E229Lt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Solid to hit the fire and Fog to wash the exposure.

    JMHO

    [This message has been edited by E229lt (edited 05-31-2001).]

  19. #19
    BIG PAULIE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Looper, correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure that a TFT 2000gpm nozzle(Monsoon) will not flow 3000gpm.

  20. #20
    Nick SBFD 6
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Red face

    Guess what, if you're "switchin' to guns"
    you need the water, so we use stacked tips primarily. We also have fogs just in case.
    Sorry LHS, I don't have any fancy numbers or NFPA statutes to back up my story, it is just what my department does.

    -Nick

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts