1. #1
    Joker
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    Post Small tankers or SUPER tankers???

    Small tankers: 1800-2000gal w/ 500gpm pumps on single axle business class chassis, or....
    SUPER tankers: 2500-3500+gal w/ BIG pumps on tandem axle heavy chassis, or...
    something in between??
    Which set up has worked best for you? Give some pros and cons to each.
    Thanks.


    ------------------
    A friend once told me to shoot first and ask questions later, I was going to ask him why....but I had to shoot him first.

  2. #2
    e33
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    It really depends on alot of factors. First and foremost..how much water do you need to move? What are the capacities of bridges and roads, and the list continues. I cant see why you would want a small tanker personally, why not just get more water on the pumpers? But the chassis is also dependent on load...tandems for more water and such. We are awaiting construction of a 3000 gal tanker on a comercial chassis. This type of chassis is best suited if you plan on only using as a water hauler, if you were planning to carry any crew, step up to smaller custom cabs to keep length down to a resonable size. This is just my general opinion.

  3. #3
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    Unless there is a bridge or weight limit no small tanker will ever touch a well designed big tanker in a shuttle.

    ISO at minimum will want to see 500 gpm for housing for full credit. If water is 1 mile away you'll need at least 5500 gallons on wheels. Plus an attack engine. 2 miles 7700, 3 miles 9900, etc. Gonna take a bunch of little tankers.

  4. #4
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    Take a look at vacuum tankers, for the same size tank they are smaller and faster and can thus increase your "equivelent flow" by a good 25% or more.

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    Cool Why a lil tanker?

    I look at it this way, In our area we have a town that has hydrants but also a lot of area with out. We run automatic 3 company responce on any reported structure fire. In our house we have 2 main engines and a big tanker. The first engine is a Pierce Lance modle with 1500 gal of water on it which is our first run on structure fires. The second engine is a Pierce Dash model with 1000 gal of water and rescue tools for a quick cut job if needed. We also have a 3500 gal tanker. We have it this way because lets say we have a fire outside the hydrant zone when that first engine gets there you know you have 1500 gal of water to use befor that tanker gets there with its 3500 gal. so thats 5000 gal of water to use on a house fire directly off the bat and of course if needed the next due stations have the same so with using big tankers and having that same water on the engine as a smaller tanker you decress the number of units on scene with still having the same water and or more.

    But thats just how i see it

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    Holy thread from the dead batman. Almost ten years old!!!!
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREOFFICER725 View Post
    I look at it this way, In our area we have a town that has hydrants but also a lot of area with out. We run automatic 3 company responce on any reported structure fire. In our house we have 2 main engines and a big tanker. The first engine is a Pierce Lance modle with 1500 gal of water on it which is our first run on structure fires. The second engine is a Pierce Dash model with 1000 gal of water and rescue tools for a quick cut job if needed. We also have a 3500 gal tanker. We have it this way because lets say we have a fire outside the hydrant zone when that first engine gets there you know you have 1500 gal of water to use befor that tanker gets there with its 3500 gal. so thats 5000 gal of water to use on a house fire directly off the bat and of course if needed the next due stations have the same so with using big tankers and having that same water on the engine as a smaller tanker you decress the number of units on scene with still having the same water and or more.

    But thats just how i see it
    I think you win the award for biggest Bump of the year....or decade as it may be.

    Though, I do hope his department has made up their mind by now.

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    bigger is not always better. in large water supply shuttles that we have participated in over the last 10 years some of the smallest tankers ran circles around the big ones. ours is 2000 gal size it works well for us. do an shuttle survey on the tankers. time to fill, time to dump, and road time. its all about what a tankers gpm is in a shuttle. u may have trouble accepting this but check with some of the nations guru's that deal with Big Water shuttles. til later stay safe.

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    Cool welcome back

    just keeping things alive seeing how things have changed over the years

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    With the low amount of personnel we have, rather have 2 big tankers than 4 small ones.

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    so u would rather have 250 gpm than 500 gpm? on average in a well run shuttle will produce 125 gpm each tanker. some well designed tankers will be a little more. size does not matter. !

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    so u would rather have 250 gpm than 500 gpm? on average in a well run shuttle will produce 125 gpm each tanker. some well designed tankers will be a little more. size does not matter. !
    Do the math. Travel time for 2000gal same as 3500gal = higher gpm with less manpower.

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    wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!! fill and dump times u must have forgotten!!! come to new york or better yet take some supply courses. do the math the way iso wants it done. bigger is NOT always better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!! fill and dump times u must have forgotten!!! come to new york or better yet take some supply courses. do the math the way iso wants it done. bigger is NOT always better.
    Right,

    If your fill station and/or water source can't fill the big tankers as fast as they are coming in, then you may actually do better with smaller ones.

    There has been a rash of apparatus bought in my area that is too big/heavy to travel on some roads due to bridges and low branches and such. Its incredible to see a dept spend $400k on a truck and only realize after they take delivery of it that it won't go under a bridge leading to half of the town. Going around adds 10min extra to response times.

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    also what is the gpm your tanker will contribute in a shuttle???? its a 3500 gallon tanker with 1 2 1/2" fill line and a 6" round dump! it takes 10 minutes to fill and another 10 minutes to dump 90 % of its load. travel time is calculated by formula. a 2000 gallon tanker has 2 - 2 1/2" fills on rear and a 10" newton dump. it fills in 1 1/2 minutes and dumps 90 % of the load in 1 1/2 minutes travel time is the same. now for the math follow closely! the 3500 gallon tanker with no drive time. with me yet or should i back up. 10 minute fill plus 10 minute dump = 20 minutes! 2000 gallon tanker with no drive time 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 minutes & no drive time = 3 minutes
    3500 gallons divided by 20 minutes = 175 gpm
    2000 gallons divided by 3 minutes = 666.66 gpm
    get a calculator and check the math. now if u consider drive time in here, the 3500 tanker is a 300hp with a 9 sp.tranny vs the 2000 tanker with 330hp with an automatic. the larger is slower? as soon as u throw some obstacles in such as turning around on a narrow back road or at the dump site or fill site it'll changed the gpm the tanker is capable of. the smaller tanker is more agile all around than a 10 wheeler.
    the 3500 gallon tanker used above does exist in our county and i'm sure there are alot more around this country. not all large tankers are the same as we do have have a few that will be close in gpm as the small ones. as for the 2000 gallon tanker there are several within 10 miles of our station.

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    Default ISO Calcs

    ISO Credit:

    Both tanker have 10" sq dumps and can offload at 1000 gpm, both tankers have ldh tank refills and can fill at 1000 gpm - 5 mile drive

    The 2000 gallon tanker gets a credit of 136.9 gpm

    The 3500 gallon tanker gets a credit of 195 gpm

    ISO makes the tankers back up to the dump tank, whether you have side dumps or not.

    I have a 2000 gallon on a single axle - very manuverable but manuverabilty is less important with side dumps.

    We also have a 2500 gallon on a twin screw, the neighbors have 3000 gallons on a twin screw. If I had my choice - we would sell the 2000 gallon tanker and buy a 3000 gallon tanker.

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    wrong do tests or drills and u could see the results to many no it alls on here as well as morons that think they know bye!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Take a look at vacuum tankers, for the same size tank they are smaller and faster and can thus increase your "equivelent flow" by a good 25% or more.
    Ummm.... no. For the same tank size, a vacuum tanker, being round, will be longer than an equivalent oval, T, or square. Nearby department has a 3000 gallon vacuum tanker, we have a 3000 gallon T-tank. The difference in length... over 4 feet.

    The speed factor only works if you're drafting from an open source, loading from hydrants is the same. Dumping with a vacuum is slightly faster than with a standard 10" rear dump, but almost too fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!! fill and dump times u must have forgotten!!! come to new york or better yet take some supply courses. do the math the way iso wants it done. bigger is NOT always better.
    Fill and dump times for the same amount of water, no matter if its carried on two smaller tankers or one larger tanker is the same. With two smaller tankers, you now have to have to operators and you have an additional truck clogging up the fill and dump sites.

    The biggest argument against large tankers is that added length contributes to decreased manuevaribility, which can increase shuttle times. A properly designed large tanker can overcome this limitation. Our 3000 gallon tanker is shorter than a neighboring departments 1800 gallon. Most weight limits are also per axle, so a 3000 gallon tanker spread over three axles will have a lower per axle weight than a 2000 gallon single-axle, PLUS you have another set of tires and brakes to stop with.

    Too many departments order these tankers and try to make them do too many things, ending up with a tanker that doesn't do its most important job well. A tanker's first job is to shuttle water, but many departments add crew cabs and larger pumps (with longer pumper panels) and even top-mount pumps, resulting in a truck so long that you can't get it in and out of the dump and fill sites easily.
    Last edited by simpleguy68; 05-18-2009 at 11:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    wrong do tests or drills and u could see the results to many no it alls on here as well as morons that think they know bye!
    Is being a moron quantified by a lack of spelling skills?

    If small tankers work for you, then do it.

    It doesn't work for us quite so much. Doubling the tankers needed also doubles the manpower needed to operate them, which we do not have. So do you want to put 2000gal tankers on the road or the same number of 4000gal tankers? Manpower is our greatest limitation.

    Since we run bigger tankers, we spec them out properly. 5" fills with 12" dumps. Tankers are filled with minimum of 5"LDH.

    You mention a 2 1/2 fill and a 10 minute dump time. If you had spec'd the tanker out properly you might not have this problem.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

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    Shall we reword the original post to read a "PROPRELY DESIGNED big or small" tanker?"

    Anyone and spec a pile of poop and and argue that it doesn't do it's job well. That's not the point of the post here.
    Last edited by Sleeper6; 05-18-2009 at 02:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    also what is the gpm your tanker will contribute in a shuttle???? its a 3500 gallon tanker with 1 2 1/2" fill line and a 6" round dump! it takes 10 minutes to fill and another 10 minutes to dump 90 % of its load. travel time is calculated by formula. a 2000 gallon tanker has 2 - 2 1/2" fills on rear and a 10" newton dump. it fills in 1 1/2 minutes and dumps 90 % of the load in 1 1/2 minutes travel time is the same. now for the math follow closely! the 3500 gallon tanker with no drive time. with me yet or should i back up. 10 minute fill plus 10 minute dump = 20 minutes! 2000 gallon tanker with no drive time 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 minutes & no drive time = 3 minutes
    3500 gallons divided by 20 minutes = 175 gpm
    2000 gallons divided by 3 minutes = 666.66 gpm
    get a calculator and check the math. now if u consider drive time in here, the 3500 tanker is a 300hp with a 9 sp.tranny vs the 2000 tanker with 330hp with an automatic. the larger is slower? as soon as u throw some obstacles in such as turning around on a narrow back road or at the dump site or fill site it'll changed the gpm the tanker is capable of. the smaller tanker is more agile all around than a 10 wheeler.
    the 3500 gallon tanker used above does exist in our county and i'm sure there are alot more around this country. not all large tankers are the same as we do have have a few that will be close in gpm as the small ones. as for the 2000 gallon tanker there are several within 10 miles of our station.

    Jeez, talk about comparing apples to oranges. A 3500gal tank with a single 2.5 fill and a 6" dump VS a 2000 gal tank with 2 2.5 fills and a 10" dump? And smaller powerplant with bigger tank which contributes to longer travel times since the power to weight ratio is completely different? On what planet does this make a good comparison?

    You give a lot of information based on what YOU have, and one of the things you have is a 3500gal tank that was NOT set up properly with a large enough fill or dump.

    So because you have a screwed up tanker the numbers you report must hold up for the rest of us? Nope, I don't think so.

    Kinda childish calling folks here morons based on your tiny little slice of the fire service.
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

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    do we have to explain it further? not all 3500 gallon tankers are the same nor are 2000 gallon tankers. in my original post what gpm does your tanker contribute in a shuttle. not all tankers fill and dump at same rate thats why the question what does your tanker contribute in a shuttle GPM! 3500 gpm for one minute then its 25 minutes before it contributes another 3500 gpm. when u time your tanker for fill or dump times, do u figure it when the valves opens and closes? tell me how do u do it. we do it this way, cones at 200' from fill or dump sites, times start then, drive in, position, hook, start fill or dump, when deemed full or empty by site officer, shut valves, and proceed 200' to cones, whether its the start cones or if its end cones for a drive thru site. road times are calculated, which can be disputed, performance issues, drivers,etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by westofd1 View Post
    do we have to explain it further? not all 3500 gallon tankers are the same nor are 2000 gallon tankers. in my original post what gpm does your tanker contribute in a shuttle. not all tankers fill and dump at same rate thats why the question what does your tanker contribute in a shuttle GPM! 3500 gpm for one minute then its 25 minutes before it contributes another 3500 gpm. when u time your tanker for fill or dump times, do u figure it when the valves opens and closes? tell me how do u do it. we do it this way, cones at 200' from fill or dump sites, times start then, drive in, position, hook, start fill or dump, when deemed full or empty by site officer, shut valves, and proceed 200' to cones, whether its the start cones or if its end cones for a drive thru site. road times are calculated, which can be disputed, performance issues, drivers,etc.
    FOLLOW ME

    You can spec a larger tanker with more hp and gearing to match. The end result is that a 3000-4000 gallon truck can MATCH the speed of a smaller tanker.
    Manuverability is the only factor where a smaller truck wins.
    The MATH IS PRETTY FRIGGIN SIMPLE!

    @ the same fill speed of 1000 gallons 2000 is full in 2min versus 3:30 for a 3500. 90 seconds is within the variable in all calculations.If it takes 1 min to dump 1000/ 2000 in 2min 3500 in 3.5 min. Another 90 seconds. 3 min load and dump for almost twice the water. IS 3 MINUTES FASTER THAN STARTING ALL OVER AND MAKING ANOTHER TRIP????

    Lets say 20 min per trip. it will take just under 7 trips for you to catch the larger tanker.


    The math aint that hard.

    Stay Safe

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    follow this if u can read what is the gpm your tanker will do in a shuttle? did u follow the question. i dont know what perfect state u r in but around here not all fire depts have new equipment. theres tankers around here that still date to the late 1970's & early 1980's.

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