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Thread: New Engine

  1. #1
    RF Duval
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question New Engine

    We are in the early stages of spec'ing a new engine. We are looking at 1500 gpm with 1000 gallons on board, 6 man cab on a custom chassis w/rescue pumper style body.
    Has anyone recently been through the process and have good or bad experiences that they can share (i.e. manufactuers/reps, etc)?



    ------------------
    Dep Chief RF Duval


  2. #2
    Romania
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Pierce, Pierce, Pierce

  3. #3
    smitheps
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Just bought a new pumper. We love it.

    1999 Sparten/3D (now American LaFrance)
    1000gpm Hale CAFS/ 750gal/Class A/B 50 gal each)
    Side mount rescue body w/ six man cab
    30 ft overall length (Q2 to back bumper)
    330hp Cummins M-11/Allison Auto
    1250ft 5in/1000ft 3in
    Two 2in 200ft CAFS preconnects
    One 2-1/2 in 200ft CAFS preconnect
    One 1-3/4 100ft AFFF preconnect
    All preconnects can flow straight water
    One 1-3/4 150ft Trash line
    Apollo Stackable deck gun
    Apollo portable/stackable step gun
    Full complement of cribbing
    FAS Team Compartment (too much to list)
    Life Pak 500 AED/Full size trauma kit
    385gpm gas fired trash pump w/hard suction
    Electric vent fan
    Brush fire equip. (too much to list)
    More assorted goodies

  4. #4
    MetalMedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Arrow

    I'm going to pass the buck here... we have a 1999 Lafrance/Fierra (I think that is how it is spelled) that seems to be less than what we wanted it to be. Contact me off-list and I'll try to put you in touch with someone from our specifications committee. I am sure they can tell you some of the experience this truck has brought us.




    ------------------
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.


    [This message has been edited by MetalMedic (edited February 24, 2000).]

  5. #5
    Ray R
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Two relatively inexpensive items have worked well for us.

    1. Rear intake of 4" or larger controlled from the pump panel. It keeps the LDH out of the way and is ideal for those long narrow driveways in rual areas where you do not have enough room to set a portable tank alongside the engine for water shuttle.

    2. Front Bumper Extension with a pre-connect 100'-150' 1 3/4" trash line. Works well on vehicle fires also. Line can be deployed without having to stretch hose into traffic or road ditch.

    Have you considered a foam system?

  6. #6
    RF Duval
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We are considering a foam system; a A/B tank and proportioner on board. We are afraid the CAFS will be too $$$ for our budget.

    How about Roll-up Doors vs. Standard compartment doors?

    Any opinions?

    ------------------
    Dep Chief RF Duval

  7. #7
    ChiefDog
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We have a 1999 Navistar/Central States Centurion. So far we seem to like it.

    We have a FoamPro 2002 A/B system on it. We like it because it is easy to operate.

    We went with a diesel generator fueled from the truck fuel tank, works nice.

    It has rollup doors. Standard on the Centurion. They get up and out of the way and are big openings when open.

    Don't let anyone tell you one brand is better than the other based on one bad experience. Base it on the bigger picture. Every manufacturer has lemons and other rigs are the best thing since sliced bread. Get a feeling from many different departements that have had that piece in house for 4-6 years.

    SERVICE AFTER THE SALE is key!!!

    Make sure you have a strong person heading the committee on the spec.'s. They have to understand the process and pay close attention to the details. Miscommunications can cause things to not be the way you thought they would be.

    Remember YOU WROTE THE SPEC's, if the truck was built the way YOU wanted it. Then short falls in capabilities "MAY" reside in your lap.

    For example: we have is a long truck. 32'9" BUT, we said we wanted the truck to do x,y,z and to do that on a 4 door commercial chassis we got a long truck. You can't have your cake and eat it too without MAJOR planning.

    We talked with McDermott & Company of N. Egremont, MA, a New England Dealer for Central. Not sure if you would be covered by them. I found them to be very helpful. They also maintain a list of trucks in the field that you can talk to. Trucks with various uses and lengths of service. That way you do not get the party line on the responses. I would ask for a list from any MFG.you are talking to. Then you can pick your own contacts out of a few hundred trucks they sold over the last 5 years or so. Then call them or visit them yourself.

    I have seen a couple departments who do not like their trucks. When I asked about it they gave reasons that were not the truck's fault. It was the department's or situation's fault. This is where I would be careful of taking problem truck's stories to heart without investigating them for myself.

    Look at the post in the NorthEast forum on a new engine. You may find more info. there.

    Good luck,


  8. #8
    Badge174
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We took delivery of a Pierce Dash 2000 in May of 1999. It saw its first fire the morning of its 2nd day it was placed in service. Have been able to say that we have had a few “shaking out the bugs” problems, but the dealer has been great to us in handling these minor problems.

    We as a committee developed a loose specification as to what we needed before we even looked at new apparatus. This was to keep us humble and reduce the nice to have stuff.

    Then we looked at demonstrators close to our general specification. We saw some nice stuff, stuff that we added or changed to our then detailed specification. We then sent that specification out to the dealers for bidding.

    After we got the bids back we as a committee sat down opened the bids. We then took those and compared their bid to our specifications and then to each other’s specifications. We developed a spreadsheet that compared feature to feature and used that to base in our opinion the best pumper.

    In our case we determined that the lowest bidder was not the quality that we desired, and we could then justify not taking the lowest bidder. $5,000 separated low bidder from number 2, and the highest bid was $10,000 higher than number 2. The price difference of $5,000 prorated over a 10-year period as one extra bingo night a year.

    The biggest thing to remember is you are buying this rig for YOUR Department and no one else’s, it needs to fit YOUR needs.

    NFPA 1901 has some good information in it and there is a worksheet in the back of the manual. I was able to access one on CD from a paid department. I don’t know how to buy one.

    Good Luck

    Badge174

  9. #9
    Dalmation90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Roll up doors. Gotta get the roll up doors.

  10. #10
    lbfdfirefighter
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Pierce, Pierce and more pierce with either a dash 2000 chassis or the new enforcer one. Also you may want to take a look at getting a 65' telesquirt with rescue gear on it, great tool for a first due engine

  11. #11
    NUMBY
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We have a new 1999 Ferarra built on a Spartan Metro Star chassis. Overall it is a nice truck. We have had a bunch of minor problems with it, mostly just working out the bugs. We had a few extra things put on it such as an AMPS generator and an electronis pressure governor, doing away with the old type relief valve. Its a good idea to form a comittee and look at all different types of trucks and setups. We dont really care for roll up doors, because we have them on another truck and they started to have paint chip after a few years and they always need to have the tension adjusted, lots of maintenance. Good Luck.

    <IMG SRC:"http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/uploads/401.jpg" >

    ------------------
    Anything left in the forums is my opinion and does not reflect my department or any organization i belong to.

    [This message has been edited by NUMBY (edited March 08, 2000).]

  12. #12
    NUMBY
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We have a new 1999 Ferarra built on a Spartan Metro Star chassis. Overall it is a nice truck. We have had a bunch of minor problems with it, mostly just working out the bugs. We had a few extra things put on it such as an AMPS generator, hydraulic ladder rack, and an electronic pressure governor, doing away with the old type relief valve. Its a good idea to form a committee and look at all different types of trucks and setups. We dont really care for roll up doors, because we have them on another truck and they started to have paint chip after a few years and they always need to have the tension adjusted, lots of maintenance. Good Luck.

    *Sorry the reply is in twice, took that many tries to figure out how to include the picture*



    ------------------
    Anything left in the forums is my opinion and does not reflect my department or any organization i belong to.

    [This message has been edited by NUMBY (edited March 08, 2000).]

  13. #13
    firera
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We just recently purchased an American Lafrance. went with the eagle chassis and 3D body. we now have all the storage room and tools we need . we are a rural combination dept. has 1000 gal tank , we also went with the AF pump set up for 1500 gpm rated ( but actually a 2000 gpm pump). we are very pleased with the results we have gotten .
    Good luck in your search and stay safe. hope this helps out some

  14. #14
    SFDchief
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    My dept has gotten Pierces (either new or referbed) since 1990. The last one we got, in 1997, was and is a HUGE nightmare. Since day one several things haven't been right and no one will take responsibility for the mistakes. We've put big $$$ into it since we've got it, at the recomendation of the factory and the dealer and it still isn't right.
    We will be taking delivery of two Seagraves this summer.
    As far as what to spec out on the engine, you have to look at your needs. We keep two 2,000 gallon pumpers on the side of town with no hydrants and two 1,000 gallon pumpers on the side with hydrants. We also have a rescue/pumper with 500 gallons and foam. All are 150 gpm pumps.
    As far as roll up doors vs. hinged doors, with rollups you don't have to worry about them sticking out into traffic. The downside is the space they take up once they are rolled up at the top of the compartment. We've also had a few problems with the rollups freezing up in the cold weather if when they get wet.

  15. #15
    tmr91
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You might want to consider andding a contigency fund to your specifications. This is used for items that were over looked, forgotten or want to add. The way they work is that a dollar amount for example $5000.00 is added to price of the truck. If you wanted to added more lights , folding steps, extra equipment, etc. The cost is deducted from that amount. Any remaining money is subtracted from the price of the truck.I don't care how well you did your home work, something is always overlooked. It's hard to go back to city council and ask for more money becuase you forgot something. Hope this helps out

  16. #16
    Doo600
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Just finished the process. Tour the facilities your thinking of and I guarantee if you see how pierce builds their trucks you'll purchase theirs. Most of these companies are just tiny companies that may not be around when you need parts in 20 years. Also, Don't piece meal the truck by using a chassis manufacturer, body manufacturer, etc. When it comes time to fix a problem, each guy will say it's the other guys fault.

  17. #17
    ENG 6511
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I would suggest that you visit the new American LaFrance web site then visit the operation in Cleveland, NC as I have.

    ------------------
    Bob Compton

  18. #18
    cra539
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The slant against the tiny companies is basically a load of crap. Consider the list of "bigger" companies that went belly up over the past 20 yrs

    ALF (even though they're back-again)
    Ward LaFrance
    Peter Pirsch
    Maxim
    Grumman
    FMC
    Hahn
    Mack (fire apparatus line)
    anybody care to add a few more?

    There are many "tiny" builders out there who've been around for generations and are doing well.

  19. #19
    Badge174
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We had problems with the Apparatus manufacturer blaming the Commercial Chassis manufacturer, who blamed Engine maufacturer, who in turn blamed the Transmission manufacturer doing warrenty work. We had everybody pointing at each other as the source of their problem. So the department ended up picking up the tab on problems that should have been covered under warranty. Our expirence with this lead us to buy custom apparatus from that point on. Only ONE person in the loop.
    Badge 174

    [This message has been edited by Badge174 (edited March 30, 2000).]

  20. #20
    cra539
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "only 1 person in the loop" is fine if they fix the engine,tires,generators,pumps, transmission,rear end,axles, and all the other "components" that are on an apparatus.Which nobody does anymore.If you look at your warranty, somewhere in the fine print it'll probably say something like,"warranty for components are covered by their respective manufacturers".

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