12-25-1998, 05:21 PM #1Tut 447Firehouse.com Guest
Wondering how firefighters who operate with quints view their effectiveness. Pros and Cons anyone?
12-25-1998, 10:31 PM #2rickyFirehouse.com Guest
We are a small urban volunteer department and have a 85 Sutphen 65'. For ten years it ran as the first out [only] engine at our station # 1. It's biggest downfall was it's 400 gallon tank. It carries all the same engine company equipment as our other three first out engines plus our technical rescue equipment. It is used as a reserve engine if one of our front line engines is out of service plus it runs as our ladder company on all commercial boxes. It has been our most serviceable piece of equipment and a virtually bullet proof truck. Many of our members prefer it over the new apparatus as it gives them more options in some applications. I personnaly like the QUINT concept except for the limited water supply and some space restrictions.
12-26-1998, 04:43 AM #3fcfdFirehouse.com Guest
We run four quints with 2,000 gallon water tanks, so water tank size has never been an issue. They are a large reason why we are a ISO Class One VOLUNTEER Fire Department in our hydranted areas and a ISO Class Three in our non-hydranted areas. Both are the lowest ratings in the country. We run 8 to 10 per rig so we can accomplish attack and truck work simultaneously. Each rig is equipped for rural as well as city firefighting. CAFs has made running out of water unlikely. We carry 170' of ground ladders, 1/2 mile of 5", pump and roll pumps with the panel in the cab, 170 gallons of foam, 12 preconnect attack lines four of which are 400 feet long, 4 guns three of which are remote controlled, 20KW generators with 17KW of preconnected lighting, 7 cord reels, complete extrication gear, and thermal imagers on each rig. They also can shuttle water with side dumps and pack 5000 gal drop tanks. We are much more effective with quints than with single purpose apparatus. Storage space has not been an issue. They have been excellent pumpers and great trucks but also provide all heavy rescue functions and fulfill the role of water tankers. You can see our modest effort at quints at:
12-26-1998, 05:26 PM #4STA2Firehouse.com Guest
To decide if quints are for your dept. there has to be a couple of considerations taken into account. Is it gonna be your first due apparatus on every structural assignment? If so, does your dept. have another Truck Co. for those assignments or are SOP's gonna have to be drawn up for apparatus placement.
This is important b/c if your ariel device isn't in front of the bldg early then it is usually down the street behind the other earlier arriving apparatus.Also what is the average number of people you have to respond to a structure fire? If you have limited manpower like many of us then a fully staffed Quint might be a good alternative to a poorly manned Engine and Truck Co. arriving from different directions at different times. The down side to this is that your ariel is wherever you park your pump and this may not be where you need it. Look at St. Louis, Mo. and there dept. They seem to have good luck b/c of SOP's. As I understand it the first Co. does Engine work and the second takes the Truck assignment. Either way most of the time they have two ariel devices at the front of the bldg. with the first two arriving companies. This is possible b/c every company there is a quint. They can then be assured that they will have enough ariel devices on scene to be put up for roof ventilation, rescue work, master stream application, exposure protection, etc.
b/c every co. on the running card is so equipped no matter what side they are positioned on. Some larger dept.'s look at Quints as manpower lessening devices. In this time of fiscal frugalness by city governments they ask questions. All it takes is one council member asking why you have an Engine Co. w/4 members and a Quint Co. w/4 members side by side in the same house when they can be combined into one Quint Co. with 4 or 6 members and do the same job- atleast in their minds. Look at some of the other cities and see how they do things. Richmond, Va. is just starting a complete "Quint Concept". It will be intersting to see how they work out for them. St. Louis is getting ready to or already has ordered their second generation of quints. Look at what they change to see what they learned from their first time around. Any questions E-Mail me.
12-27-1998, 12:50 AM #5BjFirehouse.com Guest
fcfd, the quints? you have are interesting, my only question is: where does the money come from to pay for these things?
12-27-1998, 03:29 AM #6fcfdFirehouse.com Guest
At the time of their purchase they cost less than the traditional non-quints other departments in the west were buying @$460,000. The apparatus were part of a plan to reduce the ISO rating of the community. We wanted to drop from a Class 8, 9 and 10 rating in the rural areas to a Class 3 and a Class 5 in the city to a Class 1 in town. We wanted a insurance area coverage of 300 square miles instead of the 25 at the time. They did just that. The units pay for themselves in insurance savings by returning the entire yearly fire department budget every 28 days. The cost per capita for fire protection is $9. The region average is $105 per capita. Once the unscheduled plan and its benefits were presented to the elected government leaders, they authorized an emergency purchase on the spot and 3 days later the rigs were out to bid and 2 weeks after that they were on order. The mayor said, "you don't have to take low bid." Another good current example of using insurance savings to buy whatever you want is spelled out on. http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/7873/
They were truely part of a gift that keeps on giving to the community. I hope I answered your question.
12-27-1998, 04:27 AM #7BjFirehouse.com Guest
fcfd, i'm very impressed
12-27-1998, 01:13 PM #8fcfdFirehouse.com Guest
We've been on auto accidents with the quints where we used two 35's, two 24's both roofs, and a pair of folding ladders. The extra compliment came in very handy. Where each quint can shuttle water has become the back bone of our rural water supply plan that can shuttle over 3500 gpm. We just couldn't imagine owing quints with a 300 to 400 gallon water tank. Design goal number ne for a qual number one for a quiint is it has to be a good pumper first. That means big water tank, at least the same as your existing engies. It has to lay supply hose well, most quints don't or can't. It should be able to lay duals. It needs to be able to produce a master stream in seconds 360 degrees around the unit like the rest of the engines. Most quints can't. Goal two you need to carry all the engine stuff you carry on all the other engines. Goal three the aerial ground ladder compliment shouldn't be made up of wierd 3 fly odd length ladders mounted 10 feet in the air or on the side of the aerial. fly 30's, 3 fly 22's etc are too heavy and not stardard ladders. Then shoot for the aerial device that will do what you need to do. Don't skimp on the device.
12-27-1998, 02:45 PM #9STA2Firehouse.com Guest
FCFD, I have a question. Aren't two of your apparatus quints and the other two large tanker/pumpers? I thought Truck 1 and 3 were the quints and Engine 2 and 4 were the tanker/pumpers. Only 2 of your apparatus have an ariel device correct? I agree completely with your progressive method of selling the concept to your local city government but I would have to point out some things that might not work on quints elsewhere in the country.
1) Tank size as large as you can get. The area I am from is starting to look at the quint concept as an alternative to the norm. To put a 2,000 gallon or larger tank on a quint is a luxury in most cases that is unneeded. In your situation your water supply situation dictates it being necessary for you to bring your water with you. Here I could use the size and space for more compartment space to hold equipment. Also this makes for a very large and heavy apparatus which will be difficult to get around with in an urban setting. Weight restricted bridges and roadways are then a problem to be considered also.
2)Laying a supply line. To be considered a quint an apparatus has to have a hose bed of some sort. So most quints CAN lay a supply line. There dept. SOP's may not require them to do so if they are utilized as Truck companies or if the second engine always lays.
3)Master stream in seconds. I agree completely. This is agood quick knock down tool to really take out the BTU's early.
4)To Carry all the other engine stuff onboard can in some cases be unnecessary. Like I said before, is this a single quint dept. or what? If my dept. has 6 of them and 12 engine companies I don't need them to carry 6 more sets of the same thing. The engine companies are not gonna carry the quint or truck company equipment are they?
It all comes down to how they are staffed, utilized and put on the running card.
5)Wierd ground ladders are a pain for sure. Much heavier and cumbersome. And thank goodness you mentioned how to carry them. An apparatus with ladders out of the way and difficult or untimely to get to will not be used and they will sit. What this means is your crews might try to take short cuts on the fireground to get the job done 'cause who wants to mess with a ladder 10' off the ground? Put them w/in reach or have them be able to be put in reach quickly.
6)The ariel device is interesting and I agree. It has to be the one your dept. needs. Not what your neighbor bought. Don't keep up with the jones' on this. XYZ city FD may need a 85' snorkel. Because the snorkel is new doesn't mean you don't need a 105' platform to reach your target hazards. Look at your response area to see what the front yard offsets are from the street. How tall is your tallest bldg.? Can you reach the roof of the movie theatre while having the apparatus parked outside of the collapse zone? These are things to look at.
7)I would disagree however as to the need for a quint to be a good pumper first. Yes it has to be able to pump water and do it when you need it to. But is the pump to be used for charging the attack lines or getting water to its own ariel master stream. To get stuck in this idea of it MUST be something first is to get stuck in the rut of positioning it everytime like its an engine. Your running schedule and SOP's should dictate how its used.
I am not meaning to run down your apparatus FCFD. I have seen them for a couple of years now in every fire service magazine I think.
They look like well thought out pieces of equipment on the cutting edge at the time they were built. I just got concerned when you mentioned a couple of things that sounded like they were absolutes. Take care and be safe.
12-27-1998, 04:32 PM #10Beagle1Firehouse.com Guest
If you are going to run a quint, run a quint, and equip it effectively.
My dept runs a 75' E-One Aerial with only
a 30 foot ground ladder and a 12 foot roof ladder.
In my county it is stuck between an engine and a truck since there are no Quint specs at this time. It does have a 1500 GPM pump and carries 500 gallons of water which serves its job at being a pumper quite well.
The only real problem I have with it, calling it an engine doesn't bother me, is that the tallest buildings in our first due are nursing homes, and I think that running 50 or 60 elderly people down a ladder would prove to be a very dangerous endeavour.
Bottom Line: If your community accepts a quint as a quint, and it is properly equipped, it can be a good thing; If your tallest building is a nursing home, consider going for a tower.
These opinions represent
only one person, not my
company, or dept.
12-27-1998, 09:54 PM #11fcfdFirehouse.com Guest
12-27-1998, 10:50 PM #12fcfdFirehouse.com Guest
1) I still hold the water tank should match the engines in your community unless it is your goal of hamstringing the unit before it arrives for service. It almost makes a case that your engines water tanks are too big if you buy a small water tank on the uint. I just ordered a 100 footer with a 1000 gallon tank. I've owend 65 foot tele squirts with 750 tanks. We do have a water system in the city. Large tanks offer forgiveness, buy time and increase the tactical utility of the piece. We have in excess of 200 cu ft of storage space. I can't think of a anything additional I would want to carry, we pack 14 bottles 10 SCBA, 12 salvage covers, 8 hooks, 4 saws, 7 cord reels with 1750 feet of cord, 14 flood lights, blowers, tool boxes, portapowers, ems stuff, complete extrication heavy hydraulics, I know we carry twice the supply line, three times the nozzles and 4 times the attack lines of most fire trucks, air bags, a bunch of cribbing, a mess of rural water stuff, a torch, plus all the normal gadgets and still have lots of room left. Our rigs are no bigger than the new fangled 4 door commercial pumpers everyone is buying. In most cases we out turn them. FDNY runs rescues, trucks, and towers all bigger and heavier than our quints. They some how get there. So far running around big cities has not posed any challenge. In fact we have the ability to shorten the turn radius 30% if needed. That would allow it to turn the same as a 170 WB inch pumper. Transit and school buses all have longer wheelbases and a worse turning radius. I believe the driver is the key more than the rig, we used to commonly jump curbs in the normal pumpers. After mandatory CDL training for all drivers it isn't an issue. If nothing else people are thinking not just driving.
2) I don't agree with you that most quints can lay line. Most can't when turning. The E-one unit the gentleman posted on is the same as the units out here. It rips stuff off the back, hangs up couplings, and is lousy.
3) Where we live engines do carry everything the truck carries except the aerial device, every single thing.
4) Staffing, we run 3 times the national average of firefighters per rig so we do in fact perform truck and engine operations simultaneously.
7)I would suggest if the quint is not a good pumper first then it will never be used as a quint. It will just end up as a truck with a pump to supply its own ladder pipe if anyone remembers to do it the day of the fire. Making it a good pumper first does not stick the unit in a "rut". It does not require positioning it as a engine or a truck. If properly designed it can in fact do either. Where I live the unit is almost always positioned as a truck. We can stretch hose but not the aerial device.
Here are some almost "absolutes" that are commonly bad on most quints. 1. Very small water tanks that always have teh crew guessing about attack or wait for supply. 2. Lousy ground ladder compliments. 3. Outrigger spread that is way too wide. 4. 7 to 10 foot high crosslays. 5. Insufficient handlines and preconnects. 6. No deck gun or one that only allows use on one side of the unit. 7. Poor supply bed design. 8. Lousy floodlighting. 9. Little or no growth potential for the future. 10. No foam...A or B, or a bitty 10 to 30 gallon tank and and/or tiny proportioner, almost never CAFS. 11 Insufficient pump capacity to feed attack lines, guns and ladder pipe. 12. Poor breaking performance. 13. Too much stuff cramed in a small space. 14. Generally all are manpower intensive designs runned by understaffed organizations. 15. Supply bed will not hold what was expected and almost never can lay dual large lines. 16. Most arrive over weight on arrival and will not carry what was desired at spec time. 17. They all need 1500 plus watt floods on the tip to use as light towers. 18. The rural versions necver carry enough water. 19. The innovations you rely on on your engine like rear suctions, rear discharges, lightweight easily removable ground ladders are all missing on the quint. 20. All of the above assures they are lousy pumpers which is more than 50% of the quint mission.
12-28-1998, 03:31 AM #13STA2Firehouse.com Guest
I see I've stirred a hornets nest FCFD. So allow me to respond. You hamstring a unit before it arrives and its useless. The tank size is dependent upon its use. Truck co., engine co., both or whatever. If its run as a truck co. why have huge tank that never gets used. Take Colombus, Ohio. Their Truck Co.'s have pumps and no tanks. It works for them and that is what counts. I don't agree in doing that but it sounds like you would like to take the same apparatus and pump it full of steroids. I agree with the most bang for the buck and tactical diversity and all of the buzzwords and phrases but there is a breakover point you reach when you can put all your eggs in one basket or in this case quint. Your 100' w/1000 gallon tank should be interesting. Why are you specing that out when the end all be all quints are the wave of the future. By the way was I right about only having 2 ariel devices on the "quints" you have? You build your new 100' and run it and I'll show you an apparatus that is either built on a crane chassis and responds in hours not minutes or one that will be articulated and to wide to be pratical. Our engines here have good size water tanks of b/t 500 gallons and 750 gallons depending. I believe in building an apparatus to suit a particular need or agency, not the other way around. You believe in 1000 gallon or larger tanks and that works for you, but not everyone needs to be able to do that. Yeah tactical flexibility is a good point but at what cost (Do I see multiple eggs in the cab of a quint?). You speak highly of your extra space (for growth right?)in the compartments
after all your equipment is onboard but then in the same breath say its no bigger than a FL80 commercial 4 DR. pumper. Either your rigs are twice as tall or twice as wide as the FL80 for that to be the case. You carry twice the supply line b/c you NEED that much. Don't tell me you carry it for looks. You carry three times the nozzles and 4 times as many attack lines to be deployed by a guaranteed 10 man crew. You should consider yourself fortunate to have that kind of manning on your apparatus. FDNY does run rigs that are large and heavy. but even their rigs are built for a single type of work. How many of there Truck Co.'s do you think have pumps? To my knowledge only 1. They do truck work and are equipped for it. They are big and do get there but look at their accident rates also. Your quint idea is good for your dept. There can be no cookie cutter solution to apparatus types. What works for you in Fallon is not gonna work in Dallas. Your point is good about the school and transit buses but the last time I looked they are not making a fast attack and initiating a primary search on a 3 story OMD either. Lets keep apples to apples shall we. That also means they are not responding emergency traffic thru city traffic to emergency calls for help (Atleast not here). That means they can be larger and not have as many problems with turning and hurting the precious curbs you speak of. You are 100% correct about the drivers being the key. Train them right to do their job right and SAFELY. I still think most quints can lay a line for themselves. If your right I guess that means St. Louis and Richmond, Va. have all straight streets with stations on each end or they booster tank everything. St. Louis has been using quints ENTIRELY and has good luck but ask yourself why?-Training and SOP's. And the gentleman before you speak of, If couplings hang up and its cluttered on the rear of the rig then move the obstacles or design it clean from the beginning. This is not rocket science here, common sense goes along way. Your three times the national average manning may allow you to do engine and truck work simultaniously but where do you stage the rig. There will be times when you are not capable of having it in two places at the same time when you need it. To maybe remember
that your rig has a pump when you need your ladder pipe is like driving. You need to train your operators so they don't forget about little things like that. It goes hand in hand with avoiding curbs and CDL courses. You mention that if correctly designed the quint can do both jobs. I disagree. You can design all you want, but if it is not PLACED correctly then you have wasted your cities funding. You can stretch hose and not the ladder but I have seen dept.'s try.
I would like to address your "absolutes" if I may. I believe you probably mean common problems or traits associated with quints and not absolutes b/c those can't be changed (Not even with W.S. Darley).
1) Very small tanks. The BUYING dept. should know what they need,not you and I. If they need a 20 gallon tank then thats what they need b/c you and I don't live there and know otherwise.
2) Lousy ground ladder compliments. You need to take that up with the NFPA b/c they set the minimum number, types and footage of ladders required in order to be considered a quint.
3) Outrigger spread being to wide. your outrigger spread is very narrow from what I have seen. But, the outrigger spread on your "quint" is gonna be narrower than that of another quint with a full service ariel device. Some mfg. (E-One) have a narrower spread on a 110' rear mount ariel than a 65' Tele-Squirt does. But that could be just a "city" problem.
4) Highcrosslays. Thats why they have speedlays. It is all in how the customer
designs it. maybe all their members are 6'8" tall.
5) Not enough handlines. Open for argument. Carrying the number to fit your avg. size crew is not wrong. Your dept. need more lines for larger crews. But that is a problem on more than quints.
6) Deck pipes. Most of the quints out there need that point addressed. You have done that nicely w/the offset design.
7) Hose bed design. Agreed that this area usually needs attention on most types of apparatus not just quints.
8) Floodlighting. My engine has three 1500 watt floodlights per side that can be used on the move. You have a point but the problem is not isolated to quints.
9) Growth potential. More dept.'s are aware of this than you think although it is a problem. Building extra room into a design is needed. Specs must include use twenty yrs. down the road.
10) Foam. The school is still out on that one. You can watch demos and read the material but only people who use it day in and day out know for sure. Your water problem dictates you stretch it as far as you can. Other people don't have the same concerns. You would know more than I. But like I said we need to watch the number of eggs here in the quint.
11) Pump size. If what you say is true then the apparatus committee should be questioned. Any pumping apparatus should be able to go to work at capacity and have all pre-connected lines and master stream devices able to work all from the same pump.
12) Braking performance. Take it up with NFPA. Depending on the GVWR a supplemental braking device might be needed (i.e.: Telma, Jake Brake, etc.). Should be considered in the spec writing. Again a problem on tankers and large pumpers as well.
13) Small space. All in the design. I've seen quints layed out nicely with more room for storage that a grass rig.
14) Bad design and manpower requirements. Yes but that is not a design flaw. That is usually a funding issue. Don't blame a breed of apparatus for fiscal frugalness.
15) Dual lines. Not needed by every dept. I see a habit of faulting those who don't have your needs and don't have long runs without plugs. If you need it then great. I don't with a plug every 400' and a good water main system. Our response times are not as long as yours and we can usually get a good quick knock on the fire. It would be impractical to carry twice the avg. amount of supply line.
16) Agreed. Spec needs to plan for the future.
17) 1500 Watt light on the tip. NO THEY DON'T. If you want a light tower then spec one. I don't believe in putting electrical equipment any closer to large amounts of water than is necessary. A purpose built light tower is more practical and less prone to problems. Call me old fashioned, but mounting alot of 1500 watt floodlighting to the underside of a tele-squirt is not desirable at all.
18) Water tank. Already been here. What is enough for you is more than enough for someone else. Each dept. has needs different than its neighbors. That is why there are different options available and not a "one size fits all" tank.
19) Clarify please.
20) The mission of a quint is what the dept. that runs it says its mission is. In your dept. it runs calls one way. In Portland another. In Pittsburgh yet another. Again is it being run as a truck co. or a quint or an engine with an ariel device? It matters.
All I am trying to say is that dept.'s need to research and determine what kind of quint they need and how it will be used and staffed. Neither you or I have every answer. Your "quints" have what you need as ariel devices. They look like 65' or 75' tele-squirts. That works for you. Some dept.'s may need a quint with a 100' platform. Don't slam other dept's b/c of a picture you saw of their rigs. It may be a good design in action. Remember looks can be deceiving.
12-28-1998, 01:41 PM #14ECBURTFirehouse.com Guest
Let's stay on topic. <"No water tank"> Then we are not talking about quints. So what is wrong with all our eggs in one basket? We run a tower ladder too. The 100/1000 is on the same wheelbase will have a top speed of 70 and will do everything these do. I guess <"You believe in 1000 and larger tanks for everyone"> No I don't, I never said that. I'm guess I'm not clear, buy a water tank to match the engines water tank. Is that better? So when I had 750 tanks I bought 750 tanks on my quints. What did it cost for more water? The 75'E-one with 500 only gallons was 13K more than our 2000 gallon tanks. The 65' General was 35K more than ours. The non quint tractor drawn job's down the road are 270K more each. The non-quint tower down the road is 200K more. We could have bought a lot less for a lot more money. The most common FL 80 out here is on a 270 WB we are 256 we are taller but it presents zero challenges, not as tall as FDNY rescues or a traditional tower ladder. Did I say somewhere to carry everything your town doesn't need? Let's all agree right here not to carry what you don't need, carry what you do need, determine your needs, analyize he fire problem and the water sytem then buy. I don't see manning as fortunate, it was planned. There have been cookie cutter solution to apparatus that have worked fine. The topic is quints I talked about quints. So Fallon rigs couldn't work in Dallas? Why? Our quints are just as big as their aerials, they use water we use water, they use 5" we used 5". theyuse TFT's we use TFT's they fight fire we fight fire, physcis are physics. We did a side by side for time test against San Jose quint and engine company in San Jose to see who could get more water flowing faster. We had four major streams to there one with half the staffing in 1/3 the time as a conventional two piece company. We had water on the fire 4 minutes sooner. Your point on weight and size has nothing to do with attack or search. The rigs gets there period. A 256 wheelbase can in fact out turn most 170 wb engines. It is all in the specs. <"Lets keep apples to apples shall we"> Please do! You said too big too heavy, I'm saying if others run something bigger and heavier successfully and gave lots of examples then there is zero reason these wouldn't work as well. Ok, E-One 75ers, Cortez CO couldn't lay 5" so they had to it loaded with 4" cut the water supply in half and requires the rig to be 2/3rds closer to the hydrant, Halton city TX couldn't lay hose so they bought a tender to lay the hose, Huntingdon beach CA quint couldn't lay hose changed sizes, Sutphen quints need to raise basket to lay, hundreds of LTI's need to extend chutes to lay line, lots of Pierces and Smeals need to lay through tubes, Lots of towns need to hand jack it off, A bunch of tele squits barely allow the 5 inch line to clear the turntable. 100's of rigs require special loading techniques or the hose won't come off..some Sutphens and AE units have it figured out though. LA Countys new KME;s require removing ground ladders, opening 8 doors to reload the hose. The rear lay door will last one or two lays before it and the lights around it are history. Such designs are predictable and will ensure it never gets laid. I'll be happy to give lots of town names if you like. Go to a fire show and see the obstacles everyone puts in the way of their supply bed. It is just a fact. We run more than one rig to a fire and so far it has done both tasks without hickup. <"To maybe remember that your rig has a pump when you need your ladder pipe is like driving. "> what are you trying to say? <"then thats what they need b/c you and I don't live there and know otherwise.">So when the guys at Richmond say their tanks suck, we didn't take enough time planning, I shouldn't listen to them? When the guys in Cortez say they can't lay hose they are wrong. The guy with the squirt was assured 1000 feet of hose would fit but only 800 will lay in the bed. When the guys in Emeryville say we have to handjack it off I don't know because I don't live there? Because NFPA sets aminimum ladder compliments it is not there fault. Chicago always exceedst he comoliment we did by 65 feet per rig. I personally don't spend my life doing the minimum our public deserves more. <"It is all in how the customer designs it. "> you said it all, the customers are doing a terrible job. And the non-firefighting manufacturers are helping them out with almost fire trucks. How do you make a 15 to 30 year vehicle life with two 200 foot crosslays? No growth limited options. Foam, there is absolutely no proof to the contrary that foam does not do a much better job than water and it is the only solution for flammable liquids fires. Boston's conclusions were they could use half the water on the same room and their supply lasted to to 3 times longer. We use foam on every call for 4 years. We've got 50,000 miles on quints what is the problem with all these eggs? Mantenance? It has been almost zilch, Training? Not much of an issue. What? CAFS on our rigs was not for the water supply issue it was to address the best way of putting out a fire and doing the least amount of damage for the public. Pump size, St Louis 1500 gpm they have a gun, 3 crosslays and a ladder pipe, equals 2600 gpm. Syracuse 2000 gpm need 3100 to 6100. Richmond 1500 needs 3500. Braking issue goes away when you add another axle. It costs less to have a 6 by 12 inch pump panel in the cab with three switches that do everything than a 200 control side mount pump panel so I don't agree it is a funding issue. How does Richmond, Phoenix, LA County, Ft Worth, Syracuse or St Louis supply their 1500 gpm or 2000 pumps with their 3 1/2" or 4" hose to capacity? They don't! They can't unless they are within 100 to 150 feet of a hydrant. A 400 foot forward lay which any of them might have to make requires a 300 psi residual hydrant. Not going to happen is it? They need multiple supply lines just to attain pump capacity. They all have mutiple LDH inlets, they just can't lay the lines. Syracuse after 25 years is finally getting their supply line issue solved by going with larger hose and duals on some rigs. It explains the automatic tips and small tips on guns nicely though. They can't supply the big ones. Hydraulics are hydraulics. We have light towers and lights on the tips of the aerials and tower ladder and had more light mast problems than ladder tip light problems. So you think you can find an engine company or a firefighter in this land who wants less water on their pumper? Less than their engine's? The guys in Cheesapeek, VA know how important water tank size is. Or is this a committee idea to get a whole bunch of crap in a small cute package?<"Don't slam other dept's b/c of a picture you saw of their rigs."> We talked to them or in many cases they talked to us. We didn't rely on pictures. We sent folks to New Jersey, New York, Syracuse, Miami, PA, OH, OH, CA, CO and several other places to go see. Your right we don't know it all or even a portion but certain things are obvious and do not add up. The point of the board is quints. As long as we stay on topic and do not believe every single department is different than we have something to share. The quints going out the door pretty much fill a common mold or two not 50.
12-28-1998, 11:35 PM #15STA2Firehouse.com Guest
ECBURT is it. The impression you have of my arguments appears to be slanted. I agree completely with staying on the posted issue.
My whole point from the beginning (must have been lost in that desert air)was to point out that quints and every other type of apparatus should be built to suit the customers needs. You appear to me to be saying what NEEDS to be on a quint. If someone differs in their opinion then they are slow or something. Lets be real please. The FL80 comparison you speak of is still unbelievable. And the FDNY. I have been there and seen the rigs and rode on them also. Yes, they are big-Oohh. Yes, They are tall-Aahh. Yes, They are long and painted red - And your point is what? Then lets settle the FDNY issue. What are the road travel measurments of your "quints"? I am willing to bet you that they are as tall as the HME/Saulsbury rigs just delivered. I agree about not carrying what we don't need.
12-28-1998, 11:49 PM #16STA2Firehouse.com Guest
Continued from above.
Your methodology for figuring out what you need I agree with. Your manpower issue is something still unclear to me. The last run surveys I looked at in Firehouse didn't have anyone running with 10 man companies. I would call that fortunate, gifted or something. This is the place when your standards on apparatus capabilities starts to get unique. Why design a quint for a 10 man crew when it will never run with one? Better than that, design the rig for the specific needs of its area, not that of yours or mine. Don't assume b/c I am speaking in opposition of you that I am trying to "hamstring" anything here. I just believe in being real with funding and practical applications. Your comparison to San Jose I am sure was impressive to say the least. I said before your rigs were well thought out and that would appear to back that statement up. The point of weight and size does matter in some areas of this country. The size and weight will dictate in some cities how fast you are able to get to a fire in order to do the suppression and rescue. Nobody said yours would not work because of there size. All I said was to not appear as though you were saying that the fire service quint of the future didn't have to worry about size and weight. You name lots of cities that have the problems you have mentioned in your other posts. I run with a Sutphen 100' tower that is from the 80's and carries a full compliment(1000') of 5" hose and the last time I saw it lay a line the bucket was not in the air. Agreed, alot of dept's have failed when it comes to apparatus design or have learned lessons.
12-29-1998, 12:23 AM #17STA2Firehouse.com Guest
continued again from above.
The "To maybe remember that your rig has a pump when you need your ladder pipe is like driving" comment was in reply to your comment that little problems can be overcome with training. If a person can't remember the rig he is operating has a pump then he doesn't need to be driving it with or without a CDL course. When you talk to guys in Richmond about their rigs and get feedback that is one thing entirely. When you make assumption about the very same rigs w/out benefit of feedback is what I was reffering to. The guys in Cortez are the same- as long as you talk to the guys who run the rigs then thats fine. The guy w/ the squirt and 1000' of 5" hose needs to pull his spec and see what the mfg is going to do to make it work if that is what was agreed to. Out of all the comments that have been thrown back and forth here there is one I completly agree with. The public does deserve more than the minimums in our job. They deserve the best and we are expected to give it 100% everyday and in everyway. No shortcuts, abreviations, or anything else. To say the customers (The buying dept's) are doing a terrible job is not right. That is a blanket indictment of all dept's no matter how much time and effort they put into a spec. The two crosslay rig that has to last 30 yrs. is a design OPTION. You and I are not the allmighty fire truck design people. How about rigs that are bought by a dept. w/ no jumpseats. Just a front seat. Are they dumb for not buying what you or I have? No they are not. The CAFS issue. The eggs I speak of are that some people who read this may think that they need to put everything into a "flagship of the fleet" rig in order for it to be functional. Do you have any mountains near you? If you do then I will say it again from there. IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW IT WILL BE UTILIED, STAFFED, AND PUT ON THE RUNNING CARD. Why should XYZ FD put everything you mention as a must on their quint when it is gonna be utilized as a Truck Co.? If that is the case then put your capabilities on other apparatus. You seem fond of the "quint as a engine" idea. I believe it is a special type of apparatus. My opinion is that if I had to choose a side I would lean towards the Truck Co. role on the fireground as long as it has a descent ariel device. It can do both but if it is a dept's only truck then why put all these capabilities on it when it doesn't leave the house on the calls you built it to handle? Of all your arguments that I believe, the under supplied pump is the one. The rigs have got to be able to supply what they have in pre-connected lines and master stream devices or they are "hamstrung" from the beginning as you would say. You bring up the booster tank size issue again. The brothers in Chesapeke, Va. do know what tank size is all about but that is not the issue here AT ALL. E-Mail me if you want to discuss that. Instead of small cute package how about big cute package. Does that sound better? Youare right that all dept's are not that different in their objectives. What type of rigs they use with what kind of options is different though. And finally the quints going out the door are not as simple as 1 or 2 designs. They should not be either. This would say that Atlanta, Ga. has the same needs as Atlanta, Texas does. Lets keep on the topics shall we like you said. Do E-Mail me about that other item. Be safe and send me the specs on your new 100' if you would.
By the way, what about these quints and all the CAFS, light towers, 14 pre-connects, etc. when it bumps up and down the rode 18 times a day with 14 of those being EMS calls?
12-29-1998, 12:31 AM #18fcfdFirehouse.com Guest
The city air must be gettingto you. EC and FCFD are agreeing You are the odd man out. The trucks are not bbeingbuilt to be good quints, engines or trucs if they take your advice and giveup the water and portions of other features. I'm sharing my life's experiences and so is the other poster. If departments were doing all these things you say the customer should do there wouldn't be an issue of whether quint or not. SImple lists of gapping holes wouldn't be so easy to list. The curb to curb is 50' and 56' what is unbelievable about that, the axle sits three feet further foward than a custom chassis. FDNY point. New York gets there in those bigger rigs why can't the Churchill rigs? They can. You said they wouldn't work in a city. Two feet shorter than the FDNY rescues. 38' and 11 inches shorter according to the Saulsbury drawing and better cramp angles and no concrete block under the rear end. Their towers are much longer. As were their Sutphens and LTI's all lasted their noraml 10 year lifes in the CITY. Ge, other city's use 40 foot long rigs too. Now why can't the Churchill rigs work there? The nationwide average of 100 cities by Phoenix is around 3. The point is it is not an accident churchill runs 10 per rig. It is intentional, planned, budgeted, rigs designed for it. Why design 10 man cabs? Only do it if you plan to fill them. NO one said everyone should but a lot should. 80% of the world is volunteer and could illthem if they tried. We should be running 15 man cabs. You aso missed the point above of yes design for your area. Most don't they order a dear app guy send me what they got but cheaper. No reason to keep going to should, if they's, they shoulds, etc. The facts are most are not. They are buying more demo rigs than designed rigs. Size and weight fall into the above as well. height, etc. <"the future didn't have to worry about size and weight"> huh? Where? If there are already thiongs this big doing the job lots of places why wouldn't they work? I remember well on mutual aid seeing those wonderful tractor drawn rigs that they get two for the price of three of ours sitting in a park unable to help an advancing wildland fire on a neighborhood. Awesome investment. We gelled and foamed homes with our low bid rigs in motion. The sanptite video shows the basket up because it hung up making the video earlier. I would strongly suggest not buying the traditional off the shelf demo quint.
12-29-1998, 10:52 PM #19STA2Firehouse.com Guest
FCFD and ECBURT. I never said your rigs would not work in New York City or LA or anywhere else. All I said was that size and weight should be a consideration. How many low hanging trees are on 5th. ave. south of Central Park? Not many. Somehow I don't envision the desert as having a tropical rainforest setting either. But I could be wrong like everything else you disagree with. If you want to build and buy an expensive tree trimmer go ahead. See how many emergency purchases you do to keep replacing lights and areil devices and the like everytime you go into a neighborhood. Trees are just one consideration. Now lets talk about the older houses to keep these monsters in. You talk about how FDNY does it. Yeah the rigs there are no bigger than yours you say. But how many FDNY basements have you been in recently? The 3 or 4 I last saw had more cracked concrete and shoring underneath the floor than a movie set and lumberyard combined. There are a great number of these old houses left with height resticted doors and weight restricted floors and aprons out front. Now your gonna say that I am advocating no progress for the sake of an old house. I'm not. How many of your average depts can afford to buy a new rig AND build a new house to keep it in all in one budget year? Maybe in your area its possible. The 10 yr life of the Sutphens and LTIs is correct with one exception. Ladder 14 still runs an American La France/LTI in Manhattan that is over 10 yrs old. So you tell me. Length is an issue also. How many of those old houses are short bayed also. We have not even talked about overpasses and underpasses. Build a quint to do a certain job and the size can be reduced accordingly. Oh, am I hamstringing them again? NO. If you need it to do everything then build it that way like yours. Obviously you are not concerned with size and that works for you. I agree about the cabs. My vounteer dept has 10 man cabs on two twin Spartan/Quality rescue pumpers and we fill them. However I look at that as good fortune. You seem to say it is required. It is not. Some depts have other priorities when it comes to specing out their rig. My other dept. has 6 man cabs by Spartan but staffs with 4 on a regular basis on the Engine Co.'s. Should they also buy 10 man cabs b/c they might one day in the future have that size crew for a parade? No its not realistic. I don't like seeing depts buy a rig by looking in the new deliveries of a magazine either. Some people need to be educated about their purchases. Granted. I also agree that some mfg don't help the issue. The dept needs to choose their dealer and mfg carefully. They need someone to work WITH them, not do it FOR them and TELL them what they need. The quote you took from me appears to be taken out of context a little. I said that it appeared, and I was fraid, that YOU were saying that the future din't have size to worry about. The road weight rules are gonna only get stiffer. You shifted gears a little here but I'm with you. Off the shelf demo quints are not the answer. Agreed. Everyone needs to build their rig to suit their needs and requirements. How many times must I say that? You seem to be very passionate about the issue here as am I. Your rigs work for you and I'm sure they are wonderful. The quints I have been around are just as functional. They don't have all the extra options yours do but they do their intended AND designed job and quite well. Also you are the exception, not the rule, on manning. Again, be safe. Am I gonna get the 100' spec?
12-30-1998, 04:02 PM #20fcfdFirehouse.com Guest
<The brothers in Chesapeke, Va. do know what tank size is all about but that is not the issue here >
Sure it is, everyone is quick to give up tank size on their quint and maintain or lose hose bed space. Both were factors in VA. Not enough hose and not enough water to complete the lay. The town didn't change the hydrants were there a long time. The FD apparatus didn't address the what ifs.
Boston runs 750 tanks most of the world runs 500's in the city. The guys with 500's wouldn't have any trouble running 750's. Water is very important. Ahouse is a house natinwide and fire is fire, not every hydrant works oris easily useable in all cases so the argument we got lots of hydrants is a nice excuse but that is all it is. Apparatus should cary enough hose to catch the wrong hydrant or be the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th in unit. Apparatus committee decisions may not identify the 1200 lay potential. E-ones stadard crosslay obn a quint is 8 feet high.
<By the way, what about these quints and all the CAFS, light towers, 14 pre-connects, etc. when it bumps up and down the rode 18 times a day with 14 of those being EMS calls? >Gee I don't know what happens to rigs with less? Like you read we are not having any maintenance issues with the fleet. However, the whole idea of running an engine, quint or truck on ems calls can't be too good an idea for the fire service monopoly because if it were the private for profit ambulance companies would be doing it. I think a suburban or a johnny and roysquad is plenty. Afterall out here like many places 50 to 70% of all ems calls are a social program, hand holding exercise not a true ems emergency. Simply screan the calls. If it makes economic sense to run a half million dollar fiere truck do it, or better yet sell ems to ems so they can make the profit and the investment like we did. If first response was so important on all calls pd, fire, taxis, pizza, and ambulance crews would all respond. We've got some of the highest mountains aywhere and rigs run right up them faster than we would like to go. Been 4 yearsnow, and 10 with the other quints, still waiting to replace a light because of a tree limb. I certainly do not follow the conceppt of design the fire truck to fit the station. I velieve you design the rig to handle the fire and rescue problem then see if it can fit. Why run almost a fire truck when you need to run a whole fire truck? Who cares about fdny basements, they are running bigger heavier rigs successfully and I don't think we are on their running card. We bought a new station and all the apparatus and replaced all loose equipment in one year as have any others. I explained how easy it was to get the money. <Should they also buy 10 man cabs b/c they might one day in the future have that size crew for a parade? > Where did anybody say that was required?
<The quints I have been around are just as functional. >Let's talk performance. We can supply a handline for 11 minutes off tank water or 25 minutes with CAFS, produce one, two, or three master streams 200 feet away from a fire in motion, have 360 degree floods on enroute, deploy up to 6 cord lights in less than 30 seconds, deploys the aerial flowing water and two other master streams in 3 minutes with 3 guys and lay dual 5" lines 400 feeet long, deploy 4-400' and/or 6 150 foot attack lines, 9 guys in scba on arrival, cut cars apart, ladder almost twice the NFPA minimum. That is for every rig. We can drop 1/2 mile of 5", shuttle, dump the lad into a portatank in less than 60 seconds, produce more foam than any of the military crash trucks in the region, more ways, produce a 1700 foot relay in less than 5 minutes with one guy. The rigs can be operateed from the cab, replace 90% of the valves inless than 5 minutes without tools, draft in 45 seconds with one guy, cover 60 homes per load of water with gel or 100 with CAFS and we spent a lot less than the average truck company. For whatever reason it works for us.
<Am I gonna get the 100' spec? > I don't have them in a format I can send. I'll see if they can send it to me on disk, last timeit did not covert well. If all goes as expected I hope to order 3 more 100' quint towers possibly 150'ers and 10 3500gpm/3000 gallon support tender quads in april with a little more capability.
12-31-1998, 01:07 AM #21cwernerFirehouse.com Guest
Congratulations to everyone in this discussion. This promotes the very discussion, thoughts and ideas about the topic. In this case, quints. What everyone seems to be saying is that quints have their respective place. Also, stated is that quints aren't for everyone and there are some specific issues that must be addressed for quints to be effectively integrated into any firefighting situation. My hats off to all of you in the firefighting family and the ongoing dialogue on this and other issues! Be safe whereever you are!!!
12-31-1998, 11:04 AM #22STA2Firehouse.com Guest
Just when I thought we were gonna agree to disagree you bring up something else. I don't know how many EMS calls you all make in the desert, but here we make a lot of them. I mean a lot of them. You say its all a social problem. You are probably partly right, but what if your not right. The hand holding is right sometimes also. The babysitting is right sometimes. Who are you though? You are a civil servant (Unless Nevada is different). Your job is to respond to the publics request for emergency services. It is not your job or mine to tell someone if they are having a true emergency over the phone in all cases. Sometimes yes you can screen them properly. Tell Dallas about screening calls. A number of yrs ago they screened calls using a nurse I believe (someone out there correct me if I am wrong). They also had a lawsuit from that same policy and no longer do it. If your medical director says so then great, no load them over the phone. But eventually you will end up in court. It sounds like you are being a bit harsh about the public who you said before deserved 100%. Sounds like a contradiction. Were you lying then OR now? Send the pizza guy and a taxi, its your indictment, not mine. Call the SPCA while you are at it. But when you fail to meet a standard of care, have fun. But we are off the subject again aren't we. You should care about FDNY basements. You should care about stations all over the country from dept's that want quints to put in them. You are advocating giants for everyone. The concrete and steel companies are gonna love you. As I said before, your conditions and area and my conditions and area DON'T MATTER TO EVERYONE. If a customer(Who I believe you called dumb before) wants a quint that can do everything and then some great. But not everyone can afford those apparatus or need them. Like I said I don't need a quint here to do an ARFF rigs job. Maybe you do. I don't have to worry about the SWI problem that you do. Maybe you are preparring for a mutual-aid with Idaho in the spring. I don't know. You are still saying that if they don't have the capability to equal yours then the customer (The buying dept.) is dumb or stupid or was sold a demo spec or something. 2000 gallons of water, 300 gallons of AFFF, "A" and "B" foam cells, 2 miles of supply line, 20 pre-connected attack lines, pump panels on all three sides of the rig, 2 deck pipes, an ariel device, 3000 gallon drop tank, 200 lbs of Purple K for the ARFF role, your gel stuff, and everything else altogether IS NOT NEEDED IN EVERY APPLICATION. Nobody said you are on FDNY running cards. Is that next yrs project? What about them not using quints. Are they dumb for not? I DON'T THINK SO. They are still the busiest dept in the world and do a good job. Thay don't run 100' towers with 2000 GPM pumps (except with previously mentioned Ladder 14). Choose your words carefully but please reply. They appear to have a good handle on the tasks at hand using regular Ladder and Tower Ladder apparatus. How many runs a yr do you make with those earth shattering quints? 350 a yr for the entire dept. is it? Now run those marvels of life up and down the rode 18 or more times a day like D.C. Engine 10 and Truck 13. How about with 138 Truck in Queens or Engine 290 in East NY? Maybe Task Force 33 or 11 in L.A. is better? What about the south side of Chicago and Squad Co. 5 with their snorkel. Do that and get a good look at real life problems. Your valves can be field repairable w/out tools in 5 min. or 5 seconds. It doesn't matter when other things keep breaking and you are out of service to assist the public. You are the one saying that these rigs are required for everyone if they buy a quint. You are also the one saying that your economic solution to buying the world with a single P.O. is required. I am arguing for the "rest" of the fire service who doesn't print thir own money. You keep taughting your rigs performance. I'll say it again. T-H-A-T I-S N-I-C-E. You needed it, good. You wanted it, great. You got it, now go play with it in the desert like a good boy. Please, I do not care to here about your current rigs capabilities AGAIN. The first 4 times was enough. They are impressive. Lets stay on the issues shall we like you said. Those issues are quints in general and their applications and limitations. As before, be safe and have a good day.
12-31-1998, 03:37 PM #23fcfdFirehouse.com Guest
<I don't know how many EMS calls you all make in the desert> Yes you do zero. We let ems do ems remember? Your job is to respond to the publics request for emergency services. Real emergencies like an insurance company, yo wanna blast into the ER room for a broken finger nail or you feel sick they donít pay.
<It is not your job or mine to tell someone if they are having a true emergency over the phone in all cases.> Dallas still does it as do 50% of the ems force in the country.
< But eventually you will end up in court.> Youíll end up in court no matter what you do, serve the public properly and fairly not the legal system.
< Were you lying then OR now?> Iím always lying. Sure lets go hold hands on non emergencies and not be available for thereal ting.
< Send the pizza guy and a taxi, its your indictment,> Yes it was a defib on each would save 250,000 lives a year according the ACS.
You should care about FDNY basements. You should care about stations all over the country from dept's that want quints to put in them. Ok from now on we will focus on FDNY before we ever buy a rig for us. Will look in th basements, look at the small stations, their trees, etc. WHY?
<You are advocating giants for everyone.> What part of THE SAME SIZE and WEIGHT donít you understand? <EVERYONE?> Where did anyone say that?
<But not everyone can afford those apparatus or need them.> What part of costs less donít you understand? Pickup the phone call your favorite app builder, does their basic quint still cost more than what we bought? Yes. It did 4 years ago too.
<Like I said I don't need a quint here to do an ARFF rigs job.> That certainly is conventional thinking, all the magazines show the FD response to tankers burning and those into cars as wait till the CFR rig arrives. What kind of level of service is that? We simply show up with any rig and go to war.
<They don't run 100' towers with 2000 GPM pumps (except with previously mentioned Ladder 14).> Actually they owned four over 15 years.
<How many runs a yr do you make with those earth shattering quints? 350 a yr for the entire dept. is it? Now run those marvels of life up and down the rode 18 or more times a day like D.C. Engine 10 and Truck 13. How about with 138 Truck in Queens or Engine 290 in East NY? Maybe Task Force 33 or 11 in L.A. is better? What about the south side of Chicago and Squad Co. 5 with their snorkel. >
Funny isnít it all of them own quints! Who cares how many they run, we built ours for us. How many rigs do they run with 250,000 miles on them or 750,000 miles on them. We have several here and the guys wonít give them up for brand new. Why? We donít have a maintenance problem. Smart buying. Oh, they donít average 15 miles per call do they? They donít run 250 miles one way, do they? I guess they couldnít hold up. Oh, almost all our roads are dirt. That wouldnít effect anything would it? Our work fine after 4 years and 50,000 miles. SO what is the point?
<Do that and get a good look at real life problems. Your valves can be field repairable w/out tools in 5 min. or 5 seconds. It doesn't matter when other things keep breaking and you are out of service to assist the public. > It has never happened, not a problem, maybe it is where you live, not here!
<You are the one saying that these rigs are required for everyone>DID NOT
<I am arguing for the "rest" of the fire service who doesn't print their own money. >Iím sure you read it took 3 days to get approval, that they pay for the entire yearly budget in insurance savings every 28 days. Take a lesson in free money you are currently wasting. 33% of the fire service has the worst ISO rating possible. The other 2/3ís averages a Class 5. Lots of money on the table, maybe the fire service is to lazy to bend over and pick it up, we werenít.
<You keep taughting your rigs performance. > You bet we are, everything else is nonsense. Remember the other posts on the board told horror stories of 400 gallon tanks and stupid ladder compliments, ours is a success story that paid for it self.
< now go play with it in the desert like a good boy. > Very profesional and it is ďyoung ladyĒ not boy.
12-31-1998, 07:10 PM #24STA2Firehouse.com Guest
The original post was for effectiveness of quints. Pros and cons. I apologize for the assumption you were not a female. But you do in fact live in desert don't you. But facts are facts. This has turned into a "FCFD is smatter than everyone else" bulletin board. My original postings on here were to point out concerns that should not be overlooked by the buying dept. Dallas still screening with a nurse I don't think is going on. 50% of the dept's doing that I doubt also. YOU brought up that your rigs will work in NY angle. I don't understand the point of your double standard opinions. Take a stand and stick with it. The two FDNY 1984 American La France/LTI's. Only Ladder 14 is still in service with serial # LT8402 and the other was LT8401. Ladder 14 should just now be about 15 yrs old. The previous Sutphens you speak of (I assume) are interesting like the La Frances. You speak highly of them now but when it suited you in an earlier post you said "as were their Sutphens and LTI's all lasted their normal 10 yr life in the CITY."
Your numbers are coming home to roost here. Are they out of service or in service like the people who ride on it think it is. Please inform me of the companies in these other cities mentioned that have quints. FDNY basements are not important. They should matter to you since you have an aversion to comparing your rigs to theirs when it suits you and almost mandating that all quints have to have what yours do and then taking a 180 and getting on me for talking about them. That would make for large vehicles. I know about the cramp angle and how yours is no longer than an FL80. That is not the point. The number of runs matter. Do I need to compare urban streets to rural streets. You know the difference. The one way 250 mile to edge of the sun runs are impressive but they are, thru your own admission, in the desert. Not many stops and starts, cars jumping in front of you and traffic control devices on top of a road surfaces that compare to the moon. Constant RPM's and way fewer stops and then not hard ones. I know CDL traing would fix that though right? Remember the SEAL's (U.S. Navy) K.I.S.S. theory. Have a happy and safe new year and as always be safe.
12-31-1998, 07:37 PM #25
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