1. #26
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    S. Cook, we did catch the mistakes during the various inspections prior to delivery.

    There are plenty of towns who don't catch items prior to delivery. It shouldn't be an Easter egg hunt for problems. The problems that were caught include misplacing inspection doors, grease fittings, and electrical runs. Items that big are being misplaced for the convenience of the builder, or just plain incompetence.

    As for the sales people trying to change things, most items were minor, but one item was a inline foam system. we specified a high gpm system (sorry I don't remember the spacifics) designed to use a vindicator heavy attack line. And the bid came back with the standard 95 GPM line. It was a real sticking point. If we wouldn't have had experience with the process we probably would have ended up with the lower flow foam system.

    Manufacturers will do the absolute minimum that they have to. A friend of mine told me a story about a relativly large town in Illinois that was evaluating various nozzles. During the testing they couldn't generate enough pressure. They found the relief valve set too low for the spacific lay. It was the departments impression that the relief valve was pre set at the factory.

    As scary as that sounds, the blame has to be with their training department AND the manufacturer. You shouldn't have to spec extra owners manuals or an instructional video, or for that mater an instructor to inservice members of the department.

    A large company (like E-One, Pierce, Seagrave, pick one) will cut corners whenever they can. Take for example E-One, look at the construction of the compartments. A Pierce's compartments are solid on 5 sides Top, bottom, back, and both sides. Now look at E-One the compartments are open on the top. Just a piece of decorative diamond plate to cover it. Why do they do it, Because its less expensive to build that way. They are also just spot welded. While other manufacturers have a solid weld. It's just E-One cutting corners to save a buck.

    The goal of an apparatus builder should be to build the best most durable unit they can. Not to build as many as they can as fast as they can. It's our safety, be a smart buyer.

    [This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited September 12, 2000).]

  2. #27
    LHS'
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post


    ///ISO class 1 is basically the same rate as class 3. ///

    Yeah 26% discount is pretty much the same thing.

    ///What can a family who owns a single family home in your dist do with the extra savings, probably purchase an extra box of Kraft Mac and Cheese and a can of tuna. ///

    Oh, well, the truth is this the average home in my community saves $510 every single year. the average commercial property per 100,000 is saving $800 year every year, The contents is saving 1100 per 100K. the average renter saves, $493, the average farmer saves $13,650 and Yes we eat real good Kraft.

    Here are some sources around the US tat show how the rates are calculated.
    US National Bench Mark

    ISOô INSURANCE Per
    CLASS DISCOUNT $1000

    1
    2 26.2% $2.18
    3 13.8% $2.97
    4 4.5% $3.43
    5 17.8% $3.58
    6 12.8% $4.37
    7 13.6% $4.99
    8 9.6% $5.77
    9 11.5% $6.66
    10 $7.50

    *add $.90 for small mercantile

    Dwelling table A from the Texas Department of Insurance Bulletin B-0028-00, 1 year base fire rate per $1,000.00 of coverage
    Class Brick BrkVnr Asbs/Stucco Frame
    1 0.36 0.43 0.94 1.41
    2 0.36 0.43 0.94 1.41
    3 0.49 0.58 1.30 1.91
    4 0.57 0.68 1.50 2.22
    5 0.59 0.71 1.56 2.32
    6 0.71 0.86 1.91 2.81
    7 0.82 0.98 2.19 3.22
    8 0.96 1.13 2.51 3.73
    9 1.07 1.22 2.75 4.27
    10 1.21 1.37 3.09 4.81


    According to the SCOPES Manual a $274,000 unsprinkled masonry wood frame 3 story restaurant would pay:

    Class
    10 $2504
    9 $2331
    8 $2033
    7 $1997
    6 $1964
    5 $1915
    4 $1857
    3 $1830
    2 $1808
    1 $1783

    //I've also heard that your vehicles can't leave the state because they are so overweight. ///

    Oh really, does the source have a name? The state of nevada motor carrier division follows the same rules as CA, UT, and AZ. Who knows about ID or OR. But we've been inall those states except AZ. We have 15% of the axle capacity remaining on each rig. If what you are sayingis true then every tower ladder or single axle quint or pumper with 3000 gallons of water is overweight in all those states. WRONG.

    ///I think your drivers should go back to school and learn how to operate their apparatus. If someone can't keep the ladder out of the powerlines they shouldn't be driving/operating that rig.//

    Ok, how do you see through smoke and steam? Are you telling me you can position a ladder without seeig the end better at the bed than at the tip or off to the side? Does it snow, ever get fog in your area? Is it ever dark? YOu can direct a stream of water better from the bed than the tip or off to the side? Ever heard of the need to abandon the apparatus and still control streams? Do you know what corker is? How do you look over a bulk storage tank? Ever squirt water or combustable metals? Do you know anything about the distanc from the tip of the ladder to a power source or the rate of eletricity travel through a fire stream? Do you really think the operator and those around the rig will stay off the rig? Good grief man. Yeah I'll just jump vlear I don't think so. Why do the two largest builders of aerials make wireles remotes. The largest builder of industrial towers as well?

    ///I hope your still reading, it doesn't feel to good when someone starts to pick appart everything you say. //

    Sure it does with silly responses like yours!

    ///The last 4 rigs we purchased had several things wrong with them and it was only because of our hard nosed mechanic that thoes things got fixed.///

    Dammit boy, you got all the way home without finding them and you're bragging about it? It is easier to fix there than at home. Either you had a waranty or you didn't, tey either honor it or you call the city attorney.



  3. #28
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "Manufacturers will do the absolute minimum that they have to."

    Specs are minimums and that's what there going to do. Spec it and hold 'em to it.

    "You shouldn't have to spec extra owners manuals or an instructional video, or for that mater an instructor to inservice members of the department."

    But you do. It's like your EMS rule - if you didn't write it down, you didn't do it. If you didn't spec it, chances are you ain't gonna get it. It's the nature of the beast, occuring in every business that requires specifications. Maybe they 'should' do what we think would be the right thing but if we don't spec it, we didn't ask for it. They can't read our mind.

    "It was the departments impression that the relief valve was pre set at the factory."

    How long has this department been in business? Was this their first apparatus? How about their first one with a relief valve? A large city turns these folks loose with $300,000 worth of equipment? Training, training, training.

    "The goal of an apparatus builder should be to build the best most durable unit they can."

    I agree. The less durable the rig, the less sales their gonna get, the more their reputation runs down the drain and the more money their investors lose. But the big 2 (E-1 and Pierce) are still the busiest. If they're ripping folks off, I don't understand how, unless they're only dealing with complete idiots.

    I wasn't an E-One fan by any means prior to this purchase, heard too many bad things, frames cracking, electrical problems, you name it.

    When they jumped into the bid for our apparatus, I chased almost every lead on the E-One stories here in Texas. Called FD mechanics, emails, an independant repair shop, everyone I could think of. All had pretty much the same stories - no more problems with E-1 than any other builder, and "our frames didn't crack, it was something all together different" (see E-One issues forum). Ultimately it all boiled down to some fireman ain't riding the brand of rig he likes and he's just gonna bitch about it.

    I'm not saying your experience is the same, you may have bigger problems than these, but that is what it was here.

    I do the purchasing for our FD and I know some sales people that are crooked as a dog's leg. I don't do business with them and they know why. When their boss calls and asks why, I let them know it, and let them know the other 9 departments and employer I help in purchasing won't be buying from them either (one company can't believe we won't deal with them because they didn't send the suspenders they said they would but that's another story).

    If we get ripped off on these rigs, guess which company won't get the next 1, 10, 15 or 20. And I'll put the word out too.

  4. #29
    391HD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it. It was probably a good selling point, but have ALL your taxpayers actually realized a savings for investing in the big boys, big toys?
    How many insurance companies actually follow the ISO grading schedule when underwriting insurance? Insurance companies are in the business of making a profit, not losing money. If premiums go down because of a lower ISO rate, the companies will certainly adjust the premium rates paid to recover any losses.
    Remember, number one priority of the fire service should be the protection of life and limb, second, the protection of property. To be of REAL service to your taxpayers, provide EMS as well. There will be many more calls for EMS than for fire service, and you'll be truly helping the community.

    The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles, and produce common models for municipalities to purchase. Such a program would eliminate the partial bidding process and extravagant showpieces, thereby truly saving the taxpayers money. The insurance companies would probably be happy as well.

    All in all, the fire apparatus is only as good as the people who operate it.

  5. #30
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it."

    Typical call at the station...

    "Fire department"

    "Hi this is so and so and I live at 123 Jeapordy Lane. I have a question about my insurance."

    "Sure what can we help you with?"

    "My insurance just went up $105 becuase the underwriter said the agent made a mistake when he quoted my fire rate at a class 5. They say it's actually a class 7."

    "No ma'am, actually you're in a class 9 area and your rate increase should be around $300."

    "Oh?"

    "But we're trying to get you and the other 18,000 homes with class 9s to class 5." (For those that need the math, that's $540,000 a year for homeowners alone.)

    Still don't believe me click this link: http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/consumer/rghome.html#top and select any county from the drop down list box (mine is Hood).

    See those A, B, C and D's? Those are the rates for the following from insurance companies. This is information they provided the Texas Department of Insurance

    A is a brick class 4
    B is a wood class 4
    C is a brick class 9
    D is a wood class 9

    Looking at Hood, Allstate Indemnity is there not a $571 difference between a class 4 wood and class 9 wood?

    How about Allstate Texas Lloyds, is that a $633 difference between a class 4 brick and a class 9? How about that $1,226 difference between class 4 wood and class 9?

    If you run out the rest, you'll see there is a average of $320 difference between class 4 and class 9.

    Need more proof?

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 13, 2000).]

  6. #31
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I forgot my point from the earlier post.

    So what's my point?

    We have the power. We can change any part of the apparatus industry we want, we just have to band together.

    If somebody is building junk, get all the departments that are ****ed about it together and get things changed or put them out of business.

    If you want a Euro rig that has swap boxes on it, then by all means get it. Somebody will build it to your specifications.

    If you want full welds around the compartments then spec it.

    If a department feels they're being ripped off, hold someone accountable - the manufacturer, the buyer. It is somebody's fault, it just don't happen.

    If you want your rig built a certain way, spec it that way. If the manufacturer balks, trust me someone else will build it.

    Leo wants us to believe the europeans have it all over us and have apparatus that is so much better, yet he refuses to give examples.

    Like I said earlier, don't confuse different with better.

    You get what you settle for.

  7. #32
    LeoVincent
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well I appreciate the gentleman who made my point for me about the rear mounted apparatus. The part about being pinned in by a rear ender was the pretty much accepted party line that we decided would be the reason for not recomending these trucks.

    Of course, this is on a mythical fire scene where there is no traffic control and no other vehicle parked behind the pumper. These speeding cars that fly through this fire scene of course would always miss the poor operator of the side mounted panel, or the guy trying to hook a line to the opposite side (depending on which sid was facing the speedway). And there is the guy on the midship walkway who would would be magically anchored in such accidents.

    I am sorry to be flip, but I started this conversation to try to make people think. I left the business because it was giving me ulcers. I knew what firefighters faced (I had been one up to the rank of captian) and I was sickened by the crap the companies were doing. No firefighter was ever helped by his truck haveing cast aluminum cab corners, but E-one has justified being 10k or more over priced on just such a spec item. You think people won't buy from companies who rip people off. Ferrara was still in business last time I looked and they sued one fire department for not accepting their low bid even though it did not meet some of the specs. (The department was Morgan City, LA. and even though they eventually won the suit, their truck delivery was delayed 2 years, There was no penalty to Ferrara).

    What I was talking about was not a bad company building rattle trap apparatus. I am talking about the huge amounts of money wasted playing the "Spec Game". If fire departments would bid out trucks based on performance and safety specs, you would get much better apparatus at a lower price. But as soon as that salesman becomes involved in the process, bam, there is that one little word, or phrase that creeps in and changes the whole game. Often companies won't even bid because they see tell tale phrasing that indicates the spec originated from Pierce or E-one, or who ever. The think the chief is in bed with the spec writer and it is a waste of time. The chief many times has no idea and just wanted some help with the technical aspects of construction so he didn't get a bad truck.

    I don't own stock in any fire apparatus company. I don't even have anything to do with the biz anymore. I work for a gentleman who runs a vintage automobile company. I wanted to offer some views from the inside so that perhaps people would think a bit more. I ran into the same sort of resistance 10 years ago, and as long as everyone is all knowing, learning can't happen.

    ------------------
    Leo Vincent
    Fire@westcoastvintage.com
    Seeking Firewolf Industries Items!

  8. #33
    LHS'
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///"It was the departments impression that the relief valve was pre set at the factory."//

    Sounds like they've never read nfpa 1901 delivery tests have they?

    Why would anyone buy a fire truck and not inspect it at the factory? Was your new house perfect? Absolutely foolish nt to review yor rig, you don't have codes in town and not use an inspector to verify the licensed contractor did it right do you?

    ///Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it.//

    Just like S Cooks state my/our rates are regulated by the state as they are in 47 other states. You bet I can prove it, they are published by the state.

    ///but have ALL your taxpayers actually realized a savings for investing in the big boys, big toys?//

    Gee you mean the $53 dollars invested per taxpayer, divided over the lease term of less than $6 per person a year???? Do you think dropping froma Class 9/10 to a Class 1 saved at least $6 a year? More like $835.

    We have letters from the school district alone that exceeds each year total pay out for the fleet.

    The survey we ran of our firefightrs showed all of them had substantial reimbursements. I had the least $61 a year, but I have a fully sprinkled home.

    ///How many insurance companies actually follow the ISO grading schedule when underwriting insurance?///

    Here just like where Scook is from 100% it is the law. Actually in Texas two companies are not regulated but will be in January.

    Yes there is a maximum and a minimum they can charge based upon the rating. Every single carrier is listed for the public to see as are commnity ratings.

    /// Insurance companies are in the business of making a profit, not losing money. If premiums go down because of a lower ISO rate, the companies will certainly adjust the premium rates paid to recover any losses.///

    Really? According to Don Sullivan, executive vice president of State Farm Fire and Casualty Company the nationís largest insurance carrier(27% of the nations policies), ďWe believe that homeowners who support improvements in fire protection through their tax dollars should be rewarded with lower insurance rates.Ē "We offer a 62% reduction in premiums paid depending upon the level of fire protection offered by the community." "That is a difference of as much as $647 a year on a $120,000 home every year for 10 or 15 years!" ďAny property found paying the wrong premium will be adjusted within 30 days."

    Well call this guy and ask him State Farm along with three other companies All State, Farmers, and USAA write 80% of the nations homeowners policies. Source the Insurance Industry Information Center.

    In Scotts state hundreds of communities hadtheir rates change overnight. Very well published. If the rating changes good or bad so does the premiums.

    So yes, there is plenty of evidence.

    ///Remember, number one priority of the fire service should be the protection of life and limb, second, the protection of property. .///

    So do you feel we are not offering quality fire protection for our community? Providing a real service isn't handing back 15 dollars for every dollar you take in on top of offering the highest level of fire protection possible? Through our understanding of insurance we handed back $186,000 in cash every single year to government. We made so much money on EMS the county took it back. Yep we only run 3 fulltime paramedic ambulances in a town of 7000

    ///The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles, and produce common models for municipalities to purchase. ///

    Wow there is an idea. Two mechanics per single station fire station just like the military? Who do you know buys off th military contracts? Who has anything good to say about military apparatus? It worked so poorly now they buy direct from whoeverthey want instead of using the government system. P-8, p-12 great pumpers, yeah right, two of thelast gas rigs ever built. P-15's you could only drive once a week or if there was a crash. A whole slew of builders all curretly out of business. Yep that's who I'd buy from.

    ////Such a program would eliminate the partial bidding process and extravagant showpieces, thereby truly saving the
    taxpayers money.///

    Oppps you said saving money not offering the best fire protection possible, you're contradicting yourself. Cheap isn't better.

    ///If you want full welds around it

    with a door onlly 1/3 as thick as the guy who welds four or five places. The choice is yours. one offers a 10 year 100% warranty the other is 10 years and pro-rated, if you have the body inspected every year at their place for 2500 to 4000 bucks, no inspection warranty ends in 12 months. Simple detail stuff, no biggie.

    <<< but E-one has justified being 10k or more over priced on just such a spec item.>>

    I guess it would depends on how you look at it. I know one city in the top 5 largest in the country sending back fire trucks and so are their neighbors. Why body cracking litterally in half. The 10K more rigs aren't going back the ones who don't need the extrusions are.

    ////You think people won't buy from companies who rip people off.

    An excellent example of wrtting someone out of your specs
    .///If fire departments would bid out trucks based on performance and safety specs, you would get much better apparatus at a lower price. But as soon as that salesman becomes involved in the process,

    Our last three rigs had a spec 4 pages long that didn't list a single component by name or manufacturer. We got 7 feet of bigs for 21 outfits, never had a salesman, never let them call on us either. The rigs turned



  9. #34
    8 Engine
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    What we need is affordable innovation. You can pretty much get whatever you want anywhere, just write the spec and someone will come through. But it comes at a cost. You might drive by our hall and notice that our rig is plane jane and not terribly innovative at all. Not because we don't want innovation, but because we can't afford it.

    We have a staff of under 20 volunteer members, operate on an annual budget in the neighborhood of $4,000, and can barely keep our firefighters dressed in OSHA certified gear. Our newest rig, a 1994 Freightliner/Darley 2-seater can't hold a draft despite looks by Darley and some mechanics. Then there's the '76 Ford pumper that dies enroute to the scene about 20% of the time. How about the converted tanker with a stick shift from hell, top speed 20MPH uphill? The converted beer truck for everything else? Reading about the LHS uber truck makes us wish we could even argue about this kind of stuff.

    Super-duper trucks are nice, but until even a lowly vollie outfit like ours can afford some of it, you're still going to lose firefighters over the issue of savings and affordability.

    No I don't have an answer for that, I wish I did. You still see non-innovative trucks, because that's all a lot of departments can afford. We deal with it anyway.

    [This message has been edited by 8 Engine (edited September 13, 2000).]

  10. #35
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    OK this is off topic, but to address 391HD's "theory" again. Call recieved at the station not 5 hours ago...

    "Fire department"

    "Yes this is so and so with You Need It Insurance and I have some questions."

    "Sure what can I do for you"

    "House at 12345 Stonerock Drive, who is the department that responds and what apparatus?"

    So we go through all that and I ask...

    "OK, I helped you now it's your turn"

    "OK what do you need?"

    "That's a class 10 area, what's the rate?"

    "Well we just right fire policy, but it's a little over $2500.00 a year on the $350,000 insured value."

    "OK, what if it was a class 5?"

    "It would be less than $1,500 a year (over $1,000 to be saved)."

  11. #36
    NCFiremedic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles///

    I work on a military base and volunteer out in town. Let me just say this. My little volunteer town has better equipment the the military installation. Don't get me wrong, The Pierces we have were good trucks when purchased, but things run astray when military mechanics who are more interested in fixing garbage trucks then doing PM's on FD vehicles. Also military specs have nothing to do with what local agencies need. Only a braod spectrum. I personally would rather have a say in what I'm getting and leave out some bean counter that has no clue what me or my brothers need.

    P.S.
    Whenever I post a message the thread ussually stops. Please try to keep this one going. It's interesting to see informative replies.

  12. #37
    P.P.
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question


    There is large savings going from an ISO 9 to say an ISO 5. But what would the savings for a single family home to go from an ISO 3 to a ISO 1, vs the cost for the department to reach that ISO 1 level.

    It is my understanding that the cost to go from a 3 to a 1 is not cost effective for a mostly residental area.

    Stay Safe!

    P.P.

  13. #38
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Here I am sitting at my computer reading this, I just got back from one of those so called vacations in Ocala, Fla. I'm glad I don't have to do anything tomorrow because I'm tired. Pretty exhausting crawling all over and thru 6 tankers and 2 pumpers.

    At first, I had listened to other people about that won't work, It's TOO big, that salseman is lying to you, They will say anything to sell you a truck, ETC,ETC.

    Well I got proved wrong!! I ate my words. The truck will do what the salseman said. As for finding problems with the truck, Yes we found them and they were fixed. We even realized things we left out of our specs that were added after the fact.

    Now did we find all the problems ourselves? NO! Thats where a inspector comes into play. You don't buy a house without one.

    As for innovation, I can't think of anything on our trucks that has not already been tried and tested in the field. but let me tell you it is top line innovation we have in our trucks.

    Just like S.Cook has said , If you want it, Spec it!!! Don't Assume they will build it just like you wanted it.


    Thanks,
    Buck

    Boy that crow taste like crud!!!

  14. #39
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Gawd did I screw my numbers up. Here's the recalculated totals.... (It's still worth it)

    "It is my understanding that the cost to go from a 3 to a 1 is not cost effective for a mostly residental area."

    Texas Dept. of Insurance numbers (via the post from LHS') show an average savings of .30 cents per $1,000 going from a 3 to a 2 or 1.

    The average home insured value in my area of Texas is around $80,000.

    So, 80 X $.30 = $24.

    Now, there are about 18,000 homes in my area at present (and we're growing rapidly) so that would that be... 18,000 X $24 = $432,000. 1 and 1/2 times our present budget.

    Over 10 years that equals = $4,320,000

    And that's on top of the more than $1 million + a year we already save 2,000 of them that live in the city and doesn't count the break from class 5 to 4 and 4 to 3.

    If that's not cost effective I don't know what is.

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 14, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 14, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 17, 2000).]

  15. #40
    LHS'
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You're a real man BUCK!!!!!!! You had concerns, yall hired an inspector, and you sent crews to go back and inspect the product. So the big tankers turn ok I gather?????

    Nice talking with you the other day, I believe we are kindred spirits.

  16. #41
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS Can I buy insurance from you?

    I just finished talking to an agent with Farmers Insurance, and he told me that their is NO savings on a single family home if your town has an ISO of 1. As a matter of fact you will pay the same if your town has a rating of 4 or a rating of 1.

    Also I would consider moving, you said that the "average home in my community saves $510 every single year." Well full coverage on a home that is insured for $140,000 costs $322.00 per year. Does that mean that the insurance co will pay me $188.00 a year to cover my house?

    As for your other comments, they aren't worth responding to. As usuall you missed the point and now are taking everything personal.

    Stay Safe and buy smart

  17. #42
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ADSN/WFLD, 1 - 3part question, 1 comment

    1. What class is that house insured at now? What would the rate be if it was a class 10? How much is the difference?

    2. If Farmers won't break at 4 to 3, somebody else will. Two options for the homeowner in this case: shop around or keep paying higher rates.

    BTW it was a Farmers rep that called the station yesterday.

  18. #43
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    The town I live in is an ISO class 4, The agent stated that the rates wouldn't get any lower. To Farmers, and probably everyone else in this area (they all play by the same rule book) a lower ISO doesn't mean anything. I did do some shopping prior to getting Farmers and everyone is basically the same. ($20 oneway or the other doesn't make a difference to me).
    What if I lived in a town with an ISO of 10? sure, my rates would be a lot higher, but that wasn't the original question.

    When you look at ISO and the entire rating system, from a 5 to 4 or 3 to 2, or wh

  19. #44
    Thomas
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I think that the ability to "make money off the tax payers racket" is what is eating at some people.

    Think about it...we pay taxes...and for what?

    Schools
    Police
    Medical care
    Fire protection
    etc...

    I know that evryone is entitled to make a profit but...when is the taxpayer supposed to feel safe...that they have gotten a "bang for their buck"?

    If ISO or NFPA says this truck needs to meet this requirement, then why don't they?


    Yes the rules change, typically for the better.

    Yes each community has different needs.. this being true then why have a standard such as ISO/NFPA.

    If the manufacturer's are not held to these, then really what good do they due to the taxpayer? We end up giving a false sense of security to the taxpayer because they trust us. Yet they do not realize that we have to send inspectors, consultants, etc to make sure the OEM is giving us what we pay for!

    LHS,
    have you ever purchased a new car and dropped the gas tank to make sure it is properly grounded?
    If you have good for you, personally I assume that the car manufacturer has followed the NEC for my protection.

    Have you ever heard of MMS?

    You should think a minute that there are several organization's that are HELD to various standards!!! yet these organizations are still able to make a profit. Companies like Exxon, Texaco, Conoco can only conduct their refining business in a safe manner. The equipment they buy has to meet various codes/standards set up buy our government and our National Board of Insurance. If the equipment does not meet the standards, then the OEM is held liable and held accountable!

    Here is another example...

    The pharmacy companies. Their product has to meet the FDA approval before it is allowed access to the public. Why? DAH..to protect the taxpayer! This product is tested and held to certain standards. What happens if a drug does not meet these? I bet you can't get it!

    Too all...
    So, why not hold the fire apparatus manufacturer's to the standards in place? Why are we given the ability to purchase the inadequate protection for our community? Are home builders allowed to build a house without a roof?


    Buck,
    You seem happy. Great! I know you did not "catch" everything. What did you miss? I don't know, but if you felt like you had to go and inspect an item you spec'd, then why buy it from that vendor?

    Just my views...


    be safe and remember #1!!!!

  20. #45
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///So, why not hold the fire apparatus manufacturer's to the standards in place? Why are we given the ability to purchase the inadequate protection for our community? Are home builders allowed to build a house without a roof?///

    Thomas,

    If you want a house built without a roof all you have to do is spec it that way.

    ///You seem happy. Great! I know you did not "catch" everything. What did you miss? I don't know, but if you felt like you had to go and inspect an item you spec'd, then why buy it from that vendor?///

    Have you ever bought a house? Did you "CATCH" every thing wrong with it before you bought it? Hired an inspector, huh? Did he catch everything? Did you call a sales agent and tell them you want a house and what you wanted, color, layout, brick,sq. footage,ETC,ETC. And the arent said yes I got one just like you want. Did you say I'll take it sight unseen? How about a custom home?
    Get a set of blue prints and all the specs done and tell the home builder to build it. Would you go check it out several times as they are building it? and if you did why would you buy from that vendor, you must not trust them?

    LHS'

    Yes I have to say the tankers blew me away. They performed better than I could believe.

    S.Cook

    I not trying to pick on you but your math is a little wrong. 18000X$24 =$432,000.

    10 years = $4,320,000

    ///The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles, and produce common models for municipalities to purchase. Such a program would eliminate
    the partial bidding process and extravagant showpieces, thereby truly saving the taxpayers money. ///

    391HD,

    While we are at it might as well get everybody the same uniforms and build all the stations the same and have just one great big book of SOP's and hell, lets just let the federal goverment run the fire dept. Also lets add EMS to it.

    I can see it now ARMY, AIR FORCE, NAVY, MARINES, COAST GUARD, FIRE/RESCUE, EMS.

    Might as well be a Communist counrty.
    What a great idea?

    Buck

  21. #46
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "I not trying to pick on you but your math is a little wrong. 18000X$24 =$432,000.

    10 years = $4,320,000"

    Sure is, must have fat-fingered a key. It's still more than our annual county FD budget though (~$300K).


    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 17, 2000).]

  22. #47
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post




    /////
    LHS Can I buy insurance from you? Also I would consider moving, you said that the "average home in my community saves $510 every single year." Well full coverage on a home that is insured for $140,000 costs $322.00 per year. ///

    I know the chart I posted that your insurance man uses was too hard for you to understand, so Iíll do the math for you. $140,000 x factor for a Class 4 = $310.80. You said you pay $322. So your argent is ripping you off, Iím SORRY! If you were a Class 1 heíd owe you $113.40 a year or the value of the rating for yo is 1701.

    Class 10 to a Class 4 savings is $362.20. Apparently, our homes cost more than yours.

    You donít need to buy from me silly, youíre already paying what the chart says youíll pay ad saving what the charts say youíll saveÖBUT Iím SORRY I WAS OFF BY 3 percent.

    ////Does that mean that the insurance co will pay me $188.00 a year to cover my house?//

    Think about the question, look at the chart, they already are handing you money back.

    //. ($20 oneway or the other doesn't make a difference to me)

    Letís do the math together.

    $20 times 1000 homes times the insurance rating period equals 3 Million dollars

    5000 homes 15 million dollars

    10,000 homes 30 million dollars.

    Why when you represent the fire service wouldnít this matter to you?
    .
    Take your FD budget divide it by the number of homes, I bet the $20 is a large portion of your per house budget average. Nationwide it is 28%. Would you take a 28% increase in the FD budget?

    ///What if I lived in a town with an ISO of 10? sure, my rates would be a lot higher, but that wasn't the original question. ///

    The origninal question and I quote: ďWhat can a family who owns a single family home in your dist do with the extra savings, and . But what would the savings for a single family home to go from an ISO 3 to a ISO 1, vs the cost for the department to reach that ISO 1 level.ď

    See the charts again, That would be $161 a year. Factor in the population of the fire district and the rating period, that frees up a lousy 35 million dollars, hmm letís see what could you buy? AND WHY WOULDNĒT WE TRY FOR THE SAVINGS?

    ///It is my understanding that the cost to go from a 3 to a 1 is not cost effective for a mostly residental area.//

    Yeah 35 million isnít worth picking up at a cost of 1.6 million dollars. Course when you add the commercial, crop and renters savings in it is bare $100 million.


    //Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it. //

    Scott and I gave you plenty of proof which you verified with youíre own rates.

  23. #48
    Inferno
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    I believe that the fire truck industry will only go as fast as the commercial truck industry. In almost all cases, I think that technology will not (and is not) being delveloped with the fire fighting solely in mind. I think that most technology will be suited to be applied to fire fighting. Sure there are increasing tip loads and better communications equipment, but that is just building on current technology to make it better. Do you think that infered imagery is new stuff? The military has used this for many, many years. And how about traction control systems on our apparatus? High-end car makers have been using this technology for quite a while too! So whenever something new comes out in the fire fighting service, just look at other industries and I bet that you will find it in another application that has nothing to do with fighting fire!

    ------------------
    When In Doubt, Blitz It Out!

  24. #49
    ADSN/WFLD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS I'm glad that in NV the insurance industry treats you so fair. I'm also happy that you could save your 200,000 residents some money.

    You sound like your proud of your ISO 1, and you should be. Many departments with Full Time firefighters, responce times less than 5 minutes, good water supplies, professional dispach centers, and quality staffed equipment, aren't able to play the numbers game like you all do in northern NV.

    I guess the rest of us will cower in the shadows and pray that we aren't called upon to do our job.

    You had better watch out when the Millions of residents in our area find out how wonderful it is in your area, and how we have all been screwed by our insurance agents here. It is likely that we will all drop everything and move to Fallon.

    Then perhaps you can show us all your tanker with the Squirt on top.

    [This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited September 18, 2000).]

  25. #50
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post



    // I'm glad that in NV the insurance industry treats you so fair. /

    They donít that is why we and every other state legislature has a department of insurance.

    We have 30,000 nt 200,000 residents


    //Many departments with Full Time firefighters, responce times less than 5 minutes, good water supplies, professional dispach centers, and quality staffed equipment, //

    Bull! Hey they donít have good water supplies, good dispatch and good staffing with a Class 4 or Class 5. They only scored 40 to 50% on the test, which means Ĺ on water, Ĺ of staffing, Ĺ of communications. This ISO thing canít be too tough more than 1 volunteer department has scored a Class 1.

    // aren't able to play the numbers game like you//

    Yeah itís a game, must be if you canít get a good grade. Either you do or donít have the needed water to fight the fires in your district. That is 35% of the grade. Either you do or donít test your hydrants per the national standards and have compliant types. That 5% of the grade.

    If your water system is better than your fire department you know you have a six shooter but the fd only has the ability to move 4 bullets you shouldnít get credit for what you canít do should you? That is 10% of the grade. Heck right there youíve got a Class 5.

    Either dispatch can answer the 911 calls, you know say hello in 30 seconds and never more than 60 seconds or it canít. The standard is so easy that the dispatch can take as much time as she likes to collect the data but once it is all collected she must hit the tones within 1 minute. Either your phone book lists your phone numbers or it doesnít. Your dispatch does or doesnít have a back up generator and circuits or it doesnít. You either have or donít have a way to reach your people ie pagers per NFPA stds. You either do or donít have enough phone lines to answer your call volume. There is another 10%. Gee there is a Class 4 and weíve not even talked fire department.

    Your fire department needs to match your fire problem, not someone elses, yours. The fire flows are based upon 90 years of fire analysis. Either your pumpers carry 75% of the NFPA equipment list and your ladder/service companies 50% or they donít. Either you conduct pump and hose tests or you donít. Shouldnít you have a reasonable number of reserve apparatus just in case something is out of service? There is another 22%.

    Shouldnít your stations be within the clinical death limits of a human being? Shouldnít you have the apparatus in each station to meet the needs of the district? 4% more.

    Should we or shouldnít we meet the staffing standards that say how many firefighters are needed per company to operate at 100% efficiency? Add 15 or more percent.

    It is probably a good idea to have facilities to train, to train and prefire plan. Another 9%

    Which part of the above is the GAME? We take this stuff seriously where I live. What part are you having so much trouble with?

    Why are you scoring 60% and only 10% outside of your hydrant district? Which 40 to 90% isít important to you?

    Let me quote from the Fire Chiefs Handbook for you:

    ď...until something else comes along which allows a fire department to evaluate how good a job it is doing compared to like fire departments ...the ISOô classification is the only means available...Ē

    //I guess the rest of us will cower in the shadows and pray that we aren't called upon to do our job. //

    That is certainly one approach. Iíd rather stand on my own two feet.

    //Then perhaps you can show us all your tanker with the Squirt on top.//

    Sorry, we donít have any squirts. Tours are available 24 hours a day, on the web page or even on scene.

    Oh your crack about Nevada, Iíve helped departments in a number of states and their ISO works just like yours. They are all the same.

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