What is the role of a rescue/pumper?
Should it be intended to replace a Class A engine and a dedicated rescue truck?
If you need both a rescue truck (water rescue, extrication, rope rescue, ems gear) and a class A engine, is the solution a rescue/pumper (thereby eliminating an engine and heavy rescue)?
To me, after going through what can and can't be done on a rescue/pumper with several manufacturers, I'm not impressed with the sacrifices which must be made. I just don't believe that the "best of both worlds" is possible. A decent engine, and a decent heavy rescue make more sense to me than an awesome 1-in-all $550,000 truck.
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11-02-1999, 10:02 PM #1Resq14Firehouse.com Guest
11-03-1999, 09:59 AM #2STA2Firehouse.com Guest
As usual I'll throw in my 2 cents. Resce/Pumpers in my opinion are for 2 or 3 specific purposes. 1.) Small to medium size departments which would have difficulty justifying or manning both an Engine Co. and a Rescue Co. apparatus. This type apparatus, if speced to their needs the right way, can work out well. 2.) The other type decision is for any department that wants an Engine Co. apparatus with as much compartment space as possible. With all the technical rescue needs today it is necessary to have as much room as possible to carry all necessary equipment. I do agree that you will never get 100% of of an Engine and Rescue Co. together on 1 rig. There will be sacrifices and those need to be weighed carefully. As I said I believe that small departments with manning issues or those dept.'s that want more compartment space. It doesn't mean that you have to fill it up, just have the room for growth. 3.) Large dept.'s. have a need/possible need. FDNY runs 2 rescue/ pumper rigs for 2 of thier Squad Co.'s. I agree completely with their use because of the vast extra Truck Co. and Rescue Co. equipment they carry. They need the room. Other dept.'s that are larger can also benefit by having these rigs in outlying areas to allow them to carry Truck Co. and limited Rescue Co. tools and the like if they don't have a Truck Co. in house with them. They can get started if necessary until the Truck Co. arrives. It also allows for routine extrications to be carried out also while the Rescue Co. or Squad Co. is enroute. This allows your average pin-job to be handled by the respective company whose area it accured in and keeps the Rescue Co. available for other incidents. If its an involved pin then they come on in, but the Rescue/pumper crew is atleast started and has the basics covered. Just my thoughts. Be safe.
11-03-1999, 10:21 AM #3K AFirehouse.com Guest
Why do you suppose FDNY buys them (squads)if they are for small towns and cities without big heavy rescues?
11-03-1999, 10:31 AM #4raricciutiFirehouse.com Guest
We run one engine (soon to be two) that could be termed a rescue/pumper. Ours are designed primarily as a structural pumper, but carry a small amount of rescue equipment, such as a combination Hurst tool, step chocks, chains, etc. It is by no means designed to replace our rescue truck, just to act as a first response vehicle. Fairly minor MVA's with jammed doors and such can be handled by one unit. Serious incidents are handled by the rescue truck (dispatched first if we know or suspect the incident is serious). Another advantage of the "rescue/pumper" is simply more compartment space, as noted in the above posts. Most fire departments are seeing a decline in structural fires, and an increase in other, sometimes non-traditional incidents. The additional compartment space allows for EMS, hazmat, salvage, rescue, metering & monitoring equipment, or whatever your department needs to fulfill it mission. Stuff always expands to fill available space - I'd suggest getting as much compartment space as your station, road, and budget contraints will allow. Good luck!
R.A. Ricciuti, Firefighter
Mt. Lebanon Fire Department
11-03-1999, 10:58 AM #5Todd TrimbleFirehouse.com Guest
Our "Rescue-21" would likely fit your description of a rescue/pumper. It carries our extrication gear and cribbing. It also carries limited supplies for EMS, Haz-Mat and tech/water rescue. It has a 750gal/1000gpm water capability with two preconnected crosslays and foam capability. We run it first for MVAs, car fires, farm rescue, etc. With our squad and/or the ALS rig from the city, it can pretty well handle those situations. We also use it as our second EMS wagon if the squad is already out on something.
No, it's not a replacement for our engine. I guess we look at it as as a rescue truck that we had enough room left over on to add water.
Fairland Volunteer Fire Department
11-03-1999, 11:13 AM #6SBrooksFirehouse.com Guest
Our station houses a ladder truck and a heavy rescue squad. We also have a 'rescue pumper' (A lot more rescue than pumper) that serves as a heavy squad when ours is out of service. Additionally, it gives us the ability to have water flowing ability in our station, usually for nuisance fires, but occasionally for house fires near the station when the next due is going to be delayed.
I would venture to guess that FDNY did not buy them for car accidents, but for fires, hazmat and tech. rescue. At fires, the role of the rescue company differs from that of ladder and engine companies. With a city the size of New York, as busy as they are, the Rescues aren't able to effectively respond on every alarm. I believe the squads in NYC have a second piece for hazmat and technical rescue, and the personnel assigned to them have additional training beyond that of the engine company and ladder company members. Which brings me to my final point....
Its not the apparatus, but the firefighters on the apparatus.
11-03-1999, 11:21 AM #7SBrooksFirehouse.com Guest
But in reply to the original post, I agree 100%. In my situation, I'd much rather have a good KISS engine, and a good toolbox of a squad. I don't worry about rolling out of the door with one and hoping that the other makes it out if I need it. I always roll out with a squad, and there are proabably 5-6 engine companies within 5 miles of my station. However, if I were stationed somewhere a bit more isolated, I'd probably want the ability to handle car fires and other accident scene hazards on my own....
So maybe i'd put a small tank and pump on my squad.
Or suppose I run with a bit more rural department, perhaps with very few members trained in technical rescue. Perhaps there's a regional technical rescue team (agricultural, industrial, trench, confined space, water, etc.), but I'd like to be able to handle your standard car accident. So I put a tool and some cribbing on one of my wagons.
You can see where this leads....
11-03-1999, 10:14 PM #8STA2Firehouse.com Guest
K.A. I assume your post was in reply to mine. Allow me to further explain. If you read my post I said that large departments like FDNY could and DO HAVE a use for rescue/pumper apparatus. I advocate their use,like in FDNY, for the following reasons:
1.) To carry Truck Co. tools for the times when the Squad Co. beats the 1st. due Truck Co. in or are given a traditional Truck Co. assignment.
2.) To carry Rescue Co. equipment to ATLEAST begin extrication on MVA's, industrial incidents, etc.
3.) For growth for additional technical rescue/haz-mat equipment that will surely be added to the Squad Co.'s list of responsibilities and inventory.
4.) Rescue/pumper apparatus for LARGE CITIES that have LARGE areas to protect. There will always be outlying areas that will not be afforded Engine, Truck and Rescue Co. coverage. These rigs will allow for the extra equipment for the companies to atleast begin until the Truck or Rescue Co. arrives.
So in closing all I can say is quite simply, read the post completely to avoid misunderstandings. Be safe.
11-04-1999, 07:21 PM #9FireGuyNeilFirehouse.com Guest
I have come to like the rescue pumper concept, but only in certain departments and applications. One thing is for sure and that is you can't replace a heavy rescue and a custom pumper with just a rescue pumper and not leave something out. If you have a light or medium sized rescue then this just might work. When you try to buy a truck that does it all you usually end up with a unit that has restrictions due to it's size.
Two departments in my county have purchased these units and had done it with much sucess. Both departments run this rig first out on vehicle accidents. (which is a majority of the calls for both)
Both have opted for smaller water tanks (one 750 & one 500) to give them more compartment space for equipment. Both carry at least 1200' of 5" hose for supply line. Both only run this rig as a first out Engine in their hydranted areas. Both station has a second Engine and the other an Engine-Tanker that they run first out in the hydrant areas. In our county we have a list of required equipment to meet certification as either a Rescue (light/meduim) or a Heavy Rescue. Both of these rigs are certified as Rescues. Unfortinately our county has no Rescue/Engine classification. Both had met medium rescue standards under the old state certififcation. One was built by Saulsbury and the other by Central States but most maunfactors now build them. If you have any questions or want anymore information on either department or their apparatus please feel free to contact me. FGN
11-04-1999, 09:04 PM #10ProfVolFirehouse.com Guest
We run a combination pumper/rescue vehicle. We are a small volunteer dept and our main rescue function is vehicle wrecks. The pumper is ISO equipped plus carries jaws, cutters, ram (preconnected), 20 kw hydraulic generator, electric reels, manual hand tools and power tools(sawall, air chisel, K12),cribbing, ropes, etc. We have 1000 gal tank, 1750 pump.1000 5" hose. The pumper is first out for structural, vehicle fires and wrecks, as well water supply for other departments. This pumper allows for flexibility with limited manpower. But it is not design for heavy rescue (not enough room). Even now, the hose bed is high, thanks goodness for low preconnects. It works for us but again we are not set up for heavy rescue.
11-07-1999, 05:33 PM #11RockiesFirehouse.com Guest
We can only carry 2400 gallons of water on our fleet of rescue pumper tenders due to the space need to carry all the heavy rescue gear.
The trucks have 10 man long four door cabs with 7 scba, 6 x 6 chassis, roof mounted thermal imager with a head up display for the driver and officer, two VCR in the cab to record the three radio transmitting imagers or watch movies, rear vision camera with back talk intercom, in cab minerature pump panel between the driver and officer, no exterior pump panels, in cab industrial micro wave ovens, 20 cubic feet of food storage, coffee makers, 12 gallon drinking water tanks, refrigerator and ice makers, 10 flash lights, etc.
The pump is 1500 gpm, with full pump and roll, CAFS, 45 gallon foam tanks, 90 feet of squirrel tail hard suctions, three low lift strainers, three 10 inch drops controlled from the cab, three deck guns, two remote controlled, one manual and a portable gun, split beds of 3000 feet of supply line, 1800 feet of attack line, 8 color coded preconnects with custom smooth bore automatic nozzles, all beds 24 to 30 inches off the ground...3-400' and the rest 150', 6 and 12 foot piercing nozzles, 6 ground ladders, 6 custom hooks, 3 saws, 4-6 gated inch inlets, 3500 gallon drop tank, poly bodies, and water level lights on 15 foot mast.
25 KW pto generator, light mast, 11 floodlights, 5 cord reels, dual 220 volt hydraulic pumps to supply 150 foot hydraulic reels with all tools preconnected off the front bumper ready to go, gas hydraulic back up pumps, air reels with air bags and air chisel ready to walk off with, tons of cribbing, everything required for ISO credit as a ladder and engine.
We ordered them fully equipped from the factory with everything mounted in custom mounts.
11-09-1999, 12:47 AM #12Resq14Firehouse.com Guest
That's one heck of a truck! I didn't realize Winnebago, E-One, and Home Depot had merged into a single-source fire apparatus manufacturer...
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