1. #1
    fyrmedik
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Rescue Pumper vs Heavy Rescue

    We are a small suburban volunteer department that runs about 115 calls/year, with 75-80% being rescue calls. Our fire area is very small, but our rescue area includes most of the major routes into the city, and 70% of the surrounding county. We are also interested in getting into technical rescue as well. We are in the market for a new rescue truck. Some members want to buy a rescue pumper to replace an already overloaded medium rescue and an aging pumper, while some members want to see us buy a heavy rescue to replace the rescue already in use. We have three volunteer departments and a career station, all within a 3-5 mile radius, as our mutual aid back-up. Any ideas on how to settle this arguement? Can anyone provide us with specs for a heavy rescue and rescue pumper?

    [This message has been edited by fyrmedik (edited December 08, 1999).]

    [This message has been edited by fyrmedik (edited December 08, 1999).]

  2. #2
    SBrooks
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    Hey, we'll sell you a Rescue pumper...much better rescue than it is a pumper, but if you only use your crosslays most of the time, It'd do the job. Anyway, sounds like a rescue pumper would do your job better than a squad, you can take one driver and crew and have all the equipment you'd need for 999 out of 1000 extrications (except the ambulance). If you want to get into technical rescue, I'd recommend a trailer or a van...most of that stuff shouldn't be out where everyone could get them, lest all your rope stuff and hand tools develops legs. I'd put some stuff on your first out pieces, so you can begin initial operations, but the really heavy duty stuff should probably stay locked up until you drill on it or need it for a call. You might consider going regional with your technical rescue team...not too many departments have the experience or interest to staff a full service technical rescue team, perhaps your station could host the collapse team, the next station could host the vertical team, etc. etc.

  3. #3
    MetalMedic
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    Question

    My department will face this issue in a couple years. We have an aging "equipment" truck that will be replaced. Our "crash" truck is a 1-ton with 250GPM PTO pump, 300 gallons of water and is overloaded with rescue equipment. I am toying with the idea of combining the two to make one unit. My question is, can we have a rescue pumper, equipment truck and a mobile air unit all wrapped into one rig? I don't want to see us end up with something that is overloaded and not efficient at any of its intended uses.

    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  4. #4
    Romania
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    I've gotta tell you that I am a major fan of rescue pumpers (a.k.a. squads around here). Squads give you alot of vesitlity, especially where manpower and drivers are limited. A squad can carry quite abit of your truck and rescue tools and bring a pump and water to the scene. You will need a second truck to carry all of the specialized gear for haz-mat, confined space, etc. if you'll be doing that sort of special ops out of you squad, but a good squad can run as your first out rig on 90% of your calls, maybe substituting a smaller rig for EMS runs. Many companies make really good rescue pumpers, but I like the looks of pierce's the best, lots of storage and accesiblity for the size.


    ------------------
    Alan Romania, CEP
    romania@uswest.net
    IAFF Local 3449

    My Opinions do not reflect the opnions of the IAFF or Local 3449.



  5. #5
    FireGuyNeil
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    Post

    I also like Rescue Pumpers myself. The thing I have found is this. It's hard to replace a real Heavy Rescue with a rescue pumper. There just isn't enough room for all of your equipment. I feel all rescue pumpers should meet NFPA for class A engines and also meet their state, county, or governing bodies standards for light/meduim duty rescue. If you run alot of vehilce accidents and can(or only want to) respond with one piece a rescue pumper may be the way to go. If you have a heavy rescue now consider all the options such as a support piece, attach piece, or a rescue with water and a pump. The options are endless. You need to design a piece to perfrom all of your tasks and still be cost and responce effective. Hope you make out well. FNG!

  6. #6
    resqb
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    Post

    Hey metalmedic, go with a rescue pumper and leave the cascade, "urban interface", and some of the rarely used rescue equipment on the "crash truck". It works for the vol. dept. I used to belong to.

    Fyrmedic, it will surely depend on attitudes in your dept. as to what you are going to get. My opinion, if no one else around has a heavy rescue with all the tech resq stuff on it go for it. BUT without knowing the financial stuff you're facing I can't give you a firm answer. Please stay away from the we need a bigger truck than the next town, that's just sophomoric bull. Get what your company will need for the next ten years. And check the used stuff, there's some nice equipment out there with low miles thats in fair shape. Good luck....

  7. #7
    fireferret
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    Post

    One solution that may be perfect for use is the rear pump rescue pumper. They're similar in design to your heavy rescues (and most often look like them), but they have a PTO or gearbox driven pump back between the frame behind the rear axle. Usually, attack lines are carried in the hose bed, but I've seen some creative crosslay/speedlay designs. The pump panel is usally on the back or in the driver's side rear compartment. This leaves a lot more room for rescue equipment and is well suited to a department that needs a RESCUE/pumper more than a rescue/PUMPER. Cortlandville Fire Deparment in Cortland, NY (near us) has a very nice rear pumper that has a lot of equipment and also a lot of water. Theirs is a Saulsbury (go figure -- it's right by the plant), but some other manufactures also build them.

  8. #8
    Drew Smith
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    Post

    Ask yourself some questions which might give you the answers:
    1. What is a reasonable turnout for a call? How many member will show up for a fire or rescue. This will tell you whether stafing multiple rigs is realistic. Don't forget about the daytime versus nighttime response.
    2. How much money do you have? Two is cheaper than one, but not always.
    3. What is it that you want to do. Prioritize. What can you do now and what can't you do than you want to do.

    At my departmentment we have a rescue pumper that is loaded (1500 GPM/750 gallons/foam system/cascade/reels galore) and has lotsof cabintes. It could be better laid out but thats another story. For us the bottom line is this: We have what we need 95% of the time. For the rest we call regional mutual aid.

  9. #9
    eng6111
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    Post

    A rescue/pumper looks like it would work for you,500 gal. of water works good 750/1000 will make the hosebed high and harder to work off.good luck.

  10. #10
    tmr91
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    Post

    My department took delivery of a rescue pumper in the spring of 99. We desined it to handle 80-90% of our calls. The on duty firefighter can respond with this truck and handle almost any situation. It primary response is medicals, pi accidents, wash downs,car fires, wires down etc. The rescue is set up as a class 'a' pumper with a 1250 gpm pump, 500 gallon water and 30 gallon of foam. This allows us to start a inital attack on a fire if we should already be out on a call. The truck is also helpful as a relay pumper or set up as fill site for tankers.
    Take a look at it at www.htfd.com.

  11. #11
    ScottN7ZTI
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    O.K., here is a different one, on our dept, on any MVA, we send a medical truck as the first out, with 5 or 6 people on it, and our second out is a rescue pumper, with a 50' mid mounted ladder, 500 gallons water, 1250 front mount pump, very usefull for city fires, and carries almost all of our rescue equip. that we need. (cutters, spreaders, airbags, cribbing etc.) If need any more than this, we call for mutual aid, we have 4 different depts. that we can call, all about 10 minutes away.

    With having the rescue pumper, this alows the medical truck to take care of the medial end of it, pumper will have a charged 1 3/4" line out, and take care of the extrication. Hte pumper is normally en-route within one minute after the rescue goes.

  12. #12
    G Koons
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    Post

    Our dept. has been using an
    American/LaFrance pumper/rescue since 1990. It meets our needs.We have fire fighting equipment on the pump side, full cabinets, and rescue equipment on the passenger side. Ladders and suction hose are conceled between the cabinets and the 500 fiberglass booster tank. A 4 bottle 5000 psi cascade sytem is located between the top of the tank and the bottom of the hose bed.The only drawback to this design is a small hose capacity. Above the pump we utilize this area for buckets of foam and large items. We also have an electric compressor mounted as a second compressor to the main gas operated compressor in the rear side compartment. A Homelite 6.5 kw gas generator is in the rear drivers side compartment.It is mounted on slide mounts for removal and air cooling. Also along side each side of the hose bed are cabinets from rear of truck to the pump area for small ladders and stokes baskets. A trash line is piped on the passenger side running board below the pump panel.This custom 7 man cab with 1500 gpm pump meets our needs. The hose bed is a bit small but we carry 3and 4 in hose. There are 4
    preconnects by the pump panel (side mounted).
    We have another pumper to back this pumper up as well as 2 tankers.

  13. #13
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    Exclamation Origination of RESCUE PUMPER/RESCUE ENGINE

    In order to understand the difference you have to go back to the late 1980s early 1990 and look at the intent of the orginal design of the Rescue pumper, designed by WS Darley for Volunteer Firechief Politano. Noting that other manufactures were asked to come up with the design and turned down the offer by Chief Politano, Peter Darley was the only one to deliver blueprints for a vehicle meeting the requirements asked for. The Vehicle asked for and designed was to add the pumping capabilites of what was then a Class A NFPA engine to that of a heavy squad. Nothing more. That was 1000gpm pump and 500 gallons of water and the attack lines in the form of cross lays, on a walkin Heavy rescue body with a custom chassis. what the rescue engine is today is not the idea that was originally designed. It it more class A engine with limited heavy squad capabiites, not a heavy squad with greater firefighting capabilites and there is a difference
    If you need a squad get a squad, if you need it to carry water and pump then order it accordingly. If you need an egnine company spec an engine company. But a rescue pumper is a heavy squad first with pumping capabilites second and that is how it was origianlly designed.

  14. #14
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    Two thousand zero zero party over, oops out of time. So tonight I'm gonna party like it's 1999.

    Welcome to the 21st century!
    I have only 2 allegiances, to my country and to my God. The rest of you are fair game.

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    BBBBBBBBBBBBIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

    BBBBBBBUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

    hehehe. 10 year old thread................................


    could this be a record?

  16. #16
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    yeah I have some to say about his thread and want to know why there were to many people at the "hands OFF courses" also!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







    timing is everything...
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    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

  17. #17
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    Thumbs up Old thread but popular rig

    Yeah this is an old thread but this vehicle is quickly dominating American fire stations and fire scene. It fast becoming the most ordered vehilce from all apparatus manufactures. It just seemed important to know the origin of such a new rig that is only 10 years old..think about it how many rescue pumpers /rescue engines are running in your district now compared to only 5 years ago? Almost all new engines ordered for Northern Virginia departments are some sort or rescue pumper configuration. Virtually all of Fairfax County Va new rigs are, in 1990 there was only one, and that was owned by Fairoaks VFD Company 21. In the Northern Shenandoah Valley almost every VFD has a rescue pumper or one on order, but these are not true rescue pumpers, that is a heavy squad with class A firefighting capabilites. They are more engine company then squad.
    Last edited by firechief10; 06-08-2009 at 02:48 AM.

  18. #18
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    Talking Squad

    Ok since we are on the subject. Isn't a Squad by original definition and intent a Rescue Pumper and NOT a Heavy Rescue. Didn't FDNY originate the concept by placing a couple extra firefighters on a Pumper and then they evolved it to be an Pumper with extra storage space for additional rescue equipment. Without water, pump, and hose its not a Squad.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by viperfire1 View Post
    Without water, pump, and hose its not a Squad.
    Squad is a regional or department-specific term. Squads can be used to describe ambulances, quick response vehicles, heavy rescues, or whatever the department wants it to be. There's no set definition for what a "squad" is across the US.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by firechief10 View Post
    Yeah this is an old thread but this vehicle is quickly dominating American fire stations and fire scene. It fast becoming the most ordered vehilce from all apparatus manufactures. It just seemed important to know the origin of such a new rig that is only 10 years old..think about it how many rescue pumpers /rescue engines are running in your district now compared to only 5 years ago? Almost all new engines ordered for Northern Virginia departments are some sort or rescue pumper configuration. Virtually all of Fairfax County Va new rigs are, in 1990 there was only one, and that was owned by Fairoaks VFD Company 21. In the Northern Shenandoah Valley almost every VFD has a rescue pumper or one on order, but these are not true rescue pumpers, that is a heavy squad with class A firefighting capabilites. They are more engine company then squad.

    A couple of quick notes. First while all of the new the Fairfax County pumpers are what would be considered a Rescue Engine(pumper) style body they are definitely not Rescue Engines. They do not carry any extrication or rescue equipment.

    The City of Fairfax put a Rescue Engine in service in 1992, not long after the Fair Oaks VFD. The difference was it was staffed 24/7 365 and ran as both a Rescue or an Engine all the time. At one point Fairfax County placed a Rescue Engine service at fire station 25 and it also ran as both a Rescue or Engine. It went out service with when Rescue 439 went in service.

    The City of Fairfax put it's second generation Rescue Engine in service in 2004/2005. This vehicle was designed to primarily function as a Rescue but is very capable of being an Engine also.

    Adrian Munday

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    Also here in Finland practially all engines are rescue-engines. For example our town's first engine has 740 gallons of water, 40 gallons of foam liquid and rear-mounted pump wich can pump 800 GPM @ 10 bar. The engine also has EMS kit, 47,5-foot and 26-foot ladders, Holmatro-extraction kit with other rescue equipment and equipment to use when responding hatzmat-calls.

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