Thread: 95' and the $ to purchase.....
06-08-2000, 02:24 PM #1Scene25Firehouse.com Guest
95' and the $ to purchase.....
Hello all. I am writing this to try and find out who has the best aerial in the market for the price.
My department has $550,000 in the budget for next year, and we are beginning to spec out what we want. The last piece we looked at was a 95' American LeFrance. The chief states that we can probably only afford a 75' platform, but in my opinion, if you are going to buy a piece of equipment, buy what you need. We have numerous churches, businesses, highrise etc, and 75' just wont cut it. Most members agree with me, and it is pretty much impossible to raise $200,000 to cover the overhead of a 95' piece. Any input will be greatly appreciated.
The specs we are talking is a custom cab..minimum of 6 person, and 95' platform. Anyone that can help out please do.
Thanks and be safe.
Clairton Fire Dept
06-19-2000, 11:14 PM #2Batt #2Firehouse.com Guest
If money is a problem look into a lease program. Pierce has a very impressive lease program and a even more impressive mid-mount ladder. You only get what you pay for. If you want a good piece of apparatus don't just look at the low dollar figure take a look at servie centers, units in service and so on.
06-22-2000, 10:30 AM #3STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
At approx. 22:00 hrs last night, my volunteer dept. did what you speak of. We got City Council approval to purchase a 95' Ladder Tower Quint made by E-One. We went with the lease purchase over 7 yrs. Our first payment isn't due until 2001 (FY after delivery) at approx. $117,000.00. That payment would continue for the seven yr. period. As far as who to buy from. Alot of people know my opinion on apparatus and aerials in particular. E-One has the safest, easiest, most durable and capable aerials and towers made. Be safe.
Can you name another aerial maker who has never had a failure?
06-22-2000, 05:12 PM #4Tower59Firehouse.com Guest
E-One makes fantastic piece of equipment. as long as you have no hills to set up on. If your area is relatively flat then you have a great piece. If you have very hilly terrain well i think you may be disappointed. We had two types of apparatus come to our town and we did not choose E-one For this reason.
great truck though love the way it is built.
just not the best on hills.
07-08-2000, 08:58 AM #5Scene25Firehouse.com Guest
Thank you all for your input. It looks as if we are gonna go with either E-One or Sutphen. We are battling the differences between the 2, as well as the normal "personal preference". Thanks and be safe.
Clairton Fire Dept
07-09-2000, 11:45 PM #6grc063Firehouse.com Guest
In response to Station2's comment about "can U name another manufacturer that has never had a ladder failure". Your're correct. I do not know of any E-One aerial devices either tipping over or failing due to operator error. HOWEVER, I'm sure everyone has seen "All Companies Working" which is a photo book based on primarily Boston area Firefighting. There is a photo in there of a Boston FD ladder Co., (E-One device), with ONLY the bed section remaining. The other pieces are seen laying in the background, as they MELTED off the truck due to exposure to high heat.
So - Can U name another aerial manufacturer that has had their ladder melted off the truck"
If aluminum aerials are the way to go, then why does'nt every aerial manufacturer offer them?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Just my .02 worth.
Scene25, there is a dept. nearby that has a mid-80's Sutphen 100+ tower that has repeatedly had the bucket crunched, due to the fact that the driver cannot see the bucket in the mirrors. Just a word of caution.
07-10-2000, 10:16 AM #7Scene25Firehouse.com Guest
Thanks for the input, and it looks as if the price will rise once again for a driver camera viewing the rear of the aerial. : )
Take Care and Be Safe
Clairton Fire Dept
07-10-2000, 04:25 PM #8Tower59Firehouse.com Guest
that is not the fault of the manufactureer.
That is poor driver training and sop.
We own a Sutphen aerial and have no problems with it. If You drive it and you back it up and you wreck it because you did not have a spotter then guess who pays for repairs?
Keep it simple stupid. KISS The army demand a spotter on every vehicle when you back it up as do we. Has never failed yet.
I still believe if you wreck a truck it is poor operators. not the truck. we have a driver that can put it anywhere you ask him he is very good.
Plus try to set a steal ladder up on a Hill.
lol Great truck when all it can do is show up to scene and set there cause hill to steep to set up on.
I not suere that we have to wrroy about the heat problem that you brought up. That is a
department to department thing. we are not going to see the fires that Boston does to small a town. Our Problem would definately be more toward the rust end of it.
Lastly Sutphen is only 100 miles from us so anytime we need repairs we go there. I like
having the factory close.
I think most trucks today are very good. I think that you need to look at the things in your town and weigh each pro and con from each manufacturer.
07-19-2000, 03:37 PM #9Kevin WhiteFirehouse.com Guest
Just in case any of you want to know, Boston is leaving E-One. Maybe not all together but it is a lock in that the next round of aerials will not be E-Ones. Chief Christian is big into tower ladders and has plans to purchase 4 midmount tower ladders. Last time I checked, E-One doesnt make a midmount. Pierce is loaning their midmount tower to Boston for 2 months very soon, after Baltimore I would assume. They also demoed their 85' rearmount tower. Also, American Lafrance demoed a midmount tower ladder from Yonkers NY to Chief Christian. E-One is dying to Pierce big time in my area. Cities/towns in my area just north of Boston, that were all E-One, are dropping E-One like flies in favor of the Pierce pumps/aerials. I know of at least 3-4 towns that were E-One and now have changed to Pierce. Just thought Id bring that little tidbit about Bostons relationship, or lack thereof, with E-One to those who cared since someone brought up Boston in their comments.
07-19-2000, 06:03 PM #10jemarFirehouse.com Guest
Take a look at my post under apparatus innovation. E-ONE vs. OSHKOSH
It has information on the background of pierce.
07-21-2000, 06:09 PM #11STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
GRC063 aluminum is the way to go in my opinion for aerial devices. Why purchase something so important to your dept and so expensive yet forget about the effects of weather and service in terms of its lifetime. Build out of something that isn't going to rust, is proven and gets the job done. Name an aerial maker that makes steel aerials or towers that has never had a failure or tipover? LTI, Seagrave, Pierce, Aerialscope, AI, etc. Give me just one. If aluminum is so flawed for an aerial, then why did Pierce aquire a Canadian company because of its aluminum aerial line? E-One aerials, in my opinion, are not the best only because they are made of aluminum. Their outrigger design, hydraulics and overall design is superior.
Kevin White. I think I heard before "Why doesn't E-One make a tillered aerial?" Now after appropriate engineering and development they do. E-One didn't rush to enter that segment of the market until they had it right. Look for the same thing in the midmount tower ladder market segment. If Pierce brings there midmount tower ladder to Boston to let them try it out, then that is the best P.R. E-One could ask for. The Boston Tower Co. rig they are utilizing right now can go toe to toe with the new Pierce and take it in every area. While your at it, bring a Sutphen and a Aerialscope and compare them also. Be safe.
[This message has been edited by STATION2 (edited July 21, 2000).]
07-21-2000, 08:30 PM #12Kevin WhiteFirehouse.com Guest
Not trying to start an arguement like I know you are accustom to. Just pointing out fact. I know how you feel about E-One and if you go back and look at my post, it was all fact, not personnal opinion. I like E-One as well. However, I know for fact that their next aerial purchase will not be from E-One. While we are at it, if I had the proof infront of me, I would point out that I knew about the E-One tiller before you and brought it to the attention of the board "tiller vs rearmount". Sorry to call you on that but your wrong. Boston is in desparate need to replace some VERY used ladder trucks and cannot wait around for E-One to develope something. Larry, if you live near Boston or ever come here soon, take a trip to Ladder 7 in Roxbury or Ladder 21 in East Boston and you'll see what I mean.
And just to settle this, the Boston tower doesnt respond everywhere in the city. Mostly because of wear and tear issues with a 10 minute response to West Roxbury or Mattapan, its just too far out so an extra ladder is called to the scene in its place. However, there are areas in Boston like the North End, South Boston and Charlsetown in which because of spacing and houses too close if not on top of the sidewalk prevent the tower from fitting. There are areas in ladder 1's disrtict where it can barely and I mean barely fit with the single axle truck co. But like you have said, Boston jakes can do anything or just about anything. But even being that good, you cant move houses, so they send an extra ladder company in its place. I live right outside Boston and know a lot of Boston firefighters/chiefs. This comes from them and knowbody knows them like themselves.
Again, I just brought the Boston info to the forum here because of fact not personnal opinion. Didnt mean to stur up your desireable need for an arguement. Its all about fact. Even though I favor Pierce, youll see if you go back to the post that I defend not one single manufacturer because in the end, its not my decision so what I like just doesnt matter.
07-22-2000, 01:08 AM #13LHS'Firehouse.com Guest
...There are areas in ladder 1's disrtict where it can barely and I mean barely fit with the single axle truck co.
So how in the world are thy going to get a much longer, worse turning, tandem axle rig with a much wider set of jack to work? It doesn't make any sense.
07-22-2000, 02:12 AM #14Kevin WhiteFirehouse.com Guest
I think they were able to do it with the all wheel steer. If you've ever seen the all wheel steer, its pretty cool. I wasnt there when they brough in the rearmount tower. The midmount will be loaned to Boston most likely after the firehouse expo.
I go to Boston all the time so I know how bad the streets are. The city allows double and triple parking in certain areas of the city. That which makes it all the more difficult to manuver a piece of apparatus. If your ever in Boston, drive down Broadway in Southie and you'll know exactly what they have to put up with.
All I know is Chief Christian is big time into tower ladders and its been decided that he will purchase 4 as soon as they find something they like. However, time is of the essence because they have worn out a few of the current aerials. I actually wouldnt be suprised if Pierce let Boston keep the midmount as E-One donated the first Ladder Co. 17 which got Boston hooked on E-One. American LaFrance also demoed their 95' midmount LTI from Yonkers NY. I dont think Christian liked that as much as the Pierce but I cant speak for him. When I find out what they are getting, Ill report it here as one of my very good friends is just that with Chief Christian which is how I found out about his future purchase plan.
Its all about fact, not personnal opinion!!!!
07-22-2000, 09:57 AM #15STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
Kevin, your points are well taken. But I must add....
1) I am not accustomed to arguing as you have said. I, like you, present my opinion. I don't work for E-One and can't speak for them. I just know from my own personnel experience.
2) I never stated I knew about any tiller development by E-One before you or anyone else. I remember you posting that fact here. That was my first knowledge of it.
3) I don't doubt for a minute that Boston needs new rigs. They are well used and the brothers and sisters up there know their job and do it well. I wouldn't however blaim one builder for the problems of a fleet. Rigs get ragged out when they are run day in and day out and don't get replaced in a timely fashion. You could have a Sutphen (Like before) in its place and it would still get worn out. An aggressive apparatus replacement plan can do wonders. I never stated that Boston needs to wait for a development of a midmount tower by E-One. I just don't believe in going backwards in terms of capabilities and technology.
4) I also never stated that the Tower Co. responds city wide. I don't work for Boston and don't know their response guidelines in terms of limitations. But, like LHS said, if the Tower Co. can't respond now with their current rig because of limited space, how can something with a larger outrigger spread, longer chassis and wider turning radius gonna make it. Even if you forget about those problems you are still going backwards and further limiting yourself in terms of tip load, distributed load, company track record, safety margins, etc. It doesn't make sense to me.
5) I have no desire to argue. I post my opinions here as a firefighter. If at some point my opinions don't match someone elses than so be it. However, I don't like being told that I am wrong and their right merely because they said so. Someone shows me facts that counter my opinions and facts than I'll admit I am wrong as I have before. And when someone gets on here and starts with the "A good friend of mine who is related to the cousin of the driver of the 2nd Deputy Commissioner of the department in the next county" line I don't put much stock in it. I apologize in advance for that shortcoming in my personality. At the same time, I have a fault that most firefighters do. I will defend (Fight as you say) for my opinions and beliefs until the end. That may be confused as being argumentative. I call it standing up for my beliefs and convictions. Be safe.
07-22-2000, 12:31 PM #16Kevin WhiteFirehouse.com Guest
Thats what I like about you. You are very forward with your opinions and they are strong and full of factual information. I apologise to you for thinking differently of you. I was wrong and I shouldnt have worded some things the way I did.
I agree that E-One has a great product and that in due time, they too will have a midmount tower. Ive actually heard that they will have one shortly, but thats only rumor. I apologise if I made it look as if I was putting words in your mouth as far as Boston waiting for E-One to come up with a midmount. You were right about E-One taking their time with the tiller but with that in mind, all I was saying was that this time around, with Boston wanting to purchase midmounts, they cannot afford to wait, the aerials are in too bad a shape.
And just to put the issue to rest, I think the chief liked the all wheel steer on the Pierce trucks. They havent even used the Pierce midmount yet as I said it probably wont be loaned to them until after the Firehouse expo. There is a web site I would like for you to see where there is a picture of the 85' Pierce reamount tower that was demoed a couple weeks ago. The site is http://members.aol.com/firstdue94/index.html There is one picture which shows some of what Boston has to deal with in the narrower streets of South Boston. Not trying to prove my opinion but its a great picture of the demo. My guess is that Boston will make the change to Pierce but they still have some more investigating to do.
Again Larry, Im sorry for the misunderstanding and look forward to reading your posts as I always have. You know your job well and present your opinions very well. As you say.....be safe.
[This message has been edited by Kevin White (edited July 22, 2000).]
07-22-2000, 05:27 PM #17STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
Kevin, don't worry about it. Water under the bridge. As far the all wheel steer goes I have a question. Is that available on the midmount tower ladder they build? What exact problems are the E-One rigs in Boston having (Ladder Co. 7 and Ladder Co. 21)? Are they unhappy with the E-One tower in service currently? If they go with the Pierce, will it just be for the towers or is it a fleet replacement concept? Any idea where the four (4) "new" tower ladders will go? Will they replace existing Companies or will they be truely new Companies (I know the answer to that one already in these days and times)? If they go with the LTI is it going to be on the ALF chassis as demoed? As with the Pierce option, is the goal to get these LTI towers in service and replace all Truck Companies with LTI? Anyone else being looked at? Aerialscope has been doing this forever as has Sutphen. Any chance on them? If you would rather E-Mail me your reply its O.K. Be safe.
P.S.: Any other websites like the one you mentioned above (Pictures, department fleets, etc.)?
07-22-2000, 11:55 PM #18Kevin WhiteFirehouse.com Guest
Im not sure if the long range plan is to leave E-One all together or not. All I know is that they are looking at tower ladders since Chief Christian is big into tower ladders. Unfortunately, they cannot afford to wait for E-One to develop a midmount. My guess is Christian doesnt like E-One, because if he did, 4 new towers would have been ordered from them. Why go through a demo process with other companies if you were going to stay with the company thats been serving you for years? Especially seeing that Pierce will be demoing their second tower to Boston very soon. They can buy a rearmount tower from E-One, so why have Pierce demo a rearmount tower? Then they invite them back to try out the midmount tower, or Pierce offers the midmount to them on a trial basis. Sounds like a switch to me. On an interesting note, I brought this up earlier that E-One donated the first 110' rearmount to Ladder Co. 17 in Boston for keeps. Wouldnt suprise me if Pierce did the same with the midmount. Pierce is HUGE up here. I can name 10 cities around Boston that are all Pierce.
Anyways, as far as replacement goes, they are replacing exsisting ladder companies with the new rigs. Although, Boston is has plans to build and staff a new firehouse in South Boston which will create a new Engine and Ladder Co. One might end up there but I doubt it as that is months if not years away. I cant tell you if this tower ladder trend will stay throughout all future aerial purchases or not, but I wouldnt be suprised if it did.
American LaFrance demoed their midmount tower ladder in which the aerial devise is built by LTI. I believe that all of ALFs' larger aerials(90'+) are built by LTI. So if they go with ALF, then it would most likely be an ALF/LTI.
The Boston ladders are well used. Boston might not be as busy as New York or some other larger Dept's, but there are ladder companies in Boston that see a lot of fire. Ladder 7 is one of them. They run in Roxbury and see a lot of house fires. They are running currently with an 87 or 88 (I think but not quite sure on the year) 110' rearmount. Its pretty beat up. Ladder 21 is the same way. They see some fire in Boston but a lot of the fire they see comes from them running to fires in Chelsea, right outside their district in the City. Both were built before the four door cabs were introduced by E-One. There are a couple more that need replacement but the two I mentioned are the worst.
I hope this answers all your questions, if not, let me know and I'll try to answer you as best I can. There is one more web site that is awesome for Massachusetts fire department info, definately check it out, its: http://www.firenews.nols.com/ This is put together by a great friend of mine John. As far as any other sites go, I cant tell you off the top of my head, but that site I just mentioned has an awesome links page.
07-27-2000, 10:04 PM #19grc063Firehouse.com Guest
Just to confirm, the ONLY aerial device that is not made by LTI is the "Silver Eagle", which is the 75' stainless steel aerial device. This is Mfg. by Aerial Innovations. Otherwise, ALL other 75' and higher aerial devices & towers are made by ALF/LTI at Ephrata PA.
Also, to confirm the Yonkers unit is a 75'
07-29-2000, 07:00 AM #20srogersFirehouse.com Guest
In regards to STATION2's reply of July 21, what Canadian aerial manufactuer did Pierce acquire that had a line of aluminium aerial devices? I was aware that Pierce had purchased the rights and the equipment to build : SkyArm,SkyFive and SkyBoom from Novaquitech. The SkyArm and SkyFive were steel aerial devices(I believe that SkyFive was the basis of the new mid-mount tower from Pierce after modifications).
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