LHS Can I buy insurance from you?
I just finished talking to an agent with Farmers Insurance, and he told me that their is NO savings on a single family home if your town has an ISO of 1. As a matter of fact you will pay the same if your town has a rating of 4 or a rating of 1.
Also I would consider moving, you said that the "average home in my community saves $510 every single year." Well full coverage on a home that is insured for $140,000 costs $322.00 per year. Does that mean that the insurance co will pay me $188.00 a year to cover my house?
As for your other comments, they aren't worth responding to. As usuall you missed the point and now are taking everything personal.
Stay Safe and buy smart
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09-14-2000, 04:14 PM #41ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
09-14-2000, 05:23 PM #42S. CookFirehouse.com Guest
ADSN/WFLD, 1 - 3part question, 1 comment
1. What class is that house insured at now? What would the rate be if it was a class 10? How much is the difference?
2. If Farmers won't break at 4 to 3, somebody else will. Two options for the homeowner in this case: shop around or keep paying higher rates.
BTW it was a Farmers rep that called the station yesterday.
09-14-2000, 06:32 PM #43ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
The town I live in is an ISO class 4, The agent stated that the rates wouldn't get any lower. To Farmers, and probably everyone else in this area (they all play by the same rule book) a lower ISO doesn't mean anything. I did do some shopping prior to getting Farmers and everyone is basically the same. ($20 oneway or the other doesn't make a difference to me).
What if I lived in a town with an ISO of 10? sure, my rates would be a lot higher, but that wasn't the original question.
When you look at ISO and the entire rating system, from a 5 to 4 or 3 to 2, or wh
09-16-2000, 11:16 PM #44ThomasFirehouse.com Guest
I think that the ability to "make money off the tax payers racket" is what is eating at some people.
Think about it...we pay taxes...and for what?
I know that evryone is entitled to make a profit but...when is the taxpayer supposed to feel safe...that they have gotten a "bang for their buck"?
If ISO or NFPA says this truck needs to meet this requirement, then why don't they?
Yes the rules change, typically for the better.
Yes each community has different needs.. this being true then why have a standard such as ISO/NFPA.
If the manufacturer's are not held to these, then really what good do they due to the taxpayer? We end up giving a false sense of security to the taxpayer because they trust us. Yet they do not realize that we have to send inspectors, consultants, etc to make sure the OEM is giving us what we pay for!
have you ever purchased a new car and dropped the gas tank to make sure it is properly grounded?
If you have good for you, personally I assume that the car manufacturer has followed the NEC for my protection.
Have you ever heard of MMS?
You should think a minute that there are several organization's that are HELD to various standards!!! yet these organizations are still able to make a profit. Companies like Exxon, Texaco, Conoco can only conduct their refining business in a safe manner. The equipment they buy has to meet various codes/standards set up buy our government and our National Board of Insurance. If the equipment does not meet the standards, then the OEM is held liable and held accountable!
Here is another example...
The pharmacy companies. Their product has to meet the FDA approval before it is allowed access to the public. Why? DAH..to protect the taxpayer! This product is tested and held to certain standards. What happens if a drug does not meet these? I bet you can't get it!
So, why not hold the fire apparatus manufacturer's to the standards in place? Why are we given the ability to purchase the inadequate protection for our community? Are home builders allowed to build a house without a roof?
You seem happy. Great! I know you did not "catch" everything. What did you miss? I don't know, but if you felt like you had to go and inspect an item you spec'd, then why buy it from that vendor?
Just my views...
be safe and remember #1!!!!
09-17-2000, 06:59 PM #45BuckFirehouse.com Guest
///So, why not hold the fire apparatus manufacturer's to the standards in place? Why are we given the ability to purchase the inadequate protection for our community? Are home builders allowed to build a house without a roof?///
If you want a house built without a roof all you have to do is spec it that way.
///You seem happy. Great! I know you did not "catch" everything. What did you miss? I don't know, but if you felt like you had to go and inspect an item you spec'd, then why buy it from that vendor?///
Have you ever bought a house? Did you "CATCH" every thing wrong with it before you bought it? Hired an inspector, huh? Did he catch everything? Did you call a sales agent and tell them you want a house and what you wanted, color, layout, brick,sq. footage,ETC,ETC. And the arent said yes I got one just like you want. Did you say I'll take it sight unseen? How about a custom home?
Get a set of blue prints and all the specs done and tell the home builder to build it. Would you go check it out several times as they are building it? and if you did why would you buy from that vendor, you must not trust them?
Yes I have to say the tankers blew me away. They performed better than I could believe.
I not trying to pick on you but your math is a little wrong. 18000X$24 =$432,000.
10 years = $4,320,000
///The best thing for this countries fire apparatus design, would be to mandate the standards, such as military vehicles, and produce common models for municipalities to purchase. Such a program would eliminate
the partial bidding process and extravagant showpieces, thereby truly saving the taxpayers money. ///
While we are at it might as well get everybody the same uniforms and build all the stations the same and have just one great big book of SOP's and hell, lets just let the federal goverment run the fire dept. Also lets add EMS to it.
I can see it now ARMY, AIR FORCE, NAVY, MARINES, COAST GUARD, FIRE/RESCUE, EMS.
Might as well be a Communist counrty.
What a great idea?
09-17-2000, 07:17 PM #46S. CookFirehouse.com Guest
"I not trying to pick on you but your math is a little wrong. 18000X$24 =$432,000.
10 years = $4,320,000"
Sure is, must have fat-fingered a key. It's still more than our annual county FD budget though (~$300K).
[This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited September 17, 2000).]
09-17-2000, 08:13 PM #47LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
LHS Can I buy insurance from you? Also I would consider moving, you said that the "average home in my community saves $510 every single year." Well full coverage on a home that is insured for $140,000 costs $322.00 per year. ///
I know the chart I posted that your insurance man uses was too hard for you to understand, so Iíll do the math for you. $140,000 x factor for a Class 4 = $310.80. You said you pay $322. So your argent is ripping you off, Iím SORRY! If you were a Class 1 heíd owe you $113.40 a year or the value of the rating for yo is 1701.
Class 10 to a Class 4 savings is $362.20. Apparently, our homes cost more than yours.
You donít need to buy from me silly, youíre already paying what the chart says youíll pay ad saving what the charts say youíll saveÖBUT Iím SORRY I WAS OFF BY 3 percent.
////Does that mean that the insurance co will pay me $188.00 a year to cover my house?//
Think about the question, look at the chart, they already are handing you money back.
//. ($20 oneway or the other doesn't make a difference to me)
Letís do the math together.
$20 times 1000 homes times the insurance rating period equals 3 Million dollars
5000 homes 15 million dollars
10,000 homes 30 million dollars.
Why when you represent the fire service wouldnít this matter to you?
Take your FD budget divide it by the number of homes, I bet the $20 is a large portion of your per house budget average. Nationwide it is 28%. Would you take a 28% increase in the FD budget?
///What if I lived in a town with an ISO of 10? sure, my rates would be a lot higher, but that wasn't the original question. ///
The origninal question and I quote: ďWhat can a family who owns a single family home in your dist do with the extra savings, and . But what would the savings for a single family home to go from an ISO 3 to a ISO 1, vs the cost for the department to reach that ISO 1 level.ď
See the charts again, That would be $161 a year. Factor in the population of the fire district and the rating period, that frees up a lousy 35 million dollars, hmm letís see what could you buy? AND WHY WOULDNĒT WE TRY FOR THE SAVINGS?
///It is my understanding that the cost to go from a 3 to a 1 is not cost effective for a mostly residental area.//
Yeah 35 million isnít worth picking up at a cost of 1.6 million dollars. Course when you add the commercial, crop and renters savings in it is bare $100 million.
//Saving the taxpayer's money with lower insurance rates? That probably sounds good in theory, but prove it. //
Scott and I gave you plenty of proof which you verified with youíre own rates.
09-17-2000, 09:22 PM #48InfernoFirehouse.com Guest
I believe that the fire truck industry will only go as fast as the commercial truck industry. In almost all cases, I think that technology will not (and is not) being delveloped with the fire fighting solely in mind. I think that most technology will be suited to be applied to fire fighting. Sure there are increasing tip loads and better communications equipment, but that is just building on current technology to make it better. Do you think that infered imagery is new stuff? The military has used this for many, many years. And how about traction control systems on our apparatus? High-end car makers have been using this technology for quite a while too! So whenever something new comes out in the fire fighting service, just look at other industries and I bet that you will find it in another application that has nothing to do with fighting fire!
When In Doubt, Blitz It Out!
09-18-2000, 08:39 PM #49ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
LHS I'm glad that in NV the insurance industry treats you so fair. I'm also happy that you could save your 200,000 residents some money.
You sound like your proud of your ISO 1, and you should be. Many departments with Full Time firefighters, responce times less than 5 minutes, good water supplies, professional dispach centers, and quality staffed equipment, aren't able to play the numbers game like you all do in northern NV.
I guess the rest of us will cower in the shadows and pray that we aren't called upon to do our job.
You had better watch out when the Millions of residents in our area find out how wonderful it is in your area, and how we have all been screwed by our insurance agents here. It is likely that we will all drop everything and move to Fallon.
Then perhaps you can show us all your tanker with the Squirt on top.
[This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited September 18, 2000).]
09-19-2000, 01:05 AM #50LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
// I'm glad that in NV the insurance industry treats you so fair. /
They donít that is why we and every other state legislature has a department of insurance.
We have 30,000 nt 200,000 residents
//Many departments with Full Time firefighters, responce times less than 5 minutes, good water supplies, professional dispach centers, and quality staffed equipment, //
Bull! Hey they donít have good water supplies, good dispatch and good staffing with a Class 4 or Class 5. They only scored 40 to 50% on the test, which means Ĺ on water, Ĺ of staffing, Ĺ of communications. This ISO thing canít be too tough more than 1 volunteer department has scored a Class 1.
// aren't able to play the numbers game like you//
Yeah itís a game, must be if you canít get a good grade. Either you do or donít have the needed water to fight the fires in your district. That is 35% of the grade. Either you do or donít test your hydrants per the national standards and have compliant types. That 5% of the grade.
If your water system is better than your fire department you know you have a six shooter but the fd only has the ability to move 4 bullets you shouldnít get credit for what you canít do should you? That is 10% of the grade. Heck right there youíve got a Class 5.
Either dispatch can answer the 911 calls, you know say hello in 30 seconds and never more than 60 seconds or it canít. The standard is so easy that the dispatch can take as much time as she likes to collect the data but once it is all collected she must hit the tones within 1 minute. Either your phone book lists your phone numbers or it doesnít. Your dispatch does or doesnít have a back up generator and circuits or it doesnít. You either have or donít have a way to reach your people ie pagers per NFPA stds. You either do or donít have enough phone lines to answer your call volume. There is another 10%. Gee there is a Class 4 and weíve not even talked fire department.
Your fire department needs to match your fire problem, not someone elses, yours. The fire flows are based upon 90 years of fire analysis. Either your pumpers carry 75% of the NFPA equipment list and your ladder/service companies 50% or they donít. Either you conduct pump and hose tests or you donít. Shouldnít you have a reasonable number of reserve apparatus just in case something is out of service? There is another 22%.
Shouldnít your stations be within the clinical death limits of a human being? Shouldnít you have the apparatus in each station to meet the needs of the district? 4% more.
Should we or shouldnít we meet the staffing standards that say how many firefighters are needed per company to operate at 100% efficiency? Add 15 or more percent.
It is probably a good idea to have facilities to train, to train and prefire plan. Another 9%
Which part of the above is the GAME? We take this stuff seriously where I live. What part are you having so much trouble with?
Why are you scoring 60% and only 10% outside of your hydrant district? Which 40 to 90% isít important to you?
Let me quote from the Fire Chiefs Handbook for you:
ď...until something else comes along which allows a fire department to evaluate how good a job it is doing compared to like fire departments ...the ISOô classification is the only means available...Ē
//I guess the rest of us will cower in the shadows and pray that we aren't called upon to do our job. //
That is certainly one approach. Iíd rather stand on my own two feet.
//Then perhaps you can show us all your tanker with the Squirt on top.//
Sorry, we donít have any squirts. Tours are available 24 hours a day, on the web page or even on scene.
Oh your crack about Nevada, Iíve helped departments in a number of states and their ISO works just like yours. They are all the same.
09-20-2000, 12:42 PM #51ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
I am beginig to see the entire picture now. Based on your numbers in an earlier post,
"That would be $161 a year. Factor in the population of the fire district and the rating period, that frees up a lousy 35 million dollars,"
your district should have 217,391 residents.
(35 million divided by $161.00)
I also just finished looking at some of the Fallon/Churchill FD website, www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/index.html, and it would appear that not all of your district has an ISO class one.
Larry, just how many square miles, and residents are covered under your ISO 1? I know I would like to know. What precentage of you district are you talking about?
And for your "truck" lets let the viewers of the forum decide. Is this a truck, or a tanker with a squirt on top?
I guess it doesn't make muck of a difference what I think it is,you got the ISO people to believe it's a truck.
As for some of the other points you made, you provided us with a long list of items that wil get you to that class 1. So your telling us that Departments like, LA city, FDNY, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Phoenix, all pale in comparison to the Fallon/Churchill Volunteer Fire Department? You must be because they don't have an ISO 1 and you do, well sort of.
As for my crack about Navada, if word gets out that your so much better than the above departments, you just might have a population explosion to deal with.
ď...until something else comes along which allows a fire department to evaluate how good a job it is doing compared to like fire departments ...the ISOô classification is the only means available...Ē
Well something better HAS come along, its called Fire Department Accreditation. Our department as well as many other in my area are looking into the cost VS benefit of this award. So far it would appear to be a much more indepth study of a departments effectiveness.
[This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited September 20, 2000).]
09-20-2000, 03:32 PM #52LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//your district should have 217,391 residents.
nope, dollars divided by population times rating period.
//would appear that not all of your district has an ISO class one.
//just how many square miles, and residents are covered under your ISO 1?
Barely 98 square miles and 86% of the population.
//What precentage of you district are you talking about?
300 square miles and 11% is Class 3, the lowest ISO without a water system in the US.
31 square miles and 1% is Class 8
32 square miles is a Class 9 and 1%
And the balance 4539 square miles and 1% or 300 people have a class 10 scattered on ranches more than 10 miles from a fire station.
//And for your "truck" lets let the viewers of the forum decide. Is this a truck, or a tanker with a squirt on top?
A squirt (proper spelling Squrt) is made my Snorkle, ours is made by Pierce it is a Nova quintech boom made of steel with two flys not three and aluminum like the Snorkle device.
It is not a truck it is two trucks.
//you got the ISO people to believe it's a truck.
We didnít make anyone believe it was a truck. ISO definition and NFPAís is it is a quint and a tanker and an aerial. It met 100% of the ladder service requirements of the largest fire department in the US area wise.
///As for some of the other points you made, you provided us with a long list of items that wil get you to that class 1.
No that would get anyone to a Class 1.
LA city, ISO Class 2, used to be a Class 1 for over 50 years, they got rride of 100 engines and the staffing for them.
FDNY They are an ISO Class 4, sounds like lots of issues.
Chicago Class 2, stations staffing and apparatus.
Boston donít have a clue.
Philadelphia Class 3, same grade as our rural area without hydrants, lots of issues, there are Class 1í volunteers in PA.,
Phoenix Class 2,
//all pale in comparison toÖ
maybe in your mind.
We all take the same test, The above have FD, wateror communications issues, some more issues than others and our grades are public knowledge.
// you just might have a population explosion to deal with.
Nope, already have that with three Class 1 departments and two of the nations fastest growing cities.
///Well something better HAS come along, its called Fire Department Accreditation. Our department as well as many other in my area are looking into the cost VS benefit of this award.
Nice, you arenít accredited. ISO wonít accept it, or lower rates but if you feel youíll have a better department because you have a mission statement, an equality plan, and can all be with one with each other knock yourself out, but you know what? Water people, stations, trucks, training and notification will fight the fires, not feel good stuff..
///So far it would appear to be a much more indepth study of a departments effectiveness.
That really says a lot, where ISO is required every 30 months and accreditation is something you choose to do or not do. And only a handful of FDís have accreditation. All 88,000 communities have an ISO grade.
09-20-2000, 03:41 PM #53rickyFirehouse.com Guest
You're not going to win a "numbers game" with Larry. Give it up. He should be a politician.
09-20-2000, 03:55 PM #54rickyFirehouse.com Guest
BTW Larry, Did you "move" again?
09-24-2000, 12:14 PM #55grc063Firehouse.com Guest
IS THIS ABOUT THE LACK OF APPARATUS INNOVATION OR AN ISO FORUM??? Larry, you should contact someone about doing a reference manual on ISO rating. That would free up this forum.
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