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  1. #1
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    Default Straight stream/ Fog Nozzles????????

    My department is considering changing over to straight stream nozzles for structure fires.
    We use all TFT fog nozzles now.
    What is the pro's and con's for both.

  2. #2
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    Either will work fine. You loose flexibility with a SB. You hydraulics better be right on with a SB or you'll have way too much NR with a SB or a lousy stream...versus an automtic that one pressure can pretty much do all. No need to change tips witin the flow range of your autos but you better carry a bunch to do the same job with SBs. Let me, kinking is one new issue you could have with SBs. Be careful about mixing SBs and auto off the same rig.

  3. #3
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    "straight stream"??

    Isn't a straight stream a fog nozzle turned all the way to the right?

    I'm not being a pain here, but, let's not confuse an already touchy issue on these boards.

    My department likes and uses solid bores. That doesn't make them right or wrong. I prefer them and would ALWAYS choose them for an interior, structural attack.

    Others will say otherwise and I accept their opinions. Let's keep it civil.

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    I am with E229lt. I love my smoothbore. When it comes down to it and the truck has to drag off another line, i want that SB. Lower pressures works my guys less and i can get more GPM inside. I like the fact the steam maker factor is gone as well if im not on the nozzle with the fog nozzle not being inside. The SB also creates less steam which in turn makes for better visibitiy.
    54041738

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    Our department recently changed to using the Solid Bore's as our standard interior line. At first there was a lot of whining and resistance to change. Now that I have used them on a few fires, I prefer them to the fog's. It makes the line much more manueverable and puts a lot of water on the fire. The fogs have their advantages as well but most of the time I prefer the Smooth Bore.
    Firefighter/Paramedic Ron Sanders
    Midvale Fire Department
    Medic Ambulance 22 - A Platoon

    Firefighters, Walking where the Devil Danced!

    This is simply my opinion and does not represent the opinion or view of my employer(s) or any department/agency to which I belong.

    Personal Website: http://RonSanders.Biz Check it Out!

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    SB GET MY VOTE BUT IT WOULD BE WORTH YOUR TIME TO PRACTICE,PRACTICE, PRACTICE UNTIL EVRYONE IS USED TO THEM INCLUDING TO ENGINEERS.
    Firefighter/NREMT-P/Public Safety Diver
    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

  7. #7
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    "It has been scientifically proven in several independent research studies that fine water droplets from combination or fog nozzles WILL cool gases in the overhead far more effectively than a straight stream application.

    The US Navy tests clearly demonstrated this fact under strict scientific monitoring".
    http://www.firetactics.com/GAS-COOLING.htm

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    Akron makes a combination nozzle called Akron assault. It's sort of a 3 in 1 type. It has a fog nozzle that unscrews down to a 15/16 smooth bore. You can also unscew the fog nozzle and add on more hose if you need it without having to shut down the line at the pump panel, you just close the bale. My dept. has used this type nozzle for a couple of years with good success. We don't use the smooth bore much, but it's available if we need it

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    While I personally prefer a smoothbore nozzle to a combination fog on structural fires, there are some times when one or the other is not adequate.
    1. If you use or intend to use Compressed Air Class A foam testing has indicated that a smooth bore nozzle works better with this technology. Ask Hale Pump and Dominic Coletti for the research.
    2. In high rise structures and when working on standpipe systems, where the pressure is limited to 100 psi at the outlet because of NFPA 14, a combination fog will not work very well. This may be particularly true with automatic fogs like TFT.
    3. There is limited capability to provide for hydraulic ventilation with a smooth bore.
    4. Streams from a smooth bore nozzle tend to conduct electricity back to the nozzle more than a fog set on a fog pattern.
    5. Gallon per gallon a smooth bore will produce less nozzle reaction.
    So what is the answer? You may as well ask what is the true color of a fire truck. What I prefer is to have both, particularly in a high rise pack so that the best of both worlds are available when you need it.
    Just my opinion and you know what they say about them.

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    Our department uses Akron Assaults with Saber shutoffs. Which is an intergrated smooth bore into the shutoff. They have worked fantastic. The stream quality on the Assault actually is just as good as a smooth bore. They are well worth a look at. An automatic nozzle cannot match the performance of this nozzle.

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    Hi,
    My house doesn't get enough structure fires in a year to really give you an honest opinion under fire conditions. But I thought I would throw out something for the discussion. Newer TFT's with the emergency low pressure setting (50 PSI) can be used in combo with SB's according to TFT. I have tried them in training but not in regular fire conditions. has anyone else? They also work great in this mode for foam, allowing up to 450 ft. from eductor to nozzle with 1 3/4" hose, as opposed to 150 ft. for a 100psi fog nozzle.

    John C
    HJFD

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    If you're serious about changing over either way, check out the new Akron Saberjet nozzle. It's a SB within a Fog, yes both in one not a straight stream fog tip. With a range on SB tips 3/4-1" availabel. The only concern maybe that th fog flow is 135 gpm max. but the SB flows the constants. 15/16"=183gpm. They can flow both SB and Fog at the same time, or either one independantly! Sounds like the best of both worlds, SB punch with fog for ventilation!
    check it out at www.akronbrass.com
    By the way I'm no salesman and I have yet to test this product (coming soon) but the concept is great!

    This is the only opinion to have, if you're me! If not, get your own , this ones mine!
    Lt.ACM

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    jpchev

    //They also work great in this mode for foam, allowing up to 450 ft. from eductor to nozzle with 1 3/4" hose, as opposed to 150 ft. for a 100psi fog nozzle.//

    9 lengths of 1 3/4 from a foam eductor????
    You should either re-read the spec sheet or post it here so we can tear it apart.

  14. #14
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    The Akron Saberjet nozzle is the ultimate CAFS tip.

  15. #15
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    All of these are valid points..alas, my opinion is that the combination nozzel wins the "best all around" class. Yes, the smooth bore tip requires less pressure. Are you getting the same protection? I dont believe you are. Yes, the smooth bore tip works as well, maybe a little better with foam. Are you getting the same protection? I dont believe you are. Yes, the smooth bore tip works better for high rise from a pressure and debris standpoint..But, Are you getting the added protection that you receive from a combination nozzel. Last but not least, I dont believe you are. Good luck in your quest. Stay Safe All!

  16. #16
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    it is my understanding (and i could be wrong about this that there is a difference between a solid bore and a TFT with a closed pattern)

    a solid bore nozzle creates a solid stream of water and a TFT creates some sort of broken pattern... a pattern of droplets... even if you adjust it to the tightest pattern, it is still not a solid stream...

    that's the way i understand it anyway



    ...ok, nevermind... i thought someone asked about this but they didn't. I'll *finish* my coffee before replying next time
    null

    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: coda0092 ]

  17. #17
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    coda you are correct. Droplets of water absorb a greater amount of stream that a solid stream can.
    It seems the main argument for SB nozzles is the pressure used. What happens with SB in a flashover situation?? Can you cool down an environment for escape? Don't you have to directly hit the seat of the fire with a smooth bore? What if fire conditions don't allow this?
    I still vote for the TFT but there seems to be enough for SB for me to look into this further - as no one should ever make a decision on safety without fully investigating it.

  18. #18
    blackb16
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    No such thing as a solid stream once you get beyond 12 inches of the nozzle.

  19. #19
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    Fog nozzles are good for only three things in firefighting as far as I am concerned:
    1. Quick ventilation
    2. Indirect defensive attack
    3. Pushing fire to protect egress/escape ways
    Otherwise fog nozzles will get you hurt quicker than all the flashovers and backdrafts put together. Misapplied they will doom salvagable victims and burn unsuspecting firefighters. Get rocks or trash in line and it may be fatal. I have experienced, and have the scars to prove it, what two fog nozzles opposed to each other will do, it will move a wall of fire on the person with the less pressure or hose diameter. Any true benefit outside of what I mentioned earlier can be obtained by a straight stream used in an indirect attack. More overhaul will be needed but it is safer. Plus if done correctly thermal imbalance should be minimal compared to fog or direct attack. I might have ONE line with a combo nozzle for those special situations a fog is needed, otherwise, leave them off. In this era of safety (no complaints mind you) I am slightly suprised they are even available.

  20. #20
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    Paul Grimwoods post provides an opinion and a link to some pretty impressive backup information. When debating it is easy to lose patience with people who won't "just accept" your own opinion no matter how much hard won the experience you believe lies behind it. I know in my nearly thirty years fighting fires that I still have much to learn.
    I have found to my cost that not all scientific theory pans out in fact and that respected and experienced colleagues can somtimes be wrong as well. We are all here to learn from each other. Let us show respect for each others opinion but also provide a means for others to follow up on hard facts on the opinions we hold. Respects to you Paul for doing this, and to those others who let the web provide the means for us to see it.

    Jim Maclean
    Station Officer
    New Zealand
    Jim Maclean. IACOJ NZ branch

  21. #21
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    I might have ONE line with a combo nozzle for those special situations a fog is needed, otherwise, leave them off.

    Which begs the question, how do you know when pulling the line if you'll encounter one of the special situations?

    With the exception of passing a mouse (or other debris you may find in, oh, an unmaintained standpipe and not your typical fire pumper) a combo nozzle can do the one thing a solid bore can do -- direct a stream a long distance, plus everything a fog can do when appropriate.

    I can't wait to get my hands on a SabreJet as it seems like a great idea. 75psi np with a 7/8" tip gives you flow ranges from 95gm up to 280? I think. Should handle most fires and situations. CAFS should be great, and using the smoothbore to supplement the straight stream gives you incredible flows for a handline, though you might need 2" to feed it!

    Tactical misuse of a fog is a training or command & control, not a technology, issue.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  22. #22
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    Regarding the smoothbore vs. fog nozzle. First some terminology: A smoothbore nozzle creates a solid stream pattern, that is an unbroken stream of water. Fog nozzles create a broken stream of water, different patterns of different sized drops of water. Fog nozzles can be adjusted from a wide fog stream to a very tight stream, called a straight stream. A straight fog stream is NOT a solid stream.

    To snorklesquad: Smoothbore nozzles require lower nozzle pressures to deliver higher gpms, with the added bonus of lower nozzle reactions. But, due to higher friction loss of the higher gpm flow, engine pressures of smoothbore and fog streams on most attack lines are similar.

    To Paul Grimwood: First, you are correct, a fog/combination stream will cool the overhead better-by upsetting the thermal balance and driving the heat down on firefighters and civililan victims. People will argue this will prevent flashover. Guess what else prevents flashover? Putting the fire out. A solid stream delivered to the seat of the fire does that faster than any "combination attack" *note combination attack is a nice book technique, but we all know that there are things we learned in the fire academy that we found better ways to do in the 'real world'. Also, briefly directing a solid stream to the ceiling when you notice pre flashover signs will sufficiently cool that atmosphere to prevent flashover without steaming your whole crew.

    Furthermore, its interesting you provided a link to a navy study, since fog nozzles where first designed to fight fires in shipholds, where no fire fighters or civilians were located. The idea was to pack the entire hold with steam, and sufficate the fire. Packing an entire house with steam is not such a good idea. Fog nozzles where adapted to structural fire fighting before SCBA, turnout gear and smoke detectors. Meaning there were no fire fighters inside, no viable rescues to be made, and attacks were made from the outside, just like a ship hold.

    But today, fire fighters enter burning structures and pull out victims regularly (yesterdays rescue in Queens good example, and I am sure that attack was made with a smooth bore nozzle to keep from steaming those civilians to death)

    If you want some really good reading on this subject from a real expert who has made his living fighting fires inside structures and not shipholds, read Andy Fredericks articles in Fire Engineering titled Tiny Drops of Water Revisited.

    To Jones 928: About your comment on protection. I would take it you are referring to the 'protection of a wide fog stream'. There is one better form of protection - putting the fire out, which can best be accomplished by putting copious amounts of water on the seat of the fire. That is best accomplished with a smooth bore nozzle.

    To all: I beleive we get by with using fog nozzles in todays fire service for one reason-our fires are generally smaller, the common one room contents fire. Smoke detectors, enhanced 911 and faster rigs get us to fires faster and we fight them smaller. But occasionally when faced with heavy fire conditions, if you will try a smooth bore nozzle, you will find it very accomodating. Your line is more manueverable (due to lower nozzle pressure)your nozzle reaction is lower, and you deliver more water to the seat of the fire. What else could you want?

  23. #23
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    Thanks to Akron I will no longer have to hear about departments bickering weather the smooth bore is better than a Fog or weather those fog people will sacrifice the protection that a fog provides. I will attest that The Akron Saberjet is the ticket. I have used it While on internship this summer with a very large city. It worked great in all aspects, we were flowing a very large amount of water when we wanted to with on man on the line and you could still use a fog shield or approaching or for protection. It shot foam great, worked well on Lpg,Does car fires as well as structures. It is somthing every one must try
    let me know if im not clear

    pat

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    PatDunn: Just curious:
    What City were you doing an internship with?

    Must have been a pretty busy one. You say you faugth LPG fires, car fires and structure fires. Even got some foam experience in. Way to go.
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

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    one of you folks who have used the new akron saberjet nozzle, please describe the operation of it...how do you switch between the three modes and shut off.

    BTW my dept uses the Akron Assault as oz said. I would bet 99% of the time we use something other than the crosslays, our discharge pressure is off by a significant amount. In fact, since our SOPs provide for 30 psi of FL per 100' of 1 1/2" line flowing 125 gpm, I'll bet 100% of the time our PDPs are off by a significant amount. However, that being said, the fires still go out. Of the factors that affect your department's ability to fight fire, nozzle selection is probably less than 1% of the equation.

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