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  1. #1
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    Default 1 1/2 vs 1 3/4 inch hose

    My question is simple. My department is discussing upgrading our 1 1/2" hose with 1 3/4" hose. Is there any recomendations or resources to help our decision? We are a semi-rural department with 2 engines (1250 gpm & 2000 gpm w/1000 gal. tanks), 92 foot Tower (1500 gpm), Heavy Rescue, 2500 gal. Tanker, and Brush Truck. We run @ 300 calls / year, with 50 active memebers. Any references to literature would be helpful. null


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    The guys from New York City will tell you 1 3/4" is the only way to go and you need 184 gpm because they fight so many fires they know everything, even when proven on line they fight no more structure fires than anyone else.

    The guys from Washington DC will tell you 1 1/2" at 95 to 125 gpm works fine on every fire. They've had no reason to chage diameter. In fact most 1 3/4" hose users could flow the same thing with their 1 1/2" hose according to Fornels book.

    The busiest volunteer house in the US Kentland, uses 1 1/2" as well.

    Odds are your fires will go out with either.

    Someone selling nozzles or hose will tell you you can't possibly hold your lines and you'll do better at 300 gpm at no reaction.

    Others will tell you more is better but never seem to know how much is too much.

    If your fires are going out now why change? Add some Class A foam to reduce the amount of water needed for overall and live happily everafter.

  3. #3
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    In fact most 1 3/4" hose users could flow the same thing with their 1 1/2" hose according to Fornels book.
    That sounds like a nozzle problem to me.

    Chief get your hands on a flowmeter and find out what you are actually flowing. A few years ago we found out that our Akron 125 gpm nozzles were flowing between 60 and 90 GPM. If you are not having problems putting fires out and your flows are similar to what ours were then don't change your hose change your nozzles. If you are flowing what you should and still want more water then go to the bigger hose.

    As a side bar, our 1 3/4 lines with Vindicator heavy attack nozzles flow well over 200 GPM giving us the ability to attack just about everything with the more manuverable 1 3/4. It is truely an impressive nozzle, and worth a look.

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    I would guess that you are not changing hose for fun but due to age. I would suggest having the hose manufacturer demo the hose. We use 1 3/4 with a 15/16 smooth bore and have good results. We have three person engine companies, we flow about 150 to 200 gpm depending on the situation. Lots of departments use 1.5 inch and good results. I will say 1 3/4 is more versatal with foam and engine pressures

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    It ain’t a nozzle issue! LOL.

    Every make of 1 ½” or 1 ¾” hose will flow 200 gpm. Every department has a nozzle that can flow that much too. Turn the throttle up on the pump panel, lol, all fire trucks have one.

    I think what Fornell was referring to was, everyone is flowing 150 gpm or less on all 1 ¾ attack lines that he tested. WHY? Because, no one is pumping the right pressure, somewhere between 1970 and 1980 the fire service got real stupid pumping ridiculously low pump pressures and the trend continues today.

    All 1 ¾ nozzles sold for 1 3/4" hose can flow more than that. TFT 50 to 350 etc, Elkhart 150 to 325, Akron 150 to 400, smooth bore stacks to 328, etc.

    I can’t imagine a firefighter could not tell the difference between 60 gpm and 125 gpm. “Chief this line feels just like a booster!” Just because you read it on FH.com doesn’t mean the guy who posted it isn’t making it up to sell his Vindicator nozzle. There have not been any recalls on Akron nozzles, have there?

    60 gpm, HONESTLY????? That means you were pumping 28 psi pump pressure on a 200 foot 1 ¾” line? YES TWENTY EIGHT!!!!!! How’d you figure that? 125 Turbo Jet, at 16 psi flows 60 gpm plus friction loss in the 1 ¾” hose 6 psi per 100 feet or 12 psi total. This guy would have you believe they didn’t know that 16 psi NP and a pump pressure of 28 psi was too low!!!! BUY MY NOZZLE it doesn’t require any pressure. At 16 psi, the Turbo Jet reaches almost 15 feet. STILL DIDN"T KNOW FOR ALL THOSE YEARS HUH? It could be a lower of the hiring standards I guess. Wow! Just goes to show you how little some firefighters know.

    95 gpm huh??? That is a pump pressure of 93 psi and a NP of 65 psi….Yeah they didn’t know till they bought a flow meter. PLEASE BUY MY FLOWMETER. What does the VINDICATOR FLOW AT 28 psi EP through 200 feet of hose? With the SUPER hose you are selling it would have been pump discharge pressures more like 20 and 70 psi Eps………. Please buy this!!!!! You really did this huh?

    A 1 ½ inch line can flow over 200 gpm too at reasonable pump pressures and have low reaction force, plus you already own the nozzles to do it.

    Don’t buy a nozzle or change hose just to increase flows. Geese, everyone is selling something out there. Throttle up and use the nozzles you have.

    Cut the sales pitches and analyze what is being said.

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    Snorkle, I don't sell Vindicators or hose or anything else. I simply like the Vindicator, just like some guys like smooth bores, and some even like the nozzles made by TFT.

    As an obvious fan of TFT you should know the dangers of underpumping your line. What I am refering to was a nozzle problem. Years ago we never flow tested our nozzles on a regular basis. We carried 125gpm Akron Marauders. When we looked into purchasing new nozzles we found that at 100 psi tip pressure some of our nozzles were flowing very low flows, as low as 60 gpm. Most flowed around 90 gpm. Since Akron stopped making the Marauder we purchased new Elkhart Chiefs. It is my part time department that uses the vindicator. Are you so ignorant that you have to make fun of a department's past problems? I presented that material to educate others to a possible problem that they could have. When was the last time your department flow tested its nozzles or overhauled them? I can almost gaurentee that your older TFT's aren't preforming like they did when they were new.

    I also think you're in need of an FAE refresher, you can't just throttle up and get an infinite amount of water. If that was the case we would all use the red line. (booster)

  7. #7
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    Anyone who doesn't periodically flow test a combination nozzle has no clue what the true flow is from that nozzle.

    The reasons for variation can be lack of maintenance, parts damaged or worn out, clogged inner workings of the nozzle, and wrong pump pressures brought on by calculations and not actual flow tests. Auto nozzles in my experience are particularly susceptible to flow problems due to poor maintenance.

    So Snorkel, your ridicule shows your lack of understanding the problem and not ADSN/WFLD having a problem. Yes 1 1/2" hose can flow 200 gpm, but it will never max out anywhere near what 1 3/4 will.

    Use whatever hose you like and your nozzle choice too. Just tell me though if you don't flow meter it at some point...how do you really know your flow?

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp
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    Millions of people living as foes
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    I mention every make of nozzles and you say I use TFT's? What made you say that?

    I've never under pumped a line by 150 psi like you alleged happened in your professional fire department.

    60 gpm at 100 psi, and you could not tell the difference in nozzle reaction??? 30 versus 60 pounds. So you would have us all believe that when you turn the flow ring on a nozzle you don't notice an increase or decrease in reaction and see a larger or smaller stream? So you got 60 gpm at 100 psi at the pressure required to flow 125 gpm? That is harder to believe than what you said te first time! You want us to believe that the water way was just 20 percent of spec? Nothing was hanging out the end? A pumper wasn't on the hose? The stream didn't look like sheought? Everything looked just fine? Come on, give it a rest. Oh bosster will blow 60 gpm all day, or 100 or 150 or 220 gpm, yes you can just throttle up, as long as the nozzle has the flow range.

    When it took 10 minutes to empty the tank versus 4 minutes no one noticed eh?

    I can't throttle up and get an infinite amount of water? Where did I suggest that? I can get the flow rating of the nozzle every time. It won't ever be 60 gpm. EVER! 1 1/2" and 1 3/4" can both flow the 200 gpm and certainly the 150 gpm, all day.

    60 gpm, is a joke. If you couldn't figure it out the first day that it happened you have no business in the fire service. Let's see, they got new nozzles one day and forgot something called nozzle reaction they spent an entire career facing? The loss of reach wasn't noticed, the loss of impact? The loss of visible volume in the line? The lower RPM on the pump? Oh I'm sorry your the guy who blames the manufacturer after you buy a fire truck that the jack spread is to wide even though the offer a model with the narrowest jack spread in the industry, I'm sorry I forgot. What was I thinking, LOL? It was E-Ones Fault and now it is Akron's fault.

    So which TurboJet in my FD won't flow within 5% of its rated flow every time? Which one won't have a degraded stream?

    Flow meter huh? Yeah right any other inaccurate means you can think of? How about time, scales, filling a drop tank, something concrete.

    The problem is far smaller with combo nozzles than automatics. We get exactly what is on the flow ring. A line gauge behind the nozzle is plenty, thanks. Tell me who runs fixed flow nozzles is having 50% reductions in flows? WHO? Are you two really suggesting a hole in a nozzle can flow 50% less and not be noticed by the nozzleman?

    And 1 3/4 will never max out anywhere near 2", 2 1/2", 3", 3 1/2", 4", 4 1/2", 5" or 6 inch hose either. If you don't throttle up, iof you don't have the right flow range on your hose, the 1 1/2" may well beat you, it certainly beats the guy flowing 60 gpm all day. Are you suggesting there is never too much? If the fire is going out with 1 1/2" why change? Washington DC and Kentland don't know what they are doing eh? I bet they are not flowing 60 gpm, LOL.

    Mean while back to the topic, most 1 1/2" hose is really 1 3/4" and most 1 3/4" is really 2 inch. So if you want 1 3/4" flows buy 1 1/2" hose. Get out your tape and measure yourself. Save a buck your 1 1/2" is simply mislabeled 1 3/4" hose.

    Just remember there is a nozzle conspiracy headed by the nozzle makers to get all of you to believe your nozzles don't work and your fires are not going out so they can help you get rid of perfectly good nozzles.

    Look at what is being sold. Fixed flow fixed pressure you know Chiefs, Assaults, etc...that is not new it is a 1960's nozzle LOL. Your Turbo Jets do that as well. Smaller automatics that will fit in the cross lay bed. Throw away a good nozzle for a less capable one. Yeah right.

    [ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: snorklesquad ]

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    Looks like we need to get Blacksheep1 in on this one.

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    60 gpm at 100 psi, and you could not tell the difference in nozzle reaction???
    I guess being a full time department we got to our fires before they were conflagrations and were able to put the fire out. Even with 60 gpm.
    So where are you from Snorkle? I'd love to see a flawless department.

    Sorry about the distraction Chief. It would be a good idea to flow test your current equipment. See where you are at many reps are willing to come out and do side by side comparisons. You may find that your equipment is doing just fine and decide not to change. Also look at your rig. Do you use long preconnects, or hose from a bulk hose bed then you may want to look at 1 3/4 to reduce friction loss. Possibly even 2" hose would work best for you. On the other hand if your using skids attached to larger diameter lines then the 1 1/2 may be just fine.

    Your flow should also be part of the equation. 1 1/2" is only practical at flows of 125 gpm or less. If as one person suggested you flow 200 GPM out of your 200' 1.5" line your PDP would be about 292 psi (96 per 100' and 100 at tip). Rather ridiculous. using the same flow and length 1.75 is pumped at 224 and 2" at 164.

    Just a few thoughts

  11. #11
    Forum Member 911WACKER's Avatar
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    WE FOUND 1 3/4 WORKS WELL WITH TFT AUTOS,MUCH BETTER THAN THE OLD 1 1/2 WITH 95 GPM NOZZLES---TRY SOME DIFFERENT HOSES AND NOZZLES AND SEE WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU
    Firefighter/NREMT-P/Public Safety Diver
    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

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    My sugestion is ask the guys that are going to be using the line what they like better,they are the ones using it. Let them use both lines and make their own decision i have used both my preference is 1 1/2.

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    292 psi is rediculous and 224 psi isn't. Well we flow 200 gpm through a 200 foot line with 1 1/2" hose at 242 psi. Is it still rediculous? At 200 psi we flow 200 gpm through a 150 foot line.

    The working pressure of the hose is 500 psi, test is 800 and burst is 1500. We are well within NFPA 1961-2 stds. Define rediculous. What are you afraid of?

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    Well I said it before and Ill say it again.
    If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck....It Must be a Duck!

    snorklesquad:

    A member since June 30..only a couple days after LHS was kicked of the sight!

    Preaches like LHS!
    Rambles like LHS!
    Knows all the answers like LHS!
    Types like LHS!
    Sounds like LHS!

    Must be LHS!
    High Larry
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

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    Snorklesquad: Is your name Larry Stevens?

    Just curious about part of your post:

    /60 gpm, HONESTLY????? That means you were pumping 28 psi pump pressure on a 200 foot 1 ¾” line? YES TWENTY EIGHT!!!!!! //

    According to the TFT web page you would need 100-psi PDP to get 60-gpm on a 200' 1 3/4 hose lay. I know this is an automatic and not the Akron mentioned but FL and NP is what it is regardless of what it comes out of.

    Seems to be a far cry off of the 28-psi you mentioned.

    I can say that I have seen at least 100 nozzles that flow in the 60-gpm range with a PDP of around 100-120-psi. (No they were not low flow nozzles) In most cases it was a lack of nozzle maintenance that caused the low flows. In other situations it was a combination of both nozzle and bad hose.

    I understand your position on your numbers but it appears that you want us all to live in a perfect world where the FL is excatly what the book says, or that the nozzles ALWAYS flow what they are supposed to.

    This is simply not the case. You dislike flowmeters and use the same argument against them as LHS. Well if its so important to use UL foam and UL foam equipment then why would it be so wrong to use a UL Flowmeter?

    I have done every flow testing method you mention and in all cases I have found that the UL listed Fire Research flowmeter was accurate to within 2 gallons a minute, or a toilet flush.

    Chief641:
    I would first determine the flows your would like to achieve and what max PDP you are comfortable with. You can flow a lot of water out of the 1 1/2 hose with the right tip. If you go to 1 3/4 hose you should look at upgrading your nozzles also. Going to a larger line with the same nozzles will only provide for longer hose lays and/or less PDP because of less FL. Your flow rates will be limited to the flow rates of the nozzle.

    Who ever you have come out to show you their equipment I would insist that they use UL flowmeters and pressures gauges.

    Good luck in your efforts.
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

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    According to TFt huh? Well according to the Akron fire Calc, the nozzle in question is an Akron, so why would yo go to TFT? It says 28 psi. Oh that's right yo're sellin something, trying to make a case for yor nozzle.

    You know the formula gpm1 and gpm2 at rated np then at new EP. It is in all the text books. Friction loss doesn't change, the Fire Calc is right.

    Far cry off huh? is 60 gpm flowing through 100 feet of 1 3/4" hose 6 psi or isn't it? Does a 125 gpm tip flow 60 gpm at 16 psi or doesn't it. IS IFSTA, Kimbal, AKRON, Elkhart and Fire Engineering all wrong on their publications? How about post the formula and work it for us, I've posted my source, you quote a non-fixed flow nozzle to make your case to sell a nozzle, so put up or shut up!

    Yeah you've seen non-Maurauders and non-fixed and non-selecto flow style nozzles. But that isn't what he was talking about now was it?

    It wasall do to maintenance, nd the streams looked great, and on a Maurader when the line was opened at 148 psi EP it didn't flow more for a few seconds due to the 1.57 times the NP momentary nozzle reaction and then shut down in flow? Bull!

    And you've seen this happen with fixed flow or selecto flow or turbo jet nozzles? So bad hose didn't change stream quality?

    My position on FL is quite simple, I posted the worst case published losses not the dream world 1 34" crap you all been posting with 1 3/4" hose that is really 2 1/4" in diameter, truth in advertising, certainly you've heard about it?

    If yo do an NFPA 1901 acceptance test yo won't be getting any suprises out of yor fire truck plumbing either. But of corse with your so called 300 gpm handline nozzle you create problems FL wise out of the crosslays.

    So why don't you take a few nozzle manufacturers to court? You know, tell us what makes that meet NFPA do not do what they say they do. Tell us what 3rd party testing agencies are on the take from the nozzle guys. I say you are all hot air. You know why, all of them do exactly what they say they do. If you maintain and inspect you nozzles after use, yeah it is in the instructions, they continue to do what they say they do. Perfect world, eh?
    The fire is not going to care if yo are off by 50 gpm or 25 psi, is it? If youare livig on that egde of the envelope you've got some real problems.

    So who using 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" hose is not putting their fires out? Why isn't DV and Kentland dumping all the 95 and 125 gpm nozzles they own? Aren't they getting their fair share of fires?

    So you believe a guy can go from a 125 gpm 100 psi tip to a 60 gpm 100 psi tip and not feel a huge difference in reaction?

    Did fire departments fight fires before flow meters? Are they still fighting fires without flow meters susccessfully? How many fires did FDNY fight using a flow meter last week in support of a handline? ZERO. how about DC? ZERO, LA CITY? ZERO. HOUSTON? ZERO. THERE ARE MORE NOT USING THEM THAN USING THEM.

    So your nozzle is UL listed for which foams? Which eductors? And under what circumstances? I bet there is more non-UL foam in use and non-UL eductors and nozzles than UL.

    Better yet don't have the salesman bring his wears, if the stuff is nay good you should be able to the conclusion on yor own with out all the snake oil gadgets proviong the point and making the other look bad. It is surprising how the square salesman leaves and things don't work like that again, isn't it?

    Yeah he hooked his hose to a 2 1/2" discharge and yours to the 2 inch crosslay plumbing. His nozzle works at 50 psi and yours at 100 psi. His flowed more. I wonder why. He brought 2 1/2" hose labeled 1 3/4" and you used what you owned a true 1 3/4" line. He flow tested at 100 feet something you never do at a fire. And on and on and on. His flow meter is calibrated at 300 gpm so when yours was flowing 150 gpm it was only off by 25%. De dropped a roll of dimes through his flush it wouldn't fit through yours, but a roll of pennies wouldn't have worked in his or any sand.

    There isn't a nozzle on the market for sale now that offers anything you can't do with nozzles you probably already own. Oh that is right, I don't sell nozzles. LOL Smoke and mirrors. If they won't properly pump what you have now they won't properly pump the new hose and nozzle either.

  17. #17
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    Spells like LHS, too. "ridiculous"
    Thinks FDNY doesn't run any more fire than anyone else as well.

    I would recommend keeping it as simple as possible, perhaps using automatic nozzles on preconnects at a common pressure.

    DC uses 115+/- gpm 1 1/2" lines, but it generally has four or more in the building within a couple of minutes of alarm.

    If you really like 1 1/2" hose, I suggest using it as the first 50'-100' behind the nozzle, and then using a larger diameter hose for the rest of the line.

    Assuming you generally use preconnects:

    At 210 psi pdp
    150' 1.5" 100psi auto = 175 gpm
    250' (100' 1.5", 150' 1.75") 100psi auto = 160 gpm
    400' 1.75" 100psi auto = 148 gpm
    250' 2" 50psi nozzle = 327 gpm

    I used the friction loss values of:
    1.5" = 24psi at 100 gpm
    1.75" = 12.5psi at 100 gpm
    2" = 6 psi at 100 gpm

    Those lengths have proven adequate around here, may be totally off for you.

    We also have the ability to break the nozzle down and extend the line, done fairly often. Makes laying out, securing a hydrant, and extending a long line possible with minimum staffing (hydrant man brings rack), rest of crew stretches 400'.

    Even if you add 2 100' 1.75" extensions, you're still well above 95gpm, and can always call for more pressure. (at 278 pdp you get 150 gpm)

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    KEA It's the duck alright. Who else has a lot to say and can be a great instructor if he would just stop being such a --------hole. Come on Larry.

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    Larry:
    /Oh that's right yo're sellin something, trying to make a case for yor nozzle./

    I have in no way made any attempt to promote or sell our product on this forum. Your insinuation of otherwise is expected.

    /Friction loss doesn't change, the Fire Calc is right./

    FL Doesnt change? Testing with FDNY proved otherwise. New hose versus two year old hose had 10-20psi more loss per section. Delaminated hose in Albuqurque showed their FL was higher than the book says. If you choose to bet your life on your position go for it, its your life and I will defend your right to lose it

    /Far cry off huh? is 60 gpm flowing through 100 feet of 1 3/4" hose 6 psi or isn't it?/

    According to your calcualator it is. Is that what it is for all hose new and old? I think not. Besides, that was not my point.

    /I've posted my source, you quote a non-fixed flow nozzle to make your case to sell a nozzle, so put up or shut up!/

    Are you now saying that it DOES matter what type of nozzle the water is coming out of? Are you now agreeing that an automatic could very well be flowing less than we think? Like I said, I'm not trying to sell our product in this or any other discussion. I simply beg people to TEST their flows so they know the truth.


    /Yeah you've seen non-Maurauders and non-fixed and non-selecto flow style nozzles. But that isn't what he was talking about now was it?/

    No it was not, but you are wrong to imply I havnt seen these types also have low flow. In most cases these types work fine but if the hose has become delaminated you may very well get less flow. Should you notice it yes. Is this a nozzle problem, NO. Never said it was.


    /And you've seen this happen with fixed flow or selecto flow or turbo jet nozzles?/

    Yes I have, just like I stated.

    /So bad hose didn't change stream quality?/

    Bad hose? I thought you said FL doesnt change. If it doesnt change then why would hose make a difference?

    /My position on FL is quite simple, I posted the worst case published losses not the dream world 1 34" crap you all been posting with 1 3/4" hose that is really 2 1/4" in diameter, truth in advertising, certainly you've heard about it?/

    You bet we have, thats why we undersell and overdeliver! Please post your facts to support you claim that 1 3/4" hose is really 2 1/4".

    /If yo do an NFPA 1901 acceptance test yo won't be getting any suprises out of yor fire truck plumbing either./

    Couldnt agree with you more.

    / But of corse with your so called 300 gpm handline nozzle you create problems FL wise out of the crosslays./

    So our 300-gpm nozzles would present different problems in FL than other manufactures 300-gpm nozzles?

    /So why don't you take a few nozzle manufacturers to court?/

    For what? Like I have posted in the past, the MFG tells people they need to service there nozzles. The fact that they dont and then dont flow what they expect is their own fault not the nozzle mfg.....provided they tell there customers what is required... and I believe all of them do.

    /Tell us what 3rd party testing agencies are on the take from the nozzle guys./

    I have no idea and could care less. Besides, who made such a claim?

    /I say you are all hot air./

    Boy if thats not the pot calling the kettle black

    The fire is not going to care if yo are off by 50 gpm or 25 psi, is it?

    WRONG! an additional 50-gpm can mean a lot to a fire. 25-psi? PDP or NP?

    /So who using 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" hose is not putting their fires out?/

    They all go out if you leave them alone, come on Larry, you know that

    /Did fire departments fight fires before flow meters? Are they still fighting fires without flow meters susccessfully? How many fires did FDNY fight using a flow meter last week in support of a handline? ZERO./

    Wow, are you now going to use FDNY to try to support your position against flowmeters?

    I dont like fighting fires with them either, but I do like to use them to establish a known PDP for a given flow. I think FDNY is also of the same opinion considering they are retrofitting every pumper with updated Fire Research flowmeters.

    I know some of the crews we spoke to use them and others do not.

    /LA CITY? ZERO. HOUSTON? ZERO. THERE ARE MORE NOT USING THEM THAN USING THEM./

    That doesnt mean they have no value Larry.

    /So your nozzle is UL listed for which foams?/

    I made no mention of our nozzle and will not because the Web team has rules against it and I do my best to comply with those rules.

    Larry, I dont know what it is in your life that causes you to come across with such an attitude but I hope in time you find a cure. I think you have some good knowledge that can help many people but to continue with your bashing and acuasations only discredits you.

    Before you post Larry, NO I do not have a guilt complex. I sleep very well at night knowing I have made a difference, even if it is a small difference.

    God Bless Larry.
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

  20. #20
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    //FL Doesnt change? Testing with FDNY proved otherwise. New hose versus two year old hose had 10-20psi more loss per section.

    And that is universal to every FD in the country? So tell us they threw away all of their hose or boosted pump pressures 40 psi department wide. What happened?

    //Delaminated hose in Albuqurque showed their FL was higher than the book says.

    And the friction loss before delamination was? And this in response to the guys holding the line couldn't tell the difference? FDNY loses 60 psi EP on a 300 foot line so no more 184 gpm at 50 psi, they got 144 gpm at 30 psi and couldn't tell? Come on, they lost 50% of their reach and a bunch of reaction.

    /Far cry off huh? is 60 gpm flowing through 100 feet of 1 3/4" hose 6 psi or isn't it?/

    //Is that what it is for all hose new and old?

    It might vary to 3 and as high as 9 psi. So on a 200 foot line you'd either flow 44 gpm or 76 gpm. Would the fire care? Is that going to make any difference?

    //Are you now saying that it DOES matter what type of nozzle the water is coming out
    of?

    You said the figures I posted were wrong. Prove it. I told youthe formula and the nozzle. SO, post some facts!

    // Are you now agreeing that an automatic could very well be flowing less than we think?

    Not at all. Which nozzles don't flow as advertised? Have lied to NFPA? Which ones?

    //I simply beg people to TEST their flows so they know the truth.

    So save us some time. Which nozzles when pumped for 125 gpm only flow 60 gpm and the nozzleman can't tell, the streams don't break up. Which ones. No you are hanging a bunch of ifs. If you don't test you ladder it will break. If yo never use your nozzle will it fail? If you use your nozzle a lot it might fail. Tell us, you supposedly done all this research, so if I grab an Elkhart Selectoflo nozzle it is going to flow X gpm less on average and with X psi overage or underage. What is that amount? List all the nozzles. Try posting some facts. IF FDNY 's hose is so bad, what did they do. If the answer is nothing it must not be a problem.

    Have you got NFPA to post a TIA on all this hose and all these nozzles? If not why not.

    //No it was not, but you are wrong to imply I havnt seen these types also have low flow.

    Ok, where did yo do a Turbo Jet that the nozzleman could not tell the nozzle was screwed up?

    ///In most cases these types work fine

    So in most cases the nozzles are fine.

    // but if the hose has become delaminated you may very well get less flow.

    So if you use a non-laminted fire hose...one with a rubber liner non glued rigged plastic like Angus, some Snaptite, some National, some AR, some Key, some Imperial etc, you don't have a problem now do you?

    // Should you notice it yes.

    So a nozzleman expects 125 and 62 pounds reaction and gets 16 psi and 60 gpm, he'd know would't he?

    /And you've seen this happen with fixed flow or selecto flow or turbo jet nozzles?/

    //Yes I have, just like I stated.

    YOu have a fixed opening, unless yourun over the nozzle, drag it or put something in the stream...all of which you'd notice when you used it, then the nozzle has to flow its rated flow right?


    //Bad hose? I thought you said FL doesnt change. If it doesnt change then why would hose make a difference?

    A delaminated liner is not increased frictionloss it is an obstruction, like a rock or a twig would be.

    a 200 gpm NFPA 1901 cross lay will have a challenge flowing 300 gpm.

    //For what? Like I have posted in the past, the MFG tells people they need to service there nozzles. The fact that they dont and then dont flow what they expect is their own fault not the nozzle mfg.....provided they tell there customers what is required... and I believe all of them do.

    So if you read the instructions, understand the instructions and follow the instructions you don't need a nozzle salesman coming into town to change your nozzles because the nozzles you already have does exactly what it is suppose to do. So pump the right pressure, set the nozzle on the right flow, mate the nozzle to the appropriate hose size and it works, doesn't it?

    //I have no idea and could care less. Besides, who made such a claim?

    Gee, all these nozzles all over the coutry that don't work, all this hose that comes apart, all this plumbing with incredible friction loss, etc, etc. Remember any of that? So you are saying it is almost always operator error aren't you?

    //WRONG! an additional 50-gpm can mean a lot to a fire. 25-psi? PDP or NP?

    Oh I see, so why doesn't NFPA set the magic number? Everyone according to Fornell is flowing 150 gpm or less. Now if Washington DC can do the job with 125ish or 104 gpm, then why can't FDNY? Chicago wouldn't use a 2 1/2 unless t had a 1 1/4 inch tip nor would LA city, so why can FDNY get away with 1 1/8 inch tips and so much less flow? Because maybe it just doesn't matter as much as you all state.

    /They all go out if you leave them alone,

    Oh so Washington DC leaves them alone eh?

    //Wow, are you now going to use FDNY to try to support your position against flowmeters?

    Seems to me you said I don't like flow meter.

    //I dont like fighting fires with them either, but I do like to use them to establish a known PDP for a given flow.

    Oh tha can't work, you said so yourself. 10 to 20 psi difference in the hose, engine rpms are never the same because of fuel, clogged filters, etc according to another on this forum, nozzles get clogged and aren't taken care of properly, you never use the same exact hose, nozzle or discharge, temperature. You can't have it both ways. I don't believe the sky is falling, but you guys selling nozzles have to make the customer believe it. 150 psi is close enough for most FD's in the US.

    //I think FDNY is also of the same opinion considering they are retrofitting every pumper with updated Fire Research flowmeters.

    Gee, how did they fight fire before that? How do they set a flow when a dry line is advanced? Will the nozzleman leave the nozzle open long enough to set the flow? How will the EO know when the nozzle is fully open when he throttles up? Soon as the Ep is adjusted, another line is put into use, a hydrant connected the whole thing changes. They'll be using the pressure gauge more than the meter. There are hundreds of almost working flow meters if you look around a few panels. You'll also see big time bills for parts too.

    //I know some of the crews we spoke to use them and others do not.

    Great buy them and not use them, I don't think they see a real compelling need, do they?

    /LA CITY? ZERO. HOUSTON? ZERO. THERE ARE MORE NOT USING THEM THAN USING THEM./

    //That doesnt mean they have no value .

    Oh, so what is the value of the meter in a department where all the fires go out jst fine?

    //I made no mention of our nozzle and will not because the Web team has rules against it and I do my best to comply with those rules.

    Uh huh.

    So follow the instructions and the nozzles all work just fine, the hose flows what it is supposed to flow, so the reason to change is???????

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