Thread: quint-midi

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    Post quint-midi

    OK, here goes, I am a Career FF in Buffalo NY. We have about 850 FFs. In an effort to save money, our brilliant city leaders have proposed going to a quint-midi system of firefighting. The Quint would be staffed with 4 men, and the midi-pumper would have 2. We currently have minimum manning with 4 people on each rig at all times. This is how the city will save money, by cutting 2 men out of the pumper/ladder equation. Can anyone give me more information on the use of this system. We would have to basically start from scratch as far as how we attack fires. Currently we use a fast attack method of firefighting. I appreciate any and all responses.

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    LOOK NORTH MY FRIEND! The City of Rochester has been operating in that system for over ten years now. Give them a call.

    Also, be aware that it may be extremely difficult to adhear to NFPA 1710 under the midi-quint system. I am curious to know if anyone using this deployment model has considered the 1710 issue and what conclusions have you arrived at? Can you meet the standard with this model? How difficult is it to make the legally required 2-in/2-out?

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    From what i understand, Rochester NY is the only major city in the US that is using this concept. It will be basically impossible for us to adhere to 1710 in this situation.

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    Lightbulb

    Denmann, I believe the City of Syracuse might still use the quint-midi concept. The problem is not with the quint-midi concept as much as it's with the way the city will try and save money. When Syracuse first started it years ago the main reason for the smaller unit was to save wear on the full size apparatus. In reality the apparatus can handle the work load if the specifications are done right. The problem then becomes a manpower issue. Is the City of Buffalo going to replace all of the departments' engines and ladders with this concept and now expect 6 firefighters to do the operations of 8 firefighters. Cannot be done unless the department increases their first alarm response. So if the administration truly looks at the cost of replacing the apparatus and training and not just have fewer 6 member companies there is no cost saving. The issue then becomes one of the first arriving officer to make the decision of starting engine company operations or ladder company operations.

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    From what's described here, I don't see why Buffalo would have a problem with meeting NFPA 1710.

    You'd have four man quints. Send four of them and a Chief and you've got the first alarm assignment called for in 1710.

    Look on the web shows 24 stations covering 41 square miles, so response times should be within the 4 minutes first due/8 minutes first alarm 90% of the time easily.

    The midis would probably help make the 90% goal even easier...they can run the medicals, leaving the quints in quarters.

    NFPA 1710 is a numbers game. We've set a standard that'll raise some departments up to it, mostly in growing suburban areas that were already on the cusp of manpower requirements and the growing tax base to afford them.

    Unfortunately, it's a numbers game. For cities like Buffalo that are staffed and equipped over the basic requirements of 1710, it's not hard for a number cruncher to look at stations and call volumes and go, you know we can close half the stations, lay off two-thirds of the department, and still meet the National Standard of NFPA 1710. That's a much bigger problem for people worried about staffing than Quints. Might not be an appropriate standard for Buffalo, but it is the standard.

    Matt
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    The midi also creates problems with fireground supervision. Especially if the midi is first on scene or not responding with their quint. We have had similar accountability problems with our rescues (ambulances). Of course, this is assuming that BFD will operate similar the the RFD and have two firefighters staff the midi.

    Has the department considered the total quint concept such as what St. Louis implemented? It would require significant capital expenditures to procure the apparatus, but then they would have to purchase the midis and quints too. As I recall, St. Louis replaced all of their engines and trucks with quints via a bond election. The result was new apparatus for the department, an increase in pumps and aerials, and a reduction in force which was accomplished through attrition. That RIF is what saved the city money. Any thoughts on this?

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    Another major concern of ours(the firefighters) is the majority of the housing stock in buffalo is 2 1/2 story balloon construction. That couples with the fact that most are 6-10 feet away from the each other is a recipe for disaster when you dont use the fast attack method of firefighting. we are not willing to lose one civilian, or at the worst, one firefighter due to our firefighting procedure being changed. Rochester's career ending injuries have quadrupled since 1985 when they went to a quint-midi concept. How can any firefighter in good conscience accept that????

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    By "fast attack" I'm assuming you mean off the booster tank?

    If your state laws and district profile allow such trucks, St. Louis' 75' Quints carry 500 gallons -- same as your typical city engine. They weigh in at 56,000# on a single axle. Maybe in a rural area with lots of bridge restrictions and lots of long, fast runs that's very heavy. Maybe it's not so heavy in an dense urban environment were companies seldom make emergency response more than a mile or two or three from quarters, and the short distances and lots of intersections mean you rarely build up the high speeds.

    Rochester's "Quadrupling" brings up a couple questions.

    First, you have to ask have we increased or expanded the definition of "career ending" since 1985. For instance, maybe firefighters used to qualify for light duty now are retired. Or maybe injuries people used to buck up and live with now merit retirement.

    Second, does EMS play a role -- yes, you can injure yourself lifting patients or pickup a pathogen. My guess would be EMS injuries should be excluded from an analysis since that's not really Quint-Midi related (unless it's from a two man Midi maybe being understaffed...)

    Third, you have to look at the numbers. Are their statistical anomalies going on here? Did a few major incidents play a role that you can say Quint-Midi didn't affect -- say a collapse while two alarms worth of firefighters were already on scene. Did Rochester experience a high rate in the 60s, a low rate in the 70s, then simply cycle back up in the 80s and 90s?

    Serious firefighter injuries and fatalities fortunately are still few enough that it's difficult to analyze numbers over periods as short as a decade. In 1988, there was 136 LODDs. In 1992, that was down to 75. In 1998, 91 died. Do I think there was material differences in our safety and training over that decade? No. The general trend is downwards, but you could always pick and choose the periods your comparing to maximize differences. (BTW, the single factor on LODDS over the last 20+ years has been fire prevention. LODDs have remained constant on a LODD per Fire basis. Prevent fires, you prevent deaths. All the airpacks, PASS, PBI, RITs, and ICS have meant squat to LODD per Fire rate.)

    Finally, I'd also ask how Rochester's numbers compare to other Northeastern U.S. major cities. Are they that far out of line (and it can't be explained by 1, 2, 3 above?).

    Denmann, I hope I'm not coming off snotty on my posts. You have concerns, that's for sure. Sitting here on the internet 450 miles from Buffalo I can't answer all the question of what's best for Buffalo -- but I can raise some questions you do have to answer locally! Statistics are a dangerous game, and the last thing you want to do is pull out something like Rochester having quadruple the injuries, and have someone else in public (like at the City Council) make you seem foolish by explaining them away as a change in criteria or statistical anamoly not related to quints. Make sure you know and understand your statistics before throwing them around!

    Matt <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
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    Matt, I am not throwing around numbers. These are official numbers done by the rochester local. Let me give you what i mean by fast attack. First pumper in (all 750gals in buffalo) is the attack pumper. Officer, attack-man start take 1 3/4 off crosslay and proceed into building. Hookup man is also involved with laying off the line. First truck arrives. Two man forced entry, two man search and rescue. Second pumper, reverse lay to feed attack pumper, officer and nozzle man take second crosslay off attack pumper and back up first line; driver and hookup go to hydrant and start feed to attack pumper; attack man then heads to fire building to help were needed. Second truck, ventilation, horizontal or vertical., whatever is needed. third pumper, water if needed, if not, manpower to fight fire. FAST team on third truck, and heavy rescue arrives usually with first or second truck and helps with search and rescue. We are very very good at stopping fires. We do it with sheer numbers. Ok, now with a quint midi, first in QM gets there, Quint driver runs pumps, officer and nozzle man take the line. Two midi guys do a forward lay and feed the that leaves one guy for search and rescue, what about 2 in 2 out rule. As the next in arriving companies get there you are contiually losing 25 percent of your manpower. More work, less men. There is no way you can make the type of stops we do now, with the QM system.

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    7tuwer, We dont have any say in how its goint to be implemented. We are a paid department and city hall is trying to run the department from their ivory tower. They are making the SOP's. They are determining the deployment. Our firestops are among the quickest in the nation. They are worried about saving money, that is all. They want to fashion what we do after rochester and they are not willing to spend a penny on any new technology.

    IF IT ISN'T BROKE, WHY TRY TO FIX IT???

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    Here is an article documenting the ridiculous staffing shortages in Houston and how it directly led to the death of a FF. It addresses the problems of "well, just have an extra piece respond."

    <a href="http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2002/houston.html" target="_blank">http://www.firehouse.com/lodd/2002/houston.html</a>

    Here is an article showing how Houston's ISO rating just got better. Staffing cuts that kill firemen and the ISO rating gets better. What is the matter with this picture?

    <a href="http://www.hfd.ci.houston.tx.us/ISOrating.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hfd.ci.houston.tx.us/ISOrating.htm</a>

    Stay Safe

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    IF IT ISN'T BROKE, WHY TRY TO FIX IT???

    Because Buffalo like many northeastern cities has been consistently loosing population for decades, and can't support a fire department staffed at the levels they did in the past?

    Ok, now with a quint midi, first in QM gets there, Quint driver runs pumps, officer and nozzle man take the line. Two midi guys do a forward lay and feed the that leaves one guy for search and rescue, what about 2 in 2 out rule.

    Well, first thing is figure out how to move water efficiently. Dedicating 2 men to water supply doesn't fly in rural areas where we commonly reverse lay two or three thousand feet to draft. City areas with hydrants under a thousand feet apart should rarely need anyone.

    I wouldn't be relying on a Midi to supply your water. Get quints with a Side Stacker or EHL style hosebed. Put in 1000' or so of 5" and an automatic mechanical hydrant valve (Carlin?). Quint stops, two guys get out, hook up hydrant, open hydrant, both get back on board, procede. Arrive on scene, driver clamps supply line, crew stretches the line, driver gets them water, hooks up the LDH, unclamps, we have positive water supply established. At some point along the way once the hydrant valve detected pressure was equal on both sides, it has snapped open from slow fill to full volume.

    Second Quint arrives and goes to truck work (normally).

    Other Quints or Midis as neccessary can reverse lay if water supply needs to be reinforced. Even at that, only a driver is needed to hook up and pump a hydrant.

    Maybe houses with an Engine and a Truck now arrive with fewer men then they do now. Houses with only an Engine will see no difference.

    Let's see:<br />Single engine house, engine on Medical: Fire Attack delayed while awaiting second due station.<br />QM house, midi on Medical: Quint arrives with same manpower that a single engine would have had.

    Engine/Ladder house, engine on Medical: Ladder arrives, Fire Attack delayed while awaiting second due Engine.<br />QM house, midi on Medical: Quint arrives with the same manpower a Ladder would've, but with hose and a pump to make a fire attack.

    Single Engine house, company in quarters: Engine arrives with four FF.<br />QM house, all units quarters: FFs all jump on Quint, arrive with Six FFs.<br />Engine/Ladder house, companies in quarters: Engine and Ladder arrive with Eight FFs.

    Some pickup a couple FFs, some loose. Most of the time, you'll have the same number of FFs assembled within a minute or two of current levels.

    You can jump up and down and try to stop them. What's the worse that'll happen? They'll leave you with the current equipment and minimum manning per company...just close companies until they achieve the manpower levels they've decided to pay for and leave your tactics out of date and irrelevant anyways? Would fast attack still be an option if half the stations closed? Or you can work with them realizing attrition will happen, and explain what capital items you need to effectively do the job in the face of cutbacks -- things like good LDH hose beds on the quints, auto hydrant valves -- and explain what changes in procedures you need to do to use the new stuff and accomplish the old objectives. Most of the time the difference between a fire truck you adjust your tactics to and a Fire Truck built for your tactics is a few thousand dollars but a lot of time and patience to design it to meet your needs right from the start.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
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    Lightbulb

    Denmann,you are right. If the administration is trying to cut manpower I laugh when they try and use the quint concept as justification. The usual reason is that they feel they can now convince the citizens that with the quint concept it can be done with less companies. Talk about your numbers game!

    With the mention of numbers I do not understand the cost saving factor in responding with 5 quints-midis(10 pieces of apparatus,also no rescue company)then having a response of 4 engines,3 ladders,and 1 rescue(8 pieces of apparatus).

    Also I don't understand the reason of versatility for purchasing quints,maybe that's why departments are carrying less equipment(45'ground ladder comes in real handy at the rear of a 5 story apartment building). If someone can show me how we can carry the same amount of equipment we carry on our engine and ladder companies now they are a better person then me(I'm sure someone is out there).

    When people talk about technology why do they refer to manpower,isn't technology like apparatus there to assist firefighters not replace them( haven't found that TLC out there yet that can help carry out that victim). As far as a three firefighter ladder company doing truck company evolutions by what standards.

    Sorry,but if you feel a department can do the job with less manpower just say it,don't try an use technology or so-called new concepts(quints were around many years ago)to justify your reason. But take care of your department not someone else. The proper amount of manpower is still needed to put out fires safely!

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    Denmann, <br /> Some support from a brother from the north. I understand where you are coming from. Niagara Falls has cut staffing to well below minimum levels.

    the 7tuwer:<br /> What is your list of equipment? Do you pack 2000 gallons of water, 2000 gallons of foam, 3500 feet of attacklines, 2600 feet of 5", 270 feet of groud ladders, seat 10, 10 scba, 20 bottles, 89 hooks, 20 kw generator 16,500 watts of floods, 9 cord reels and 2000 feet of cord, complete extrication, air bags, cribbing, 5 saws, four master streams, two blowers, 5000 gallon drop tank, two imagers, 6 portable radios, MDT, electronic acountability system, and all the normal small engine and truck stuff? We do on each quint. And we staff to do both tasks.

    That is the FD you worked with, try maneuvering those vehicles through city streets congested with traffic. Or through the maze of street down by the waterfront in the 1st Ward.

    One other point is that BFD is not catching the same amount of fire as they used to. That may be true but they still run a pretty fair amount.

    And before anyone goes flaming me, I kept it vague intentionally. I am familiar with Buffalo and WNY, and it is a continuing trend, find a way to make due, and they will make you do more with less until you have to do everything with nothing.

    Yes people are leaving the western NY area in large numbers, but that doesn't mean that the buildings that they have vacated wont burn. I realize that those left behind have to pay for it, but the property owner next door is payin for protection of his property too.

    <br />Just some insight from a fellow Western New Yorker.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    the7tuwer<br />Maybe that is the problem! Why should we give them alternatives instead of fighting for our present level of manpower. Maybe you have alternatives because you really agree with them.

    Firefighters should not have to take back the fire service because the workload has increased in many places for the same amount of dollars. Don't know anything about your city or town,so I would not attempt to give any solutions especially since it appears you have them all. But population is not down in all places and workload has increased in many other places.

    As far as the system I suggest it is the same one that Denmann is suggesting. Keep the present system.

    Again,like I said technology is purchased to assist firefighters in doing their job more efficiently,not to REPLACE them.

    I don't understand,you mention the quint concept to save money then you say City of Richmond spent 20 million more. My point exactly!

    Maybe the solution might be that citizens should be looking into cutting city government,not the fire service. But with these great alternatives you suggest city government will have all the money they need to spend someplace else.

    Also hope that victim wouldn't be someone close to you!

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    denmann,

    There is no use in trying to even discuss this with the illustreous the7tower, his mind is set.

    You and many other firefighters in the northeast and midwest urban areas don't have the luxury of dealing with administrations that are open minded to our suggestions.

    Cutting staffing levels has become an epidemic in our areas and I don't see it changing right now.

    In closing, the7tower will never agree with any opinion other than his own. He has all the answers and I'm glad he does.

    We will have to fight our battles with the bean counters and hope we can make some inroads in the future. I don't believe it will happen but all we can do is try.

    Remember the7tower is the greatest firefighter and administrator that ever walked the earth and your opinion means absolutely nothing to him. Matter of fact he would probably suggest that Buffalo go volunteer and use the savings for all the wonderful toys my city and yours can't afford, or so they tell us.

    Good luck and I hope you win the battle.

    Now I know that the7tower will respond with some anal, long winded tirade so go for it the7tower. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

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    denmann,

    There is no use in trying to even discuss this with the illustreous the7tower, his mind is set.

    You and many other firefighters in the northeast and midwest urban areas don't have the luxury of dealing with administrations that are open minded to our suggestions.

    Cutting staffing levels has become an epidemic in our areas and I don't see it changing right now.

    In closing, the7tower will never agree with any opinion other than his own. He has all the answers and I'm glad he does.

    We will have to fight our battles with the bean counters and hope we can make some inroads in the future. I don't believe it will happen but all we can do is try.

    Remember the7tower is the greatest firefighter and administrator that ever walked the earth and your opinion means absolutely nothing to him. Matter of fact he would probably suggest that Buffalo go volunteer and use the savings for all the wonderful toys my city and yours can't afford, or so they tell us.

    Good luck and I hope you win the battle.

    Now I know that the7tower will respond with some anal, long winded tirade so go for it the7tower. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

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    Oh the7tower, you hurt my feelings. I don't know if I'll ever recover from your spanking. On second thought, yeah I will. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

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    When people talk about technology why do they refer to manpower,isn't technology like apparatus there to assist firefighters not replace them

    Historically, nope.

    One of the first great technological leaps forward was steam engines. There would be no career fire service today without them -- the manpower equipments of hand-pumped engines was simply too great.

    Only after better technology reduced manpower requirements could the large cities afford to switch to career systems. There were other reasons to support the switch, like undisciplined vollie companies, but fundementally it couldn't have done without better technology.

    Of course those first career systems were continous duty -- Firefighters might have an hour or so off each day to go home and see the wife, and once every 15 days got a Kelly day -- a whole day off. Engine and Truck companies quite often had a Captain, Lieutenant, and 10 Firefighters with the rule never more than 2 members out of quarters at a time.

    How far can a horse pull a fire engine or ladder truck? It's a real question. Back in the days of twelve man companies, large cities were still limited by the speed and endurance of a horse team to deploy fire forces in a timely manner.

    As internal combustion engines came into being, suddenly departments could divide into Two-platoons. A 12 man company could have an officer and half the firefighters away from quarters at a time -- need more manpower? No problem, pull another alarm and the gasoline-powered trucks would arrive in a timely manner.

    Once the gasoline engines could drive the pump too, you could eliminate one job. Used to be one person drove the apparatus, another was certified as a Boiler Operating Engineer. No boiler, no need for an engineer (although the term lives on in the fire service, nothing wrong with that bit of tradition).

    Eventually social and political forces drove the change to three platoon, and in the northeast to four platoon systems.

    It was then that the equation started to turn around. Better working conditions (more platoons i.e. less time on the job) and pay added up to financial pressures on a city. Fire companies that took 12 personnel to staff with 6men/shift in the 1920s and 1930s would take 24 to 30 men to staff at the same 6men/shift by the 1960s. So the per shift manpower started going down. Today a four platoon department with minimum manning of four/shift needs about 20 men per company, or they'll spend a lot in overtime, to achieve it in light of more shifts, more sick time, and more vacation time today than before WWII. Yet most of the large northeastern cities peaked in their populations just after WWII, and then began long declines. Recently a few cities have turned the corner and are growing again, and in those cities the FDs do seem to be slowly adding a little here, expanding a little there (New York, Boston both come to mind). Most however are still well below their historical peaks and stagnant or declining.

    With fewer fighters per company per shift, the search was on for technology to help them. 1.75" hose could be stretched as quickly but by fewer firefighters than 2.5". Is 1.75" the end all be all? No, but it can flow a lot more than 100gpm mentioned in the Houston article. 1.75" wasn't developed to reduce firefighters, it was developed in response to reduced firefighters.

    Hydrant Valves were another innovation to take the same manpower, and make it more efficient. The first generation had a weakness in their 1970s era electronics -- but today we have fully mechanical hydrant valves that sure seem pretty reliable and I'd bet easier to maintain in the long term than electronics. The crew makes the connection then lays forward, arriving with all the manpower.

    On the rural side we have things like lightweight large diameter hard suction -- although two people are nice, one person can setup and be drafting with our engine in about a minute largely since a 30' 6" suction is kept preconnected. One person trying to piece together a strainer and 3 10' lengths of hard suction with threaded fittings would probably make a Funniest Home Videos show. And innovation continues -- turbodrafts open up even more oppurtonities behind the length/lift of hard suction.

    Yep, technology and manpower go together. It's not just the fire service, and it's not new. The Homestead steel strike in 1892 was precipitated over technology -- better technology was reducing the need for and pay levels of the steel workers. I work in Information Technology. As much as we moan about computers (and I hate the friggin things often!), the simple fact is our economy today couldn't function without them. From computers the need for labor in many companies has been reduced in half from the mid-70s levels. We simply couldn't achieve near our GDP today with our same population without using new technologies heavily.

    Neither Public Safety nor Public Service is or should be exempt from using technology to make us more efficient. The reality is most departments facing cutbacks are gonna face cutbacks whether they use technology to it's maximum or not. You can try and be a luddite and work against -- historically, you'll lose in the long term. You can try and work with it -- may not succede, but at least you have a chance of success, and that's not something you have trying obstruct it.

    Matt
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    Lightbulb

    That is one of the problems,many city governments listen to the so-called experts that have nothing to do with the fire service! Because of politics they rather spend taxpayers money and found someone who will justify cutting service instead of listening to their own fire adminsters. Funny,when they decide to construct a building they contact an architect and money doesn't seem to be the driving force(maybe because there are no so-called experts outside of the construction industry).

    I understand that you simply made suggestions,but that is my point. How can someone that does not reside in a city profess to have the answers. What works for one city does not necessarily work for another. Wouldn't be far better to suggest that their fire administration come up with their own solutions.

    If a city decides to go with the quint concept for tactical reasons no one should have a problem with it. But if you say that assigning 6 firefighters to that unit can do the job of 8,sorry as a member of the fire service I must respectfully disagree. Unfortunately I have not found a cab that will seat 8 firefighters comfortably,but I am sure you have. The quint concept is one thing,manning the apparatus is another.

    Unfortunately too many in my 30 plus years,but luckily I have not gotten that harden that I keep track and play the numbers game.

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    Gee I didn't see the word hopeless used by the Lt. Apparently you read into posts exactly as you want. It was also a long winded ANAL tirade.

    denmann,

    This union has fought the quint concept successfully. The city once said go to quints and we'll give you a 4 man ride everyday. The question was asked, What truck companies will you close? The answer all but the platforms. The result would have been 4 men on a quint, no truck. We now ride 3 on each 80% of the time. The end result with quints, loss of two firefighters (4 rather than 6). I hope your union can do the same. There are people that are pro and anti quint. I feel that the quint concept is a way to cut total number of companies and staffing levels. The sad thing is that the7tower is just another hatchet man along with the bean counters.

    It can't hurt to fight the city administration on this.<br />I hope your union fights the concept, it will be tough but it can be done.<br />Ultimately it's up to you and the other members to decide whats best for the firefighters in Buffalo. The firefighters in Buffalo know more about firefighting than the bean counters and poltical hacks who follow mindlessly those people who have the ultimate say.

    [ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: firedawg666 ]</p>

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    Once again, Larry (the7tuwer) has proven that he is nothing more than a bureaucrat who will twist numbers to justify the killing of firemen. Good job Larry. You're now officially on their side.

    Stay Safe and don't kill anyone Larry.

    Still haven't answered the Fire-Rescue question, have ya Larry?

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    Nah, aint going to get into it with you Larry. Denmann knows that of which I speak. I will leave it at that.

    BTW what happened at Fire-Rescue Magazine Larry? We havent gotten an answer yet.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Greetings from Rochester ny! Yes we run quints and midis,but we also have engines and a rescue.Listen most would like truck/engine but 1/2 the dept.wasn't on when it was run like that and they don't know any other way.We make it work.

    A typical house fire would be like this.E16,E17,QM7,rescue 11,B1.If the quint was first in the LT. and tip man would bring in first line,ladder man would set the stick or most likely take out windows if a first floor fire or a one roomer on the second.Driver runs pump.The midi lays out,dropping off shotgun at quint who joins stickman in ventilation,driver of midi makes the plug.Engines bring in back up lines,rescue searches and fills in on ventillation.<br />If engine is first in the quint will pretty much act as a truck.Midi feeds base pumper be it engine or quint,first line runs off tank,till feed by the midi.

    2 in 2 out?Hell the driver and the guy making the plug are out right?We'll grab someone off a company that is 3rd in or call an extra company to stand around outside with the chiefs.

    To my brothers in Buffalo,well good luck the guys bitched here to,but you know what?We make it work,Hell I get to open roofs and knock down the fire!

    I don't know where those numbers about injuries came from,we get a few sprains and strains and a couple guys a year (out of 525)get a disability from a bad shoulder or knees but thats about it.

    you have to be able to do both engine and truck work,and truck work does suffer no dought,when the quint is first in that leaves 2 guys to do all the truck work till the rescue comes,than maybe you get one or two more,if they all don't just run inside.

    Q/m are not the end of the world,hey ever have a truck pull up first on a good worker.What are you going to do throw ladders at the fire?People yelling at you and you can't do much,with a quint you can.

  25. #25
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2000
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    DFW area of Texas
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    PA Volunteer

    Still haven't answered the Fire-Rescue question, have ya Larry?

    He's told us why, but I'd like to hear your version of why. But I bet we won't.

    Certainly you're not throwing a red-herring out there and you actually have some scoop for us.

    Don't you?
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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