Thread: High Rise Kit- 2 1/2 vs. 1 3/4 ?
05-30-2001, 11:18 AM #1shanemFirehouse.com Guest
High Rise Kit- 2 1/2 vs. 1 3/4 ?
Our dept. is currently re-writing our sog's on high rise fires. I just need a little info. on what different depts. use for their high rise jobs (size of hose, length, nozzle, extra equip.) and why you chose that certain equipment. Thanks!
05-30-2001, 04:12 PM #2NFDLT55Firehouse.com Guest
In our packs we carry, 150 (3 lengths) feet of 1.75" hose line, a straight stream tip, two spanner wrenches, a 2.5" to 1.75" reducer. We carry 1.75" hose line because that is our primary attack line. Not 100% sure why we pack a straight stream tip, the 2.5" reducer is there because all standpipes in buildings are standard sized (2.5 inches) so we obviously need to reduce to an inch and three quarters. The spanner is incase the standpipe is stuck, and needs to be opened.
[This message has been edited by NFDLT55 (edited 05-30-2001).]
05-30-2001, 04:53 PM #3res7cueFirehouse.com Guest
We carry 200' of 1.75" with SB nozzles, gated wye, 2.5" to 1.5" reducer and spanner wrenches. We carry this 'cause that is what we found works the best and is what we want to carry !
05-30-2001, 05:50 PM #4ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
I think you have to look at what your jurisdiction has to make your final decision.
If the only standpipes are in protected residential occupancies, then I'd go with 1.75"
If on the other hand you have highrise office buildings with large open floor spaces,then I think you have to seriously look at 2.5".
If you had a 7,000 sq ft or more building well involved in fire would you attack it with an 1.75" line? Then why do departments when faced with a similar situation 90' in the air bring 1.75" lines with us?
A 2.5" line needs more firefighters to deploy but if you need it then an 1.75" line will not due just because it is easier to move.
Again you need to preplan your response area.
05-30-2001, 06:54 PM #5E229LtFirehouse.com Guest
Here comes 2 cents more.
For initial standpipe operations:
2 1/2". Mandatory
Why, you ask?
In the event there is a problem supplying the standpipe, you may well be initiating your attack with house pressure. If this is the case, 1 3/4" hose will have too much FL and many/most fog tips will require 100 psi.
The combination of both could be a disaster.
Around me, house pressure must be kept at a minimum of 50 psi at any outlet. This leaves little room for friction loss and, I believe, calls for the larger hose diameter.
05-30-2001, 07:36 PM #6TheChronicFirehouse.com Guest
Your HighRise hose and nozzle selections must always be made so they will operate under YOUR worst low pressure water supply scenario possible.
What we use may not work for you. Example: We use 150' of 2.5" w/a 15/16" smoothbore but you may have to use 1.75" instead because of manpower problems or because of possible water supply problems such as the demands of an activated combination automatic sprinkler/standpipe system, small water mains - if any - in the area, or high daytime or nightime water use in the area OR you may have structures with PRVs or mutiple orifice plates in the system. You may have vandalism and might need to carry vise grips, pipe wrenches and other tools just to open or close a valve. Even with your engine as a supply source you may not have enough pressure available to use fog or fog/smooth 'break-a-part' nozzles and will need to use smooth bore only. (I think smooth bore is probably best). All that is up to you - what works here may not work for you. Best way to go is to plan for the worst case scenario - low pressure water supply.
But remember that there's a whole lot more to HighRise SOPs than the water - there's elevator dos and don'ts, ventilation concerns, staging, ICS for mutlilevel ops, tenant evacs & stairwell mayhem, etc, etc.
05-30-2001, 10:38 PM #7StaylowFirehouse.com Guest
We run with 100' packs of 1 3/4 line with a variety of nozzles. Most are TFT 200 gpm though. The rest are smooth bore. We wye off of the standpipes from the floor bellow.
We use this hose because it is our primary attack line and for its maneuverability, but also because of lack of experience. We are in the process of incorporating 2 1/2 inch attack line with 1 1/8 tips for high rise ops where the fire flow would warrant it and if we run into pressure problems. But, these changes probably will not happen til we get our butts kicked in a high rise fire.
I personally think that both size hoses should be utilized for their major benefits. Big line= gpm's and low pressure situations. Small line= higher pressure situations, smaller fires and maneuverability. Just my 2 cents!
05-30-2001, 11:46 PM #8Break-N-EntryFirehouse.com Guest
I'd go with at least 150 feet of 2 1/2" and use a 1 1/8" inch smoothbore nozzle. Spanners, a flashlight, vise-grips and a pipewrench are musts to throw in the bag. I've seen some crews carry and use a 45 degree fitting and also pack an in-line guage (and mutual aid thread adapters). If you can find a 1 1/8" tip that is threaded for your 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" hose couplings get it and carry a short 12 or 15 foot length of that size hose and nozzle for overhauling. Excellent points were made above about ICS and preplanning - you got to know your buildings, the water and pressures available, and this is important: make sure your drivers know which connection they are suppossed to pump into - I for one hate waiting for water out of the standpipe when he's pushing water into the sprinkler system.
05-30-2001, 11:56 PM #9eCappyFirehouse.com Guest
More fire departments should be doing what you are - rewriting SOPs! All anyone thinks about is water, hose, and nozzles - what about air supply? What about FAST/RIT staging? They only think about things like that AFTER the fact!
One pretty good source for high rise fire sops (with samples from Phoenix and elsewhere) is "Operational Considerations For Highrise Firefighting" by United States Fire Administration (Publication April 1996 #TR082) available by clicking on the publications icon at http://www.usfa.fema.gov
05-31-2001, 09:24 AM #10Mr.MeanerFirehouse.com Guest
My two cents:
1. I don't want to criticize anything said so far but you really should stay away from fog nozzles in hi-rise ops. I doubt you'll have enough pressure to satisfy any fog nozzle during your initial attack.
2. I don't think 100 foot of hose is adequate, especially if you're working off the standpipe connection one floor below the fire floor (like you are suppossed to be doing) so 150 foot should be the minimum you should carry. USE 2.5 INCH HOSE!
3. Have a preplan that includes notes on where the gas/electric shut offs are - they're awfully hard to find in basements filled with tenant clutter. Same with your sprinkler controls.
4. Have an accountability system - you're going to need it.
5. Go to each hi-rise building and check your communication systems - will your radios work in those buildings - on repeater - on simplex?
6. Look things over to see if you should use PPV in the stairwells OR if the building has it's own pressurization system.
7. Make sure your Incident Command System will work in hi-rise ops. What do you call the officer and crew on the fire floor - by his unit number - or by a division number that is the same as the floor number?
8. Make sure the building has drills - can you get up the stairwells (carrying hose and equipment) that a couple hundred people may be coming down? ARE THERE ANY HANDICAPPED?
9. You're going to need troops - can you get additional manpower there - and then up the stairs? How long will they last after their hike up the stairs? Be ready to call for people.
10. Your SCBA air supply WILL run out fast - have a plan for getting air in from other units, or refilled, and get it back inside ASAP.
Remember: Stay away from fog nozzles - you won't have the pressure. Think you need a fog to vent? Well, OK so throw a small plastic fog nozzle that fits your smooth bore tip in the bag.
05-31-2001, 10:19 AM #11wrongWAYFirehouse.com Guest
These are some very good suggestions and I'm going to check our SOPs today and see what we overlooked!
I want to add that one of the keys to a successfull standpipe operation is the engine's discharge pump pressure. It's often overlooked, or just left at some 'rule of thumb' that may not work at each structure you have. The pump operator isn't just suppling pressure for the high rise pack nozzle and hose. There is also the friction loss of the riser, the pipe fittings, and even the friction loss of the hose from the engine to the siamese that must be added in.
We have gone to our high rise and mid-rise structures, done walk-thru tours and taking all of the above into account we preplanned our engine discharge pressures and then stenciled them over the siamese connections. Doing that makes the pump operator's job easier, faster, and almost fool proof.
Getting a piezometer or in-line gauge for your high rise kit might be looked upon as a luxury, but it can be handy. The hose team working off the standpipe can tell if the pressure is right.
Get some extra valve hand wheels for your high rise bag. I don't know where they go or who would want to steal them, but they're never there on the standpipe for us! Have your own.
Our area has different hose threads, carry and clearly mark adapters if your area has that too.
05-31-2001, 10:37 AM #12E229LtFirehouse.com Guest
Another option, it may have been already stated but here goes,
My department now augments the standpipe system by hooking a second line from a second engine into the first floor outlet.
A double female is used to make up the line to the outlet. Any pressure reducers must be removed or fully opened and of course the outlet valve must also be opened after the line is charged.
We do this in the event any section valves have been closed, the siamese is defective or clogged or there is a break in the system between the siamese and the riser.
05-31-2001, 06:47 PM #13BIG PAULIEFirehouse.com Guest
Los Angeles City Fire Department uses 2" attack hose for their high rise pack and has had real good sucess with the gpm. They have had fully involved floors in buildings so I think they know what they need. Now I am not sure wether or not they also use
2-1/2". I would assume that they do. I think a very important issue that needs to be addressed in buildings that have in house pumps is to properly take over the system when it can not give the flows that are needed. This depends totally on the churn pressure of the building pump. Fire department pumping apparatus must pump higher then the building pump churn pressure to take over the system to deliver higher pressures/flows. Their is no calculating of engine pressures. It does not matter what floor the fire is on. Just pump to the churn pressure of the in house pump.
06-01-2001, 08:45 AM #14Lt.ToddFirehouse.com Guest
We are testing 2" attack lines now. So far we are really pleased with the results. With a solid bore tip you can produce a great stream at low pressures.
We are currently trying different set-ups, right now we use a 25 ft section of 3" connected to a wye, we then run our 2" of the wye. The 3" allows us to make the landing we are going in at and we get all our hose on the fire floor that way.
If you need the nozzle right at your point of entrance, feed the slack up the next flight and let it feed down.
Before committing to any one thing, try it out first. Theres no one perfect way to do anything.
06-04-2001, 06:15 PM #15Smokeetr4Firehouse.com Guest
Fire Engineering magazine had a good article on " Standpipe Operations" in the Aug 2000 edition. If you can get your hands on one it is worth the read. I think it does a good job at answering this question.
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