St. Louis<br />-- 30 Stations<br />-- 30 Quints -- 2000gpm/400gwt/75' Aerial/900' 4"<br />-- 4 Quint "Hook & Ladders" which IIRC are 2 -- 125' Ladders and 2 Towers<br />-- 2 Heavy Rescues<br />-- Minimum manning of 4
Also as I recall, 1st Quint is an Engine, 2nd Quint goes to Truck, 3rd Quint goes to Engine, 4th Quint goes to Truck.
The H&Ls almost always do truck, as they are housed with an Engine (Quint) company.
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01-26-2002, 06:39 PM #21IACOJ Canine Officer
01-26-2002, 09:23 PM #22
Correct you are Dalmation. The six-member Rescue Companies do truck work also.
I'll also have to agree with an earlier post, it doesn't matter how the truckies get to the fire, ladder, rescue, tanker, or taxi, get the truck work done!!! It's definately a lost art in most of America.
02-07-2002, 01:49 AM #23
- Join Date
- Feb 2001
truck work is losing ground and fast. everyone wants to run for the knob, few people take the time to learn truck ops, they want to ride the truck so they can say they came on that, but if the engine wasnt staffed they would jump on that, so they can have the knob.
If quints ran as trucks, and operated as truck then they could be called trucks but they dont i have never seen it. they are in fact an engine with an elevated master stream that is all. but unfortunatly if a fire is working all the chief sometimes cares about is water, because that is the only thing he can see from the outside, maybe if the engines as the inside crew will continuasly ask for more ventiltion they would get the point. we need to remember to let them know what is going down, and that we need ventilation, because they cant see how bad it is inside. maybe this will help.
No one wants to do S&R because they have gotten into the habit of not finding people, so it isnt exciting, they want the garunteed action.
I perfer truck work, i have grown out of engine work and dont care for it anymore, no one else likes to ride the truck so i dont have to fight over hooks, like the rest are fighting over hose, the truckies at our house are damn good to, at least the salty ones, we rolled a commercail fire in a resturant right on the engines bumper, we finished the primary before they made it to the front door. we were understaffed so we only had an inside crew so after that we went to the roof. loved every minute of it.
but it is a lost art, actually aggresive firefighting alltogether is losing ground, before long we will be doing car seat checks and not training at all, but that is just me I am cynical. I question the priorities of some departments at times.
02-07-2002, 07:32 AM #24
If quints ran as trucks, and operated as truck then they could be called trucks but they dont i have never seen it.
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
How many places have you looked.
02-07-2002, 05:18 PM #25
- Join Date
- May 1999
- Here, There, Everywhere
There are some interesting experinces out there regarding Truck work...and I am glad to see I am not the only one who is concerned with the support functions traditionally provided by the Truck.
I think there is more to it than just Staffing or run numbers. I think much of the confusion over whether or not a dept. should aquire a quint results from a lack of Strategic goals and parameters.
Many depts. including my own have bought quints and disbanded Truck companies just because they think it will provide abilites and options not presently found on the fire ground. However many departments (including my own) that I have seen buy the Quints without really considering how they will fit in to their operations "strategicly".
Some departments have Engine companies that are equiped with generators, brooms & shovels, salvage equipment, extrication tools, large ground ladders, water rescue equipement, ropes, fans, hooks and other equipment that typicaly would be found on a truck. These engines will cost typically in excess of $300,000 and sometimes over $425,000!
All of this equipment is on a rig that has typical reponses of car fires, Auto alarms, car fires EMS and car accidents. 75% of the equipment is never used on any of these. However the cost of purchasing, maintaining and bringing it along on every call is still incured.
These rather large apparatus are expensive to run (added wieght leads to more wear on brakes and suspension & higher fuel consumption, etc.)
If instead they would get simple $250,000 engines with no frills they could easily afford a nice truck and all that extra support equipment would repond on the alarms on a rig with firefighters that are profiecent in the skills and the craft of Truck Company operations. One only has to look at the skills and techiniques that must be masterd by a Truck Company to realize that there are very few Quint companies that can trully master and maintain proficenices on all Engine and Truck Skills!
A jack of all trades and a Master of NONE!
Some communites do not require a truck and a quint would be a great improvement...however a mid size or larger department that desires to provide an "Urban level response" should instead of weakening Truck companies should rather look at providing quints to add to engine compaines tools.
It is all in how it fits in to your operations. Before you buy it ask how many times did we need it and how would it work in practice.
Thats all I have for now.
Two cents from a fireman.
02-07-2002, 06:42 PM #26
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
...Many depts. including my own have bought quints and disbanded Truck companies just because they think it will provide abilites and options not presently found on the fire ground.
So your chiefs rise through the ranks and learn the job are promoted and their goal when they become chief is to disband companies and lay people off? You are so full of beans. Could it be government has to meet a budget and whether the chief likes it or not something is going to be closed down? So he has a choice to do nothing, do something. The something is buy a swiss army knife to have some of the best capabilities and his fully certified firefighter 1 and 2 will be able to figure out how to do the tasks assigned or pretend he can get along without what is closed down? No your chiefs don' want to close down companies. They simply bought equipmen that can be used to accomplish the goals and missions that will fit into a strategic plan as long as the people are up to the task. Are your professional firefighters up to the task?
...Some departments have Engine companies that are equiped with generators, brooms & shovels, salvage equipment, extrication tools, large ground ladders, water rescue equipement, ropes, fans, hooks and other equipment that typicaly would be found on a truck.
The word SOME should become THE MAJORITY. Most of that equipment is the norm in the US fire service.
.... These engines will cost typically in excess of $300,000 and sometimes over $425,000!
Or as little as $150K equipped.
....These rather large apparatus are expensive to run (added wieght leads to more wear on brakes and suspension & higher fuel consumption, etc.)
Bull! Nothing listed will increase the size of the fire truck. The above is calculated in the NFPA equipment weight compliment. Nothing is out of the norm weight wise. Brakes were calculated to the size of the load. Nothing changed brakes or suspension in your week example. Fuel onsumption will not change in any measureable way with 1000 pounds of stuff (being generous here) on the rig.
...If instead they would get simple $250,000 engines with no frills
Heck, no frills is $108,000. Why are you wasting so much money?
....they could easily afford a nice truck
Oh and run it on every stinking call instead of carrying a broom on every engine. Yeah there's a great idea. That has to cost less than buying the same stuff per rig times whatever number. One rig set up ideally or 10 that can do anything. 10 wins. For $13k I can buy lots of the list you provided versus a $350,000 ladder truck that can only make one call at a time. Him you just icreased the number of apparatus that does increase all the items you said adding equipment to a pumper adds.
....and all that extra support equipment would repond on the alarms on a rig with firefighters that are profiecent in the skills and the craft of Truck Company operations.
Dang you cut a few thousand off a pumper and bought enough full time guys to staff a ladder for 24/7? You are good! I demand to see the math!!!!!
So you are telling us that in your deparment you have two types of firefighters engine guys and ladder guys. The ladder guys are not smart enough to know how to use a truck tool and visa versa? What version of firefighter 1 and 2 do you certify to? Is their a ladder only and a engine only version of FF1 and II?
So it ain't the rig it is the employees? So let's look at your extensive list. So engine guys can't figure out how to start the really hard generator? The brooms & shovels are beyond them? Salvage equipment now that has to be hard. Extrication tools, they'd never figure those out? Large ground ladders, yeah too hard not like their medium and small ladders. Water rescue equipement, can't expect a guy getting paid to be a firefighter to know how to use his equipment especially water rescue gear, you certainly wouldn't want the clsest company to have what it needs to save a life, don't your citizens know they have to wait for a ladder truck to get any service at all? Ropes, yeah that knot stuff is tough. Fans, which as in in and which way is out, too hard I guess? Hooks, yeah they'll just hurt themselves or lose them.
Take a look around sport. Firefighters are doing all these things you say is impossible every stinking day and they aren't whinning about the job either or their chiefs. NO I in TEAM.
... One only has to look at the skills and techiniques that must be masterd by a Truck Company to realize that there are very few Quint companies that can trully master and maintain proficenices on all Engine and Truck Skills!
So no volunteer fire department in earth can possibly operate if they can only be competent in engines or trucks or rescues. Seeing as how almost all are taught to be jacks of all trades. In fact you really can't be a good volunteer ladder truck or pumper member either. WHy? Too much of your pee brain is full being a cop, mail man, auto mechanic, whatever it is you do for a living You couldn't possibly learn to be a firefighter too. In fact you couldn't be a good parent, baseball coach, or excellent wood worker either. It is too hard to know more than one skill. You dam sure couldn't own and operate your own plane, boat, etc. You'd never get a dear, or be able to survive out doors over night.
No department using quints could possibly be competent. Of course after a few chats the Richmond guys came out of the wood work and said they do just fine in direct contrast to the ex richmond quint critic who wants his job back now after quitting.
BULL!!!!! IS this just a paid thing??? Only paid guys can't figure out quints?? Thousands of quints are working just fine everyday. Thousands of calls arehandled every day with cross trained non-specialist truckees and engine and rescue crews.
A few facts for you. Guess what? Most fire departments don't really fight fires all the time. Most of time the trucks do other stuff. So why wouldn't you want do every thing rigs be that quints or engines packing other tools? Let me guess yo can't name 5 multiple station FD's in the US that have a ladder truck in every station? If the ladder truck is so important there would have to be one in every station to do the job. SO either they are not essential or crews have figured out how to work just fine without them.
FDNY fights lots of fires, they are the exception to the rule but only 7% of their calls are structure fires. That means 93% of the time the ladder is just for looks. Less than 1% of their structure fires require committing the entire response. Only 10% of those calls require additional alarms. Less than 1/2 of one percent of their fires require additional alarms.
So do you build a FD on 7% of your calls to the exclusion of 93% of the job because yo might spend more for gas, brakes and an axle? Of do you do the whole job?
...A jack of all trades and a Master of NONE!
Either that or the guys you work with are just really slow, bottom of the bucket guys who can't do squat. Raise your hiring standards.
The reality is the fire service is cross trained. Either adapt or get out of the way of someone who will!
Face it pumps on fire trucks are not the problem. Firefighters who won't learn new tricks are!
02-07-2002, 07:58 PM #27
- Join Date
- Jul 1999
- Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
As far as quints not being purchased to cut staffing....let me respond to you using your words. BULL!!
The career FD I am a member of lost 3 positions when the quint was put into service. The quint is staffed with 3 FF and then cross staffed with 2 off from a BLS ambulance. So we lost an engine and a truck and gained a quint with 3 FF and an ambulance with 2 FF. Tell me how that doesn't equal staffing being lost?
I am sure you will tell me how I am wrong, but these quite simply are the facts.
02-07-2002, 08:35 PM #28
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
....As far as quints not being purchased to cut staffing....
Seeing as how I never said the above, but you are attributing it to me. I guess I will respoond.
I see, there are fire chiefs like yours who's career goals are to close companies and layoff guys, like in your case who do not have to live with shrinking budgets who come to work one day and decide to lay off guys and buy a quint even though they didn't have to do live with less. I stand corrected. Thanks for corecting something I didn't say!
02-08-2002, 01:16 AM #29
- Join Date
- Feb 2001
Too many departments see using a quint as being able to save money, and do the job of the engine and the truck with one piece. i am not talking about a large department that went to the entire quint concept. I am talking about a quint sitting in the middle of a traditional FD running engines and trucks around them. that is the position that i have seen quints get misused frequently. all they have to do is pick one job or the other, but most of the time they try to do both with minimal staffing.
02-08-2002, 05:05 PM #30
- Join Date
- Feb 2001
What i am saying is that the quint was purchased to work as a ladder truck. It happens to have a pump and hose, they feel that is they roll onto a car fire they want to be able to put it out, no argument from me on that one. however when they pull on the scene of a structure being the first in ladder following an engine, many time they are told to advance lines, not do truck work.
My complaint is that the combination attack is almost a lost art. I feel that truck work and engine work should be done at the same time, many times i have seen ventilation not be conducted untill after the fire is knocked.
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