Thread: Rearmount LDH chutes
04-10-2000, 01:21 AM #1firenurseFirehouse.com Guest
Rearmount LDH chutes
I have heard that on some rearmount aerials, LDH has a tendency to get stuck in the hose chutes. What has been your departments experince with this? How often? Work arounds?
Conneaut FD #4
04-10-2000, 07:57 AM #2S. CookFirehouse.com Guest
What work arounds?
Have the bed designed so that you don't have a rear chute. If a builder says they can't do that - don't buy from them, they all can.
Here's a pic - http://www.gvfd.org/quint/rear.jpg
We've got 1200' of 5" in it now and room for another 500 or so, but we're going to put 400' of handline (2.5" and.175") in with it.
Designed this way, you don't have to raise the aerial to load the hose, another plus.
04-11-2000, 02:55 PM #3ffshotimeFirehouse.com Guest
As to S.Cooks reply, we are all not lucky enough to have this "hang-up" knowledge when we purchase. It is only after the purchase that these things are found. Simon-Duplex sure didnt tell us that we should not buy their truck because of the chute design problems. That brings us to, what do we do about it? In Oct. 99, I received a severe femur fracture from the LDH hanging-up while it was deploying out the chute. The immediate fix was to find a hose load that deploys smooth and implement the use of break-away straps to throw over the hydrant.About a month later the hose hung-up and broke the strap.(Better the the strap than a brother). Needless to say, the process of taking the plug was slowed. We have not found the fix yet but some of us on our dept. are doing some serious research on this. So far, there is brother out of state that said he will send pics of their hose load which works for them. They found this hose load after ffs suffered injuries also. A few or us are going to visit a dept. which has a total Quint concept on Wed. 4-12. Hopefully we can get some great ideas.Hopefully this info. helps. Feel free to contact for any questions or concerns
04-11-2000, 04:10 PM #4S. CookFirehouse.com Guest
I hope all is well with you now after your fracture.
I agree, better to break the strap than the brother or sister. That's why we use the strap on all of our LDH loads regardless of apparatus.
Would it be possible to reconfigure the chute, maybe cut a bigger hole or something? What about longer lengths of hose to reduce the number of couplings that have to come out?
Given this is not an uncommon occurance, I'm surprised that any manufacturer still has the chute as a standard set up (if the department wants to option it that's one thing). Liability?
04-11-2000, 04:46 PM #5firenurseFirehouse.com Guest
Thanks for your input so far. We are looking at used/refurbed aerial so we will get stuck with whatever problems arrise.
The breakaway strap sounds good but then how long does it take to unstick the coupling? What if the strap doesn't break?
Personally I would like avoid all this headache by going with a design that has a real hose bed like Sutphen's but once again buying used mean we get someone elses problems.
04-12-2000, 12:54 AM #6townbyFirehouse.com Guest
contact me at email@example.com
I got a few ideas for you.
townby IAFF 3649
04-12-2000, 08:01 AM #7S. CookFirehouse.com Guest
- The breakaway strap sounds good but then how long does it take to unstick the coupling?
That depends on how bad the coupling gets stuck. If it just hangs on the other side of the obstructucion, just giving some slack in the line may do it. If it jams up under it, who knows...
- What if the strap doesn't break?
To be blunt, something's gotta give. Either:
the hose bed will be damaged and the coupling will free,
the hose will pull out of the coupling,
the coupling will break,
the hydrant will be damaged.
But, any of these is better than a busted firefighter.
How much LDH are you going to put on board? That may be the solution in itself.
[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited April 12, 2000).]
04-13-2000, 10:49 PM #8ffshotimeFirehouse.com Guest
The straps we purchased have a plastic buckle. No worries with the strap not breaking, when the hose hangs-up it breaks the buckle like a toothpick. Our research trip gave us a few ideas with the hose load. We hope to experiment with these loads in a couple days.
04-20-2000, 06:09 PM #9TRUCK121Firehouse.com Guest
On our truck, a 1989 LTI 75' quint, we run 1200' of 4" hose out of a rear semi-chute. The truck has a full hose bed for the rear with a 300' 1 3/4" handline, a 200' 2 1/2" handline and the supply hose bed. When the hose goes under the turntable, there is nothing covering the top of the bed, the trick is for us to pack all the hose in the forward part of the bed and allow just the part you are pulling off under the turntable. It's hard to explain, but anyone who wants to see it can stop by. We just have to make sure that there is no extra hose under the bed. The one time a rookie packed it, he had a coupling on top of a section of hose right under the turntable. When we rotated the ladder, it got caught on the coupling with the edge of the table and sheard the dimondplate on the turntable. Let alone what it did to the coupling, but the sheetmetal around the hosebed was damaged too. If anyone can work out a Sutphen Style hose bed arrangement, do it. It puzzles me how Sutphen seems to work miracles with space and weight restrictions on small trucks, and every other manufaturers trucks just get bigger, heavier, and more complaicated.
05-16-2000, 02:48 PM #10axemanFirehouse.com Guest
The problem is very obvious. Hose doesn't belong on an aerial apparatus, that's what an Engine Company is for. Trucks were designed for specific tasks and hose lays and pumping aren't it. Leave that work for the engine companies. Your talking about a quint, an apparatus that was dedigned to eliminate firefighters by using 1 apparatus to do the work of 2 with half the personnel, it's wrong and as a professional firefighter nobody should endorse their use. Plain and simple, they arer nothing more than swiss army knifes, pull out a tool at each end and try doing 2 tasks at once.... Can't be done can it?
05-17-2000, 05:05 AM #11TRUCK121Firehouse.com Guest
Simply with Quints, it's a good thing to have the flexibility of an Engine **AND** a truck on the same piece. No more being screwed with ladder ops if the first due engine didn't pull ahead of the job... now you are the engine too.
No more having to be stuck with your head between your knees if something happened to the engine while it was coming to your fire.
No more having to tell someone "We'll put the fire out, just wait till the other truck gets here"
If you train with a quint right, and set procedures on how things are gonna work, a quint can be the best and most flexible addition to anyones fleet.
Our truck is only slightly larger then an engine. We can put it any where a fire truck is gonna have to go. It shows up with 6 firefighters ready for WHATEVER task they are needed to do. If the engine is already on scene, then we operate as the truck company. If we are first due, then we prioritize functions. Usually 2 guys stretch a line, 2 guys start the search, and the officer does his duties and begins preperation for ventilation. Our pump operator can put the ladder in service from the pump panel so that eliminates another task.
See... if you practice and do things the common scence way, quints can be your best friends on a fire scene... But that's just my opinion. Don't knock 'em till you try 'em!
05-17-2000, 01:48 PM #12Bob SnyderFirehouse.com Guest
First, on the LDH issue...
We have a quint, on which we carry 4", 3" and 2.5" (preconnected) in the rear hose beds. We've had the rig since 1980, and we've never had problems with anything hanging up. I think that the reasons for this are as follows:
1. The 4" side of the hose bed has straight, flush sides at the opening, so that there is really nothing to catch, and the turntable does not hang over into the hosebed space. It's not designed quite the same way as the rig S. Cook posted the picture of, but it's the same general idea in this respect. If you're buying used, you can at least look for rear hose bed openings that have a minimum chance of hang-ups.
2. We use only Stortz couplings on our LDH, which aren't likely to catch on anything.
3. Similar to Truck121, we pack the majority of the LDH lay, including ALL of the couplings, behind the turntable. We also try to keep the couplings to the outside (where they have a straight shot out of the bed) as much as possible. We allow some lower layers of hose to lay next to the turntable near the end of the hose bed, but allow plenty of room for couplings to get out below the level of the turntable.
That's about all I can say there.
On the quint issue...
We run both a straight 100' ladder and a 55' quint. They serve different purposes and, when used properly, provide lots of flexibility. In a suburban/rural volunteer setting, where access to scenes and manpower are both questionable at times, we've found this combination to be invaluable. And, you CAN run attack and aerial ops from the same piece at the same time...done it many times.
Axeman's got an "axe to grind" (I just couldn't resist) because he's apparently seen quints used to reduce manpower in a carrer setting. I'd agree with him that, if the decision to deploy quints is made solely on the basis of cost reduction and if this affects safety on the fireground, then it's a bad idea. BUT...if that's happening, the flaw is with either the local government or the Fire Department's executive command, it's not in the quints themselves. It's certainly not fair to say that "as a professional firefighter nobody should endorse their use". There are a lot of us (some are even career FFs, I'd even guess) out here who not only endorse, but depend on, their use...maybe what you meant to say was, "as a UNION REPRESENTATIVE, nobody should endorse their use." That might be more accurate.
05-29-2000, 02:24 PM #13ffshotimeFirehouse.com Guest
Lets clarify that there are several styles of chutes on quints. While Truck 121 and Bob S. hasnt experienced any hang-ups with their "semi-chutes" we have a "full chute" and have had plenty of hang-ups. What I am calling a "full chute" is a totally enclosed chute that runs from the bed to the rear of the apparatus. We also have storz fittings. When the hose is confined on all four sides it leaves no margin for error when the hose deploys. None. No twist, no turn, no nothing.Please keep this in mind when specing an apparatus or searching for used.
06-24-2000, 11:00 AM #14FireMedic38Firehouse.com Guest
We have a '95 Pierce 100' Platform. Our hose bed is designed to carry 100' of 5". We decreased that to 800' because we found it to load and deploy a little easier. We also have Storz couplings on all ours. All the hose is loaded using dutchmans if needed so the hose does not have to flip over. An obvious thing, but worth mentioning I think. We have not had a coupling hang up in the chute yet. The chute itself holds almost 100'. I do have pictures of the load I could send you via e-mail if you'd like them.
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