11-11-1999, 10:32 AM #1LT 1E4Firehouse.com Guest
Quint 's vs Engine's and Ladder trucks
Would like to hear some comments on Quint's.
My department is buying them left and right.
I personally don't like them. Small water tanks, limited space for supply hose, a pain in the @$$ to load hose onto, high maintenance, etc...
11-11-1999, 04:00 PM #2FF McDonaldFirehouse.com Guest
This is my opinion, and my opinion only....
I think that too many Fire Departments are buying quints to try and appeal to the Mayor and Council, while they are short changing themselves on the fireground.
I believe that while it can be very advantageous to have an elevated aerial device on a pumper, such as a Snozzle, or a Squrt, I don't feel that it it in the best interests of a department to attempt to combine the roles of two separate apparatus in one vehicle.
9 times out of 10, when a Ladder Truck is needed on the fireground, it must be in a specific position on the fireground to make the best use of its aerial device. If this vehicle is near the water supply (the Hydrant, or pond, or porta-tank) it probably isn't in a very good position to use it's aerial.
On the other hand, if you need to use the aerial device to make rescues, and or apply master streams, it can't always be feasable to pump-- because you are a significant distance from the water supply.
My feelings are these- a quint can be useful. It's nice to have that aerial device when you need it, and you happen to be in position on the fireground when you can utilize all aspects of your apparatus. But these departments that have totally changed over to a "Quint Concept" will possibly find fault with their thinking in the future.
I have seen many pictures from St. Louis, where they have a quint pumping, and a quint laddering the building. How much did they pay for these apparatus?? Aren't they essentially still performing Ladder Co., and Truck Co. operations-- and all that with a very expensive ladder sitting atop BOTH pieces of apparatus.
I feel that you can function just as good with a two piece company (Engine and Ladder).
This is my opinion.
I don't really feel that the other factors fall into play. If you want a quint with a lot of supply hose, you write that feature in to the specs-- if you don't want a pain in the a$@# time loading hose-- you find a manufacturer who can build you a truck where it won't be a problem
Again-- these are only my opinions.
11-11-1999, 06:14 PM #3mikeyFirehouse.com Guest
St. Louis FD uses the quint concept and it apparently works very well for them. They are going to be getting 30 new 75' quints in the near future to replace the 50' and 75' ones they got in 1986. They also operate with 4(I believe) "Hook and Ladders"(their terminology) that are 100'plus. I just took a short class given by a St. Louis fire fighter on quint concepts. The way they operate would never work for the area I work in, but it works for them very well....
They sent at least 4 quints on all 1st alarms. Each crew has specific duties that they are responsible for depennding on the order they arrive on the scene. Very detailed SOP's that they follow to make the whole thing work. I'm not saying that their way is for everyone, but it looks like a good program for them.
11-11-1999, 06:56 PM #4SBrooksFirehouse.com Guest
Hey I don't have it in front of me, but I believe the ISO Fire Suppression Rating Schedule requires each ladder truck to have a main that is as tall as the tallest building in its response area, or 100' whichever is less, as well as specifying certain equipment, particularly a 40' 35' 28' 20 and a 16' ladder. (not absolutely sure on which ladders, but it's quite a bit more than the NFPA complement, and it does include a 40' ladder) If you don't have the full complement or full height, you don't get full credit. I haven't seen too many quints with such a nice complement of ladders as well as having a full size main. Also, you get half truck credit for each quint so you have to have twice as many. (or just count them as trucks...)
Ask the guys from Richmond what happened to their truck work...
11-11-1999, 07:53 PM #5LT 1E4Firehouse.com Guest
They don't let me buy 'em. I just have to work off of 'em. If they did let me be in charge, the quint's would be history. FF Mcdonald, I agree that one apparatus can not function as well as two, those being pump or ladder truck. Please note the "etc..." in my post
11-11-1999, 10:34 PM #6FyredUpFirehouse.com Guest
My career department has a quint.
Quints are the answer to a question the fire service never asked. It was asked by the penny pinchers who want to cut staff and rigs. Most of them suck. Particularly if you place one or 2 into a traditional engine / truck set-up department. The quint crew in that scenario never knows what they are til they get their orders at the scene. They lack full truck equipment, particularly ladders, and they have horrible supply hose bed configurations. If this hasn't been obvious enough. I don't like them!!
It really only works when you quint concept it like St. Louis. Everything is a quint so you always have the right righ there first.
11-11-1999, 11:56 PM #7e33Firehouse.com Guest
A quint...concept= combination of pumper and aerial essentially...right?
I laugh when the new quint on the show floor has a 28 and a 16' ladder...and thats it! Damn...what a crime. We are shortchanging something here...i agree. You need at least one truck co dedicated to that role..or something to carry the crap that wont fit in the quint. Larry may argue saying that you can get a truck built to do anything (Fallon) and ISO this and that, i am looking at what most depts don't consder, thats ISO and simple stuff (Like Sean said)...they are building on tradition and typical models...so lets look at this from a reality standpoint.
11-12-1999, 10:50 AM #8LT 1E4Firehouse.com Guest
We have one with a 150 gal. water tank on it!
What were they thinking when they bought the piece of junk? It's true that it's has lots and lots of pretty lights and chrome wheels but good grief...
I am wrong, it's a 200 gal. tank. still, good grief...
I think the bottom line on quint's is that where we used to man a ladder truck with four and a pumper with four they now man a quint with six and eliminate either the ladder truck or the pumper. They're telling the taxpayers that they're saving their money but they're doing it on our backs and at the expense of fire protection to the taxpayer. The point of this is that you now have six people doing the job of eight. Looks good on the mayors budget ledger but it makes it tougher on us.
[This message has been edited by LT 1E4 (edited November 12, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by LT 1E4 (edited November 12, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by LT 1E4 (edited November 12, 1999).]
11-12-1999, 12:41 PM #9STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
It appears that I have been misunderstood, atleast in part.
11-12-1999, 01:05 PM #10STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
It appears that I have been misunderstood, atleast in part. E33, if you remember I was the one going round and round with someone about how a Quint is limited and CAN'T do both Engine and Truck work equally and how those (Fallon) rigs were not needed by everyone.
I personally believe that quints are, for most departments, manpower lessening devices that give a false sense of capability to the citizens and the department. The only exception is the department who has EVERY rig in their fleet as a quint. In St Louis it appears to works great with an even split 50%/50% on 50' and 75' quints. Everyone, per SOP, has an assignement on the fireground and knows how to spot depending on how they arrive as to whether they'll be the Engine Co. or the Truck Co.
Now take the average department who has only one (1) quint. They buy this rig that can do "both" jobs and try and put everything in the world on it. Then after its in service it runs out the door on its first run with a crew of three (3). What are they supposed to do on the scene? The bosses there are asking for lackluster performance because of the nature of the rig. Put 8-10 man crews on them and what do you have?
1 Incident Commander, 1 Apparatus Operator and 1 crew on a hoseline and 1 doing truck work. But where do you spot the rig? I know, you can stretch hose but not ladders. I agree, but lets be real. Spot for the main ladder and use the hose you carry to make the stretch to the fire area. But even then that is with a 8-10 man crew and IF you arrive 1st. in. Now how about 2nd. in. Now you have to lay from the plug. No problem (Hoping the 1st. due left the front of the building open for you to spot)if its a forward lay. Try and reverse lay out from the 1st. due and pump the plug. No problem, but that "versatility" you built into the rig is sitting 400' or so away pumping the plug. These are my thoughts on quints. Either do it all the way or not at all.
Now for the groundladders. Pleeeeeeease. As E33 said NFPA keeps lowering the ground ladder footage. Most people say great, more room for other stuff. BUT, ISO still wants a certain ground ladder footage and the NFPA and ISO versions don't match I believe. Most importantly though, how about your citizens that expect you to be able to get in a 3rd. floor window to get them out. You will only be cheating them and yourself. You can only put part of the Engine Co. tools and part of the Truck Co. tools on a Quint - Not all.
Just my thoughts. Be safe.
11-12-1999, 01:15 PM #11e33Firehouse.com Guest
LOL..damn i knew that would happen, i was referring to Larry Stevens...sorry bout that!!
11-12-1999, 02:01 PM #12SBrooksFirehouse.com Guest
Hey Larry, we know it's you because you sign your name to your posts! (unlike that other larry)
Anyway, I believe St. Louis is getting rid of its 50' Telesquirts in favor of the 75' quints. They still have a few 'hook&ladders' as mentioned earlier, which are almost 'real' trucks...they've got a little bit of water I believe.
My county has traditionally used engines & trucks, however the county manager has been sold on buying some quints, with the theory that you're getting 2 for the price of 1. The details haven't been worked out yet, but I believe the crews will know from dispatch what they're going to act as. I looked at the quints they want to purchase, a 1500/300 75' Ferrarra, and, of course, came away dissappointed. Two crosslays were the only attack lines I could find, and a split hose bed with dual hose chutes. So in a county famous for garden apartments, you've got two 200' crosslays, and that's it. Oh, and 75' ladder that cant reach from the street. Oh, and in a county where most of the trucks are just busses for more engine company firefighters. Oh, and where there is already a problem with companies not laying out, with three inch and an open bed.
WE still have 106', 50', 35', 35', 30', 30', 20, 16', 14', 12', 12', 10' ladders, I'd like to see that on a quint! (you could probably do it with LA Counties new quints, or probably Fallons )
11-12-1999, 02:26 PM #13e33Firehouse.com Guest
Sean..thats an impressive ladder compliment!
11-12-1999, 02:39 PM #14STA2Firehouse.com Guest
No problem E33. I just flashbacks to the great debate from about a yr. ago about Fallon. SBrooks who are they looking at giving the quints to up there? What a waste of a traditional department. Be safe.
11-12-1999, 02:54 PM #15INDY FIREFirehouse.com Guest
A box assignment in Indy is 3 Engine Companys, and 2 Ladder Companys. SOPS are simple, and everyone knows exactly what they need to do. In other words dedicated Ladder Companys work well here.
11-12-1999, 05:16 PM #16SBrooksFirehouse.com Guest
Re: Ladder complement; Hey, that's why they call them 'ladder trucks'; We try and use them all (except the 50') whenever we can.
Re: Quints in PG County; Which stations they'll be assigned to is all rumor and speculation now, but they are supposed to go to the 'career' stations, and in fact probably go to stations that don't even have a ladder truck now. I don't think that there are any plans to go to a 'total quint' concept, just to replace a ladder and an engine in a station with only one crew anyway. Stations I've heard that might get them include 29-Silver Hill, 38-Chapel Oaks, 5 Captitol Heights, 32-Allentown Road, and perhaps 22-Tuxedo-Cheverly.
11-13-1999, 01:57 AM #17FF McDonaldFirehouse.com Guest
Can somebody clue me in to the conversation that is going on? I have tried to follow it from post to post, and I'm going nuts ( I follow the conversation on the Quints-- what is everyone else talkin' about?? )
11-13-1999, 01:18 PM #18resqbFirehouse.com Guest
These gentlemen are stating that you have to give up either water, or ladders, or hosebed but definitely manpower if you go to quints to replace an engine and a ladder. My dept. has a 75' quint w/ 1500gpm/500 water. It's housed with an engine co. total of 6 men. Dept. needs to cut OT so it closes engine without giving truck xtra man. Therefore we find in my town that the cost of life is now around $22 an hour/man that need to be called in. We've now lost 3 people, one most definitely due to a lack of manpower at the right time. The guys pulled a woman out but the men who did it were from a farther away station. This was a workable patient in EMS terms. I'm just sick over this. If you are going to replace two pieces with one, don't shortchange the manpower. My part in this debate is now over.
11-13-1999, 02:52 PM #19FyredUpFirehouse.com Guest
Station 2 I have a question for you. What career department do you believe would ever put 8-10 guys on a quint? Let alone 5 or 6? Of course maybe that was your point. Pennies pinched at the expense of the lives and property of the citizens.
My career FD has one quint, it is staffed with 5, Hahahahahahaha, 2 are assigned to an ambulance. So if the ambulance is out the quint responds with 3. So now our half a million dollar wonder truck is reduced to a 3 man engine, or ladder, but certainly not a multi-purpose quint as intended. In fact this rig runs as the second engine for the entire city. If it goes on the first alarm in its own territory another ladder is sent on the assignment.
Quints only work where everything is a quint and assignments are clearly spelled out by SOG, or in a small enough department where the one ladder is a quint.
11-13-1999, 03:52 PM #20STA2Firehouse.com Guest
FyredUp you got my point. NO department I know regularly staffs a quint with 8-10 members. That, in my opinion, is the only way to even begin to see the most slight benefit of a quint. Notice I said slight benefit because you'll never make a quint equal a full Engine Co. and a full Truck Co.
on the fireground. Thus endith the sermon. be safe.
11-13-1999, 06:40 PM #21FF McDonaldFirehouse.com Guest
OKAY GUYS--- WORK WITH ME.....
I follow the topic on the quints.
I am trying to follow the side conversation that is going on at the tail end of some of the posts.
Sorry, I guess I am butting in to someone's private joke.
Really though, I do know what the thread is talking about in regard to quints.
11-14-1999, 09:54 AM #22Ken HanksFirehouse.com Guest
My department will be replacing it's 105' rear mount LTI with a Pierce 105' rear mount quint early next year.
We will most likely be responding it as a ladder truck that has a fire pump. The idea is for it to be able to supply a ladder pipe.
Our on duty staffing is 2 engines (1 officer, 2 ff's each) and the ladder (2 ff's). When we need to supply the ladder pipe, we usually have to wait for call back personnel on the 3rd engine or mutual aid.
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