My department has a Air/Heavy Rescue that is 10 years old. We have a quint that is past it's service life and needs to be replaced. A small group would like to combine these two trucks. An engine air rescue ladder if you will. Our rescue runs interstate 80 and a bunch of twisting/turning roads in the winter. I'm of the beilief that 2 trucks will serve us better than one very large one. Any one have any comments for or against. I would love to hear them.
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Thread: New rescue Pumper/quint
03-25-2000, 12:15 AM #1Chad165Firehouse.com Guest
New rescue Pumper/quint
03-25-2000, 08:38 PM #2townbyFirehouse.com Guest
I would go with two. dont overload your apparatus with one, plus you tie up all your equipment with one unit. What about more than one call.
townby IAFF 3649
03-26-2000, 09:41 AM #3FFE3BFDFirehouse.com Guest
I also agree it sounds like putting all your eggs in one basket. Keep them separate.
03-27-2000, 05:20 PM #4STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
My two cents for what its worth. Its very simple the way I see it. The large, do everything apparatus that are getting bigger and more multi-functional everyday are good for small departments as single purpose dedicated units are more suited for large departments. Its a matter of available man power and call volume. Odds are you can put everything you want on this "Super Quint" and get away with it. But the oddball multiple calls do occur and you could be hung out. I agree with the other two posts though, don't put all your eggs in one basket, or rescue/quint. I said before multi-purpose units are o.k. for small departments. Allow me to digress a minute. You can combine certain functions, not all. An aerial/tanker setup for instance doesn't go well together eventhough a certain Nevada dept. will argue with me on that. You need an aerial to set up and go to work, not run water back and forth. Conversely, an engine/rescue can work. The combining functions should have an overlap of complimenting attributes. An engine is necessary (In my part of the world) for extrications and aero-medical evacuations. An acceptable combination. A dept. in North Harris County is combining its hose wagons with its rescue apparatus I believe. Those two functions don't seem to compliment each other. I can't see the need for 6000' of LDH on an MVA w/entrappment. I can't see the need to potentially tie two rescue tools to a large fire. Alot of departments combine SCBA/Cascade functions w/ ladder co.'s. Its especially common w/platform and tower ladder rigs. NFPA already requires breathing are to the basket, so they increase the number of bottles onboard to fill SCBA cyclinders. I personally don't care for it, but hey, oh well. It atleast has a 2nd role that can be used at a fire. Just be careful about two much "versatility." I also am willing to bet you you cannot get ALL of your Heavy Rescue, Ladder Co., Cascade and Engine Co. tools, hose and equipment on a rig that has a wheel base that will be able to traverse your windy roads. If you do manage to find a maker that can do it and fit it ALL, you'll probably have a tractor trailer rig that can't get on the road legally (Be glad your not in Ca.) or cross bridges. Just my thoughts. Be safe.
03-29-2000, 12:27 PM #5Badge174Firehouse.com Guest
Not only is the possibility of multi calls an issue, what about a unit being placed out of service for Maintenance. You lose two capabilities there too unless you have a reserve rig that can take the load.
I think the “Nevada Department” that Station 2 referenced has 3 or 4 of the aerial – tanker rigs they get by because of the number of these rigs that are available.
03-29-2000, 01:21 PM #6Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
Would a Quint that is also an Air & Rescue be a Sept?
I do think that's a little too much combining on one truck. Maybe a all-in-one tool and some basic equipment so the Quint can be your backup rescue?
The main thing I think of, and I'm sure this is different around the country, is vehicle life spans.
We plan on replacing our Heavy Rescue (which also does a lot of First Responder runs) every 15 years...the tools change & we keep getting more and more stuff...plus more runs for wear & tear.
Our Aerials on the other hand are on a 30 year schedule...and one of our nearby towns is looking at aerials lasting 40 years.
(By the way, Engine/Tankers we replace at 20 years, and our Engine/Hose-Tender is on a 30 year schedule)
03-30-2000, 01:10 AM #7LHS'Firehouse.com Guest
A certain Nevada department does have a reason for what it does and must do it pretty good with volunteers to get a Class 1. The first quint attacks the fire. All other quints and quads shuttle or lay miles of hose. In town they act like any other quint, ladder or engine and use hydrants. The same capability is on every rig. No waiting for a specialty piece.
Please expand why a tanker aerial doesn't go well together. We've got 5 years of 100% tanker quints as do several other places around the country. Every fire goes out, we don't run out of water, we cut people out of cars, put out big tanker fires, and all the other stuff everyone else does. What pray tell are we missing, lacking?
I know what works here, what someone does elsewhere is there business. On occassion it is mine coming up with solutions that work. I'd love to hear why this or that can't work, or won't work well, most limits in life are place by opionion rarely fact.
Hose wagon/Rescue. The concept is simple 99% of the time it will be the big heavy rescue vehicle supporting 7 quints with bumper mounted preconnected extrication tools setup to deploy in 15 seconds. The rescue will also fill air bottles and carry the unusual. 1% of the time in the rural areas one of the two rescues will lay from its 6000 foot 6 inch hose bed and supply the line or lines. A 3500 gpm pump is there to draft or pump lines. The other rescue will at that rare event be the rescue assuming the 1st in tanker after dropping its load of water does not perform the relay function with its 3500 gpm pump freeing the 1st rescue.
You state the functions do not compliment each other. The quints, tankers and rescue all respond to the same call. The engineer of the rescue will have to slow down to 5 mph push a button and lay a supply line in and go about what it always does. Will an auto extrication be goofed up if the rig doing the rescue has 6000 feet of hose on it? Even in a community with 8 sets of tools every 2 miles and a back up rescue within 6 minutes anywhere in the district? So you tie two tools up out of 8 is that really a problem?
I would like to state all the stuff carried on the Harris county FD's current rescue is carried on each and every one of our quints. And even the lady firefighters have no problem driving everywhere within 175 miles of town. The key is to define what the tight turn is, assuming it even exists.
Just one persons opinion, based upon seeing and doing for 25 years, do't get riled up, all fires go out everywhere even if the FD doesn't show up, if you don't agree with the answer just pretend you didn't read it, apply whatever you think works.
03-30-2000, 04:17 PM #8STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
I knew this would happen. You gotta luv LHS. Anyway back to the point. in your post you asked me to "expand on why a tanker aerial doesn't go well together."
For the sake of a level playing field, lets all agree we are speaking in general and average terms. Take most of the departments that need and use tankers. They do so because of their underdeveloped water supply systems in either rural areas or rapidly expanding areas. These same departments also have Truck Co.'s. In my opinion it doesn't make sense to require a TRUE quint to have to run water. I agree that in YOUR case you can have alot of water on wheels at the scene and make a good, quick knock w/what you have on hand. You add in Class A and CAFS and its even more effective. Unless Truck operations have changed in the last 10 or 15 minutes, its not practical to require such a versatile, important piece of equipment and often only aerial of a department to run water. It deviates from the purpose of those operations. Forcible entry, ventilation and primary search need to be carried out immediately. Lets also throw in master stream ops. This often time requires the main ladder, ground ladders or other equipment from the rig. This could be difficult to achieve if the rig is on a 3 mile circuit for water. As I have said before, and Badge 174 mentioned, some dept.'s can if they have multiple units of this type. You have multiple units of this type. You can set one up as the Truck Co. and run the others as tankers. Now lets look at the need to do such a thing. Your geographic location necessitates such an ability. Your 175 mile runs w/out benefit of plugs is unique to your area. My area does not have the same need. Chad165 may have a situation closer to yours than mine. Conversely, his need may be closer to mine than yours. I applaud your rigs extreme level of versatility. They, as I have said before, are well thought out pieces of equipment. Now lets look at why your rigs are capable of so much as you have said before. This may also straighten out some misconceptions of what you call a Quint and what I call a Quint. Technically your rigs are quints. You are capable of putting all your equipment and tools on them because of a couple of HUGE factors in my opinion. They are basically Tele-Squirts. Yes they count as aerial ladders, but when you get down to it they are Tele-Squirts. I may be wrong in giving them a brand name, they could have been built by a number of makers of those type devices, but thats what they are. With such devices as yours, two things are greatly reduced over that of what I call a quint w/a legitimate main ladder. Weight and size of the ladder is GREATLY reduced and the overall GVW of the rig is also reduced. This translates into more compartment space for equipment and tools along w/their associated additional weight. Also jack spread is greatly reduced because the device being used is smaller and lighter than a traditional aerial ladder. In addition, the number of jacks needed is reduced. These two factors about the jacks are important. This allows for smaller jacks, or outriggers, a fewer of them which eat up less potential compartment space with less weight. As far as I am concerned, and I could be wrong, Chad165 and his department are wanting a real aerial device that has a tip load and working ranges they can do something with on the fireground besides hold up their own weight when flowing water.
As far a rescue/hose wagons, if the department has eight (8) tools and can afford to commit two (2) of them, what do I care unless I have family that lives there or frequents the area. In my humble opinion, I don't have a problem w/it if EVERY capital rig in a dept has a set. No problem. Please E-Mail me the name of the dept in North Harris County that has eight (8) sets.
I jumped in on this forum when a blanket question was asked and my and others opinions requested. It is my opinion that some combinations are o.k. and some are not. Your opinion is just as valued and your entitled to it. Be safe.
03-30-2000, 05:35 PM #9pahoseboyFirehouse.com Guest
Lhs, who pays for your equipment? What kind of a budget do you have that you can purchase such equipment? Most departments go to combination vehicles because they can't afford to buy 2 seperate units. Atleast that is the reason in my neck of the woods. Just mho.
03-31-2000, 02:07 AM #10LHS'Firehouse.com Guest
...a real aerial device that has a tip load and working ranges they can do something with on the fireground besides hold up their own weight when flowing water...
The UL tip load is 500 pounds flowing water. What would a real aerial be capable of?
...the name of the dept in North Harris County that has eight (8) sets...
Actually 9, Spring, on order as we speak. & quints 2 on the rescues.
..who pays for your equipment?...
The city and county
.. What kind of a budget do you have that you can purchase such equipment?...
Currently a whopping 350K a year
...Most departments go to combination vehicles because they can't afford to buy 2 seperate units. Atleast that is the reason in my neck of the woods. Just mho.///
03-31-2000, 05:42 PM #11STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
LHS, lets show our cards here shall we. Who makes your aerial device? Thru your lack of a response on the issue, I shall assume that my observation of your "tele-squirts" is accurate. A "real" aerial should have a number of things to be considered real. A purpose built ladder that has a waterway integrated into the design of the unit for true versatility and capable of doing both jobs completely. That is flow serious GPM when needed and support rescue operations with atleast two firefighters and a civilian. Not a ladder thrown on top of a waterway and called a "main ladder" or "quint." A fly section that is wide enough to facilitate safe and rapid movement of personnel and equipment up for search and rescue, ventilation, hose line advancement, etc. Not one that a bunkered out and working firefighter can barely fit on alone, not even considering when moving a civilian down or a hoseline up. It must have an adequate number of handrails at a usable height to facilitate safe and rapid ascending and descending with tools and victims. Be capable of flowing master streams below horizontal when needed. I await your reply.
03-31-2000, 10:26 PM #12Resq14Firehouse.com Guest
04-01-2000, 01:44 AM #13LHS'Firehouse.com Guest
The device is made by Pierce, it is not a Tele-Squrt. It meets the same standards as an aerial and it meets the same NFPA. You perfectly described all the features the ladders do well. It exceeds most of the items you listed weights and capability wise of what you work with in the city.
04-01-2000, 09:11 PM #14STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
If you want to compare our ladders to yours, that fine with me. You say yours has the same capabilities as ours. In an apples to oranges comparison, you may be able to construe it that way. In an apples to apples comparison, I don't think so. You said 500lbs tip load flowing water. Try 750lbs flowing water. Operations below horizontal. Judging by the pictures on your web site I am looking at right now, that can't be done by yours perpindicualr to the chassis even with the ladder racks down because of the hose bed and compartmentation. Your only option to go below horizontal is directly to the rear. A very narrow area to work with if needed. The weight of your "ladder" (Pierce does make steel ladders) vs our aluminum ladder is probably the only close comparison between the two in terms of weight and yours is 65' w/out a full service ladder and ours is 100' with a full service ladder. As far as meeting NFPA requirments, we all know that NFPA goes with the bare minimum in most cases. So, yes technically yours does meet NFPA, but to the people on the rig with you it could be a false sense of security. What model "ladder" is that? If it is a Pierce then its their version of a tele-squirt that is being advertised in the fire service magazines right now. Its a master stream device that has attempted to impersonate a true, full service aerial device. Pierce makes good products, I have said before and I'll say it again. But, that particular device is most likely marketed for the Engine/Pumper market as an added capability. Not to make the rig a quint. The squirt type device is a good one for enigne co.'s. it allows good versatility with the restictions I have covered in this forum. I am not trying to be critical here, but you and I both know that your version and mine are different thru our expectations of what a quint has to be, atleast in this case. Be safe.
04-02-2000, 02:56 PM #15LHS'Firehouse.com Guest
...You said 500 lbs tip load flowing water. Try 750 lbs flowing water...
You mean some of your ladders, certainly not all many are 0 pound rated ladders, RIGHT? Others have major limitations in extension and distribution. Either way we have a larger range of ladder pipe motion and the ability to flow more water or foam quicker. We can set our outriggers faster. In 90 seconds we are at full extension, 90 degree rotation and full height flowing water after catching a 300 foot supply line. And yours? We have much better floodlighting by several magnitudes. We can operate the aerial device without restriction with the drive engine shutoff for rescue work offering a quiet work place and less vibration.
Ours will do 800 lbs at 45 degrees plus that is in addition to the 385 pounds of equipment allowance for UL on the tip. The boom does far more than what you implied "hold up its own weight". Does your have a crane loop for hoisting?
...Its a master stream device that has attempted to impersonate a true, full service aerial device....
It is the choice of over 2250 departments, easily firt place of ay ladder device ever sold. That covers FDNY, to LA, to Miami, to Philly, St Louis, Las Vegas, FT Worth, etc. Our ladder length meets out town just fine. Yours does not.
...equipment on a rig that has a wheel base that will be able to traverse your windy roads...
Do your ladders respond with engines on those calls? If so, our rigs are no bigger than yours. We get where ever we need to get.
...These same departments also have Truck Co.'s. ...
Nationwide, rarely, look at your own area and list a few with aerials that are tanker dependent.
...You need an aerial to set up and go to work, not run water back and forth...
Obviously, the pumper aerials in MI, CA, NV, PA, TX or others use them. The facts are the first quint is the attack piece and does not shuttle water.
..Just be careful about two much "versatility." ...
Yeah it is more fun to arrive first in a straight ladder and wait for water, watch a tanker burn on the highway, not be able to protect your own rig, have a lousy ladder compliment, not have the ability to fill bottles, not have great floodlighting, not pack enough hose or lay it due to lusy design, wait for the next rig to bring an imager, not have a clue who is onscene down or otherwise, have limited ladder pipe range of motion, have nothing but short preconnects, not pack hard suction, wait for other needed tools carried only on specialty apparatus.
...This allows for smaller jacks, or outriggers, a fewer of them which eat up less potential compartment space ...
That is a good thing not a bad thing.
...A fly section that is wide enough to facilitate safe and rapid movement of personnel and equipment up for search and rescue, ventilation, hose line advancement, etc...
Never been a problem, but once again ours is wider than many of your ladders. Many of your aerials do not have anything but a 200 pound tip load when 60 degres or higher and many of yours cannot lift their own weight from 0 degrees at full extension which is why one collasped tragically in your community at a fire during a rescue attempt.
...It must have an adequate number of handrails at a usable height to facilitate safe and rapid ascending and descending with tools and victims...
Once again the same or better than many of your rigs that have served for generations successfully in your community.
...Be capable of flowing master streams below horizontal when needed...
No problem for ours, a definate issue for many of yours, in fact the 15 degree sweep limit right and left on many of yours gives us a 160 degree advantage and your books say not to operate anywhere neer horizontal on many of your rigs.
Can you drive down the road with the ladder up flowing water? Relocate due to radiant heat with the device up?
You carry way less in the way of ground ladders than we do.
I'm certianly not suggesting our approach to your area but the facts are 33% of the world has water supply issues and those running tanker aerials are doing just fine. Your rigs would be way out of place in a rural situation. Arriving first without water has already gotten your department in legal trouble. Public confidence is important to us so all rigs can in fact fight fire. No mater which one of our rigs arrive first we can take apart a car, address flammable liquid fires in a crash truck like mode with more capability than a majority of the worlds crash trucks, we can ladder 9 to 11 windows per rig, draft quickly, lay 1/2 mile of supply or 1/3 mile of attack line, pump and roll, support 10 firefighters fully equipped on arrival, account for all personnel electronically and find them.
Oh buy the way, the correct spelling is TeleSqurt.
The test is pretty simple doesw it do the job, does it meet or exceed the expectations, when you go mutual or automatic aid will it do the job there as well...if so you are better off than most. OUrs work just fine.
04-02-2000, 05:58 PM #16Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
Larry, why do you
which is why one collasped tragically in your community at a fire during a rescue attempt.
Yeah it is more fun to arrive first in a straight ladder and wait for water, watch a tanker burn on the highway, not be able to protect your own rig
Oh buy the way, the correct spelling is TeleSqurt.
(By the way, did you PURPOSELY misspell buy in the above sentence on correct spelling?)
those who dare challenge your trucks?
The first post that mentioned "a certain Nevada department" also conceded much earlier that it is doable. In fact, Station 2's point is the same as yours -- to be prepared for the oddball incident. Station 2 prefers to split the functions so two incidents can be handled seperately. You prefer to build redundancy into each truck. End result, fire goes out.
And from that, you have turned another post into a Fallon Super Truck Free-for-all. What are you on, your fourth or fifth incarnation on this board (including the ka identities?) after having been kicked out?
You know a lot about equipment, but equipment doesn't do diddly against a fire without the knowledge to use it. And when you post in such an immature manner, well, it's awful hard for you to share your knowledge 'cause most people either ignore you or argue with you...everyone gets dragged down to the juvenile level of kids squabbling over their toys.
04-02-2000, 11:13 PM #17LHS'Firehouse.com Guest
Matt Why do you with your words:
"you have turned another post into a Fallon Super Truck Free-for-all" Sorry it is not a Mortlake super truck.
"but equipment doesn't do diddly against a fire without the knowledge to use it." So are you saying everyone but Mortlake doesn't have any knowledge?
"And when you post in such an immature manner" Did you read your own words. Here, your words, "feeling a little God like with omnipotent powers again"
04-03-2000, 07:20 AM #18Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
Because Larry, I'm not going to stand on the sidelines while you do that to others.
04-03-2000, 03:14 PM #19STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
Again, here we go with the speed shifting in mid stream. In this entire post I have been speaking of our 100' E-One devices. You know that and so do I. Its the same as I know you are speaking of your "wonder squirts" instead of your Sutphen.
As far as some of our other ladders go, yes you are right. Those would be the 1986 Spartan/LTI 108' rigs. 200lb tip loads and nobody on the tip flowing water.
Now back to the issue at hand. There is no need to bash our inability to pump water and lay a line w/our trucks. ITS NOT THERE JOB and they are not setup for it. As we both know, Trucks do Truck work here and Engines do Engine work. Our Truck company responsibilities are the same as Truck Co.'s around the country in other large departments. Forcible Entry, Primary Search, Ventilation, Salvage and Overhaul, Etc. is the name of the Trucks game. The Engine Co.'s lay the lines and squirt water while the truck does their job.
You speak of the "Choice of over 2250 departments", Is that for Pierce aerials or telesquirts? I ask because I can't recall an FDNY Pierce aerial or telesquirt. For that matter a Philly Pierce either. Maybe you can refresh my memory without a whirlwind side stepping of the question. The year model and company assignment will suffice.
An engine sometimes responds with our trucks, dependent on the call type. What is the need to run an Engine Co. from out of district with a Truck Co. for a cardiac arrest? And by the way, it can't be to extremely hard to go straight, turn left and stop at the first building on the right thats burning in the middle of the desert. As afr as Mi, Ca, Nv, Pa and Tx goes, I am not in the habit of telling other departments what I think they need and don't need. If they need then I say buy it.
Now let me address your comments you posted, I assume, about our trucks:
*Wait for water- With 85 Engine Co.'s its not long if at all.
*Watch a Tanker burn- Same as above.
*Protect the rig- Spot it were it should be to begin with.
*Fill SCBA bottles- Thats why Cascade Trucks exist.
*Floodlighting- We have enough fixed and portable lighting for our needs.
*Enough Hose- Not an issue, they are for truck work.
*TIC capabilities- We have one on every Truck Co., Rescue Co., Haz-Mat unit and some Engine Co.'s.
*Know who is there and down- Its call an accountability system. We have one, do you?
*Limited range of motion for L/P's- It doesn't seem to be an issue for us "city" departments.
*Short pre-connects- Again, not a truck co. assignment.
*Hard-Suction- We don't draft w/Truck Co.'s here. We have plugs thanks.
*Wait for special equipment- We carry tools that work for us and allow us to do our job completely.
Smaller jacks is a good thing. You are picking the parts of my posts you like and disregarding the parts you don't. Smaller jacks are for smaller telesquirts, bigger jacks are for bigger ladders.
Ladder width. If we park one of our 1986 LTI's next to one of your telesquirts, at MINIMUM they would be even in terms of width. If we stay on track with what you and I know we are speaking of with the 100' E-Ones, we both know you could fir your bed section into our fly section.
A ladder that tragically collapsed during a rescue, I don't recall that happening at all. You have your cities mixed up. We lost a 1983 Seagrave/3D Metals ladder from Ladder Co. 19 at a very large 4-11 warehouse fire. Everyone was fine and their new rig was already at the shop being fitted out when it happened. Please let me know when a ladder collapsed. I would like to know which company, what type of ladder, etc.
As far as the handrails, yeah right. Even our older trucks have more legitimate handrains than yours. If you climb your aerial on your stomach yours would be sufficient. Ours are true trucks. We climb our ladders standing. Maybe a little light in terms of tip load, but they do their job.
As far as operating at or near the horizontal, the E-Ones we are speaking of have no problem with that at all. You know that. I can't understand however, after looking at your web site again right now, how yours can go to the horizontal with hose bed dividers and/or the body being in the way. Now lets talk about below horizontal, you can't do it perpendicular to the chassis and you know it.
We have no need to drive with the ladder up. You may have a need for that. I can't understand why, but you might. I can imagine that your reply on this will include that you use it for structure protection. That means an SWI environment. That means unimproved road surfaces. Go for it, just E-Mail me the pictures when its on its side.
Arriving 1st in on a burner with no water on the truck has caused us no problems. Get the whole picture and story first. I know the Captain on the rig that was 1st in, Ladder Co. 34. He told me what happened. They were 3 minutes ahead of the Engine Co. They already had a primary in progress and were putting a hole in the roof when Engine Co. 39 arrived and stretched their lines. Truck work needs to be done regardless. The fire was handled and tapped out in 15 minutes.
As far as our rigs being setup for rural operations, I don't believe they are. They are built to do the job in the 4th largest city in the country, not in the country or desert.
Larry, you and I can round and round here, we both know that. Lets just both agree that your rigs are impressive. They work for you. But please don't knock other departments that either don't have the same needs as you or choose to split the capabilities as they see fit. Be safe.
04-03-2000, 03:27 PM #20STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
I almost forgot. Since when have aerial devices that firefighters and civilians depend on been used as cranes? I look at them as rescue rope. One use for rescue, then its utility rope. I am curious to know as to whether your aerial/crane devices are built to be cranes or ladders first? You say they are Pierce. Which model? I don't know it all, this is just my opinion. Be safe.
My opinions on this and the preceding posts are mine and mine only. They are not the opinion of any department of which I am an employee or member.
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