11-08-2000, 05:09 PM #1462co4Firehouse.com Guest
quints-do you have one-i need details
my dept is in the process of spec'ing a quint and i wanted info from others who have one such as make, problems, likes & dislikes, etc. any info would be helpful
11-08-2000, 08:27 PM #2Mic13Firehouse.com Guest
You should contact St. Louis Fire Dept. They just took delivery of 34 Quints. They are nearly an "all-Quint dept." now. I think their's are Smeal's.
I believe a large dept. in the Carolina's started this trend with Pierce Quints.
Our Dept. bought a Quint with a 75' stick Ladder, single rear axle, full hose & pump, etc. It was used the second-out piece in the biggest station in the city, and it was the primary ladder truck for two other stations.
Problems I saw with it were:
small booster tank for an "all-purpose" apparatus,
"jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" problem (when used as the ladder truck for the other units, it wasn't optimized for that task).
The dept. just replaced this quint with a 100' tower-ladder, which also qualifies as a "quint," BUT it is much more able to be optimized to the ladder truck role. Weird thing is, the Chief has made it the first-out truck from that station now, and there's no Engine to back IT up! (Gotta wonder what the Chief was drinking that day...)
11-10-2000, 09:39 PM #3ffengFirehouse.com Guest
Take a look at the St. Louis Smeal quints. St. Louis has over a decades worth of experience with multiple quints in an urban environment. They have got to have the best feedback out there. It looks like they spent a lot of time evaluating existing trucks and fire experience. 400 gal water and 75' aerial do the trick. They have the ergonomic hose load so no chute issue for supply hose and I believe all supply and pre-connects come off the back and can be reached from the ground. No discharges at the pump panel. It looks like a safe design and St. Louis has been "testing" quints for over 10 years.
Richmond is the other city that went all quint a year or two ago. I've seen a lot of hype and advertising, but not much real working experience on them.
E-one has the HP75 Side-Stacker which puts the supply hose on top of the side compartments which also gets away from the "chute" issue.
Not sure I understand the fire service's love affair with big single axles.There are steerable tag axles out there that will let you more reasonably meet the trucks weight requirements and give you another axle worth of brakes.
I don't think that a quint is the answer to everything, but I do think it could be in many situations. The price of apparatus is really starting to get out of hand from my opinion. In the Northeast where there are a lot of small departments, the replacement of aerials particularly is often a major issue. They are having to look at quints, small towns and even some large communities cannot afford a new fleet of engines and aerials. And the 90's were one the most prosperous in the history of the country. When the economy cycles down, its only going to get tighter.
And the 100' tower as a quint as mentioned in the previous post. No way from my experience. One of the departments I was with a few years ago ran a 100' tower ladder outfitted as a quint. We never used it as a first in engine. We had 3 engines, why would we? And in suburban residential areas where 95+% of our fires were, you couldn't even get down a cul-de-sac or other narrow streets. My opinion, this trucks was useless. And then it was in the shop for pump related issues. Our only aerial - 1st priority should be for rescue - and the truck is out of service for pump issues because we got to have a pump on the truck for the "big one" which is going to end up a parking lot no matter if you have a pump on your tower ladder or not. Doesn't make sense to me.
11-10-2000, 11:44 PM #4Mic13Firehouse.com Guest
Thanks for the backup. It WAS Richmond I was thinking of that "pioneered" the 'all-quint concept.'
I agree with your remarks about the 100' Tower "Quint" that we have. I can't for the life of me figure out why the Chief has made it the "first-out," other than the fact it is new?!?
I agree totally with your tactical concepts as well: Trucks are for SAR & Ventilation; Engines are for pumping water...
However, just as you comment on prices going sky-high, causing more economically-minded departments to go to quints, I think staffing levels, as well, are causing this. When you only have 5 firefighters available at a station, do you run an engine with 3 men, and a truck with 2, or do you run one Quint with 5? Not only economically feasible for truck replacement costs, but also for dropping staffing. (And this applies to volunteers as well, with less volunteerism, and reduced availability during certain periods.)
I think this is a dangerous combination: a "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" truck, with, overall, reduced staffing. Not a good thing for communities and fire-fighters.
One last comment/question: Instead of using a quint alone as a company vehicle, what do any/all of you think of pairing a quint with a pumper and utilize it like a two-piece engine company, except with the "Engine" being a quint, and the "Wagon" being just a pumper/hose wagon?
I'm imagining that this concept would allow better water supply, better apparatus positioning (for the ladder aspect), more ground ladders (all supply hose would be carried on the Wagon), and less trade-off of the quint alone.
I know that this will not be as cheap as a quint alone, but it would still be cheaper than another engine company due to reduced equipment on the Wagon and reduced staffing...
[This message has been edited by Mic13 (edited 11-10-2000).]
11-11-2000, 02:24 PM #5CFD TruckLtFirehouse.com Guest
Just beware when specing a quint. It might pass DOT weight when it leaves the factory but after you put all your own equipment on ie. Hurst tools, Hose, Packs, etc.... It could be unsafely overweight !!. Not a good thing to mix Eng & Truck
11-11-2000, 05:37 PM #6Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
Richmond hardly "pioneered" the all-quint concept, since St. Louis went that way 10 years ago well before Richmond. But they certainly are among the first major departments to do so.
Regarding weights...those St. Louis quints are great trucks, but they come in at 52,000 pounds on a single rear axle chassis!!! Suppose when most of the responses are at relatively low speeds on city streets and you replace trucks every 10 years, that may not be too bad. For comparison, Connecticut requires overweight permits at 40,000# single rear axle and 54,000# dual rear axles.
11-11-2000, 11:27 PM #7STATION2Firehouse.com Guest
Not to start an argument, but... MIC13, Dalmation90 is correct in that St. Louis "pioneered" quints in one respect. That being the TOTAL quint concept. There were quints before St. Louis. And how easily Syracuse is forgotten. They have been running their Maxi and Mini concept (Mentioned as an idea for the future by you) for atleast as long as St. Louis has been in the quint business IF NOT LONGER. St. Louis started in the mid 1980's and had two types of quints when they did the change over to them. Pierce quints with, I believe, 50' sticks and LTI's with 75' sticks. They only kept 4 Hook and Ladder Co.'s in service because everything then had an aerial. Their second generation quints are the Smeals with 75' sticks. They did alot of planning and they appear to be firefighter friendly as much as possible. That says, atleast to me, they learned something with the 50' sticks to not replace them with more 50' sticks. Richmond, Va. has quints (And most everything else) by Pierce in service with each having a RIV or whatever they call it for medical calls and what not. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but, the RIV's are still Class A pumpers I believe. If thats the case then the "total" title doesn't seem to fit. As far as the original question goes do contact St. Louis about SOME of what they did and do with their quints. This would include likes and dislikes, specing issues, ideas they tried and discarded, etc. But contact a department that is like yours in apparatus makeup, call volume, manpower and response assignments to try and develop operational parameters for your quint. Unless your city is like St. Louis and/or your replacing everything with a quint, its not apples to apples operationally speaking. Just some thoughts. Be safe.
[This message has been edited by STATION2 (edited 11-11-2000).]
11-12-2000, 12:37 AM #8Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
Actually just remembered there's a regular poster on these boards from Richmond, Quint1medic, who would know about the RIVs but my recollection is the same as Station2's on them.
Syracuse actually started the mini/maxi concept in the mid 70s running a small mini-pumper to most incidents, backed up by the full sized engine. They did a lot of neat things, including radio controlled hydrant valves. My understanding they still run a similiar system, but with the full sized pumpers emphasized more.
11-12-2000, 01:46 AM #9Mic13Firehouse.com Guest
Dalmation90 and Station2:
NO WAY I'm going to take offense or get mad!! I'm here to learn! (and you guys are educating me...)
On the Richmond vs. St. Louis topic: I had forgotten the time relationship between the two, and I stand corrected. (Embarassed, too, since St. Louis is only 100 miles away, and I should've known they've run the "All-Quint Concept" longer.) Interestingly, the Dept. in my home town (where my Dad was a Firefighter) bought an A-LF Quint built along the lines of a "City Service Aerial" on a Series 70 cab/chassis back in 1950!!!
As to Syracuse: Thanks for the info! I was unaware that they were running this concept... After reading your brief description, though, it sounds to me like they are running a Class A (Mini) as an initial response, backed up by an Engine(?) (Maxi). Or, do I mis-understand?
I'm specifically thinking of the Quint running as the first piece of a two-piece company. This way, the truck with the ladder, crosslays, and all basic fire attack, forcible entry, SAR, and Ventilation equipment (and most of the company's crew) normally carried on both an engine and a (ladder) truck, except for the supply hose, would be at the scene of the fire. The "Wagon" would carry supply hose and a pump to do, for example, a reverse lay from the quint to the water supply, thereby getting it away from the scene for better positioning of the aerial, and follow-up companies set up the same way. (Those company's aerial on the quint would able to "spot" closer without the first company's engine in the way.)
Just a thought... Since, as a service, it is implied that we will be going more and more towards quints, I think we should kick around ideas to make them safer and more effective. (In my [or Syracuse's, if it's the same] idea above, the quint would be able to be lighter due to no supply hose, and the entire set-up would be more effective/efficient, since several quint-disadvantages are mitigated by carrying the extra equipment on the Wagon [small water tank, short lengths of supply hose, lack of ground ladders, etc.].)
Am I all wet?
11-12-2000, 12:18 PM #10Mic13Firehouse.com Guest
Well, I'm answering my own last question here, I guess. Went to the Syracuse, NY F.D. website and looked up the 1996 Annual Report to see that they have what is called an "ATAC Company". The info is at this link: http://www.syracuse.ny.us/syrmayor/S.../96ANNUAL.html
11-21-2000, 10:33 PM #11Rick1403Firehouse.com Guest
We placed a Smeal 75' quint into service 7/97. The chassis is a Freightliner FL112, Cummins M11 400HP engine, Allision 4060P transmission. We have a Waterous CSU 2000GPM pump. Great combination, the truck will run all day and not get over 1600RPM. We had a Klam driveline retarder installed after the factory, bad grease or wrong u joint parts, threw the driveline out at 1400 miles and put a hole in the pump. We had Smeal replace the pump, they did a great job, and we now have driveline cages installed. We ordered the truck with all the options we wanted and could afford. I should be able to get the spec's on disk if you want them.
12-08-2000, 11:26 AM #12mike021Firehouse.com Guest
The station I run at has a 92 Pierce 105 Quint. We bought a quint to replace the pumper and ladder we sold to buy the truck. it is out first piece out on all building fires, mutual aid for surrounding companies because of it's functionability. During the day there is a manpower issue where the truck helps because we can funtion as a ladder and pumper which has happened a few times. It is a tandem axle and have few problems getting around. Like anything it's the driver. We have some driver's that can put it into spots that are quite a surprise to most. Unfortunatly we bough it as a 6 man cab and it has the engine in the back seats which sucks but hey we couldn't afford what we wanted then. We are now in the middle of buying a engine from Pierce that will be no doubt the biggest and most functional in the whole area. Any other questions or anything e-mail me.
This is your brain... Pierce
This is your Brain on drugs..... E-One
12-08-2000, 04:01 PM #13TCFD12Firehouse.com Guest
1999 Sutphen 95' platform, 2000 GPM pump, 400 gal. water, 1000' 5", 8-man cab, 12.5 Kw generator.
462CO4, you are only about 20 minutes from where I am, if you would like to check out our truck let me know.
Or look here http://www.tcfd.com/apparatus/104.html
I know it seems too big, but you would be suprised as to how well it fits to our department and the types of responses we make. Remember that you need to be considerate of your dept's needs and type of responses you will be making.
12-09-2000, 07:48 PM #14fireman_387Firehouse.com Guest
The quint concept has lots of good and bad attributes. First off you need to ask yourself is will the truck be used as a first out, if so then booster tank capacity needs to be(in my opinion) the strongest concern. There is a town near me that just put in a 75' quint (different brand than ours) with a 350 gallon tank. Kinda hard to be first in on a structure fire and do much good when you have to wait for a line. 500 gallon loads need to be a minimum.
Another issues to look at is wheelbase. My department is using a quint as a first out in areas that are VeRy difficult to maneuver. An average pumper has @ a 185" wheelbase, our quint has a 210". Have to drive it kinda like a greyhound bus on steroids.
Overall weight needs to be addressed also. IF your guys are used to driving a 36,000lb pumper the will have to adapt to a 51,000 lb (an average) quint.
Overall I would say the good of having the ability of having everything with you on an initial call equals the fact of the downside of bigger, longer, heavier trucks.
12-30-2000, 01:36 AM #1586RescuetechFirehouse.com Guest
St Louis has taken delivery of Smeal 75" quints. So far, they love them. Philly has tried the idea with not much success. (Engine 16) My former department purchased a 1997 Startan 7 person cab LTI 75' 1500 gpm, 440 gallon tank. One of the biggest problems someone related to is that, you are combining two pieces of apparatus. If this is you goal, good. If not, think about it. An engine, and truck co. responsibilities are different and require a different set up. We found out that 75' is just enough now, but latter, who knows. This truck nees to last 20-25 years. The short wheelbase (shorter compared to a 100 tandem) is good for tight cornering. But in a small borough or city, it still may be too much for an everyday pumper. As for DOT weight, purchase all the equipment you are planning to put on the truck, and have them install it and then weigh it. Again, it all depends what your intention for the apparatus is. Take your time and don't rush it. Be safe.
12-31-2000, 12:02 PM #16JohnMFirehouse.com Guest
We purchased a Pierce 100' platform with pump,hose, etc in 1993. I like the truck, and it has been reliable. However, if I could turn the clock back, and could do the whole thing over again, I would get not get the pump, tank, and hose this time. Yes it can do most engine functions, but not as well as an engine. I would hate to have to reload the 5" supply line on a freqent basis. The water tank size is small also. When we flow the ladder pipe, we have used the pump, but we could have used another engine just as easily. In our department we use this rig as a truck company, and now I would perfer the extra compartment space instead of the pump. The hose bed would also be helpful for additional storage. I know each department works a little bit different, but for us, a "pure" aerial truck would have been better. The bottom line for me is that the pump,tank, and hose end up taking away from some of the truck company functions of the rig. Plus you end up with a very heavy truck! Good luck!
01-01-2001, 08:09 PM #17FireOneFirehouse.com Guest
What ever you do, do not let the salesmen spec your truck. We have recently ordered a E-one sidestacker 75HD quint. When we started our Pierce salesman told us no other apparatus companies offered a 500 gallon booster tank or different main hose bed layouts. When we pointed out the other companies that do offer these items, the Pierce quality was then brought up.
There are many opinions and designs offered. Do your self a favor. Decide what you want and then go to the factories and look at what they are building. Compare the trucks, then write your spec and send it out for bid. Do not let your salesman write your spec.
One question we had to answer is, how is this quint going to be used. Now that its ordered, we are writing and developing guidelines for its operations and training. Once its ordered the fun just starts.
Good Luck in your decision.
01-02-2001, 07:49 AM #18CaptCraigFirehouse.com Guest
One of the best ways to see what's new and what other departments are doing is to go to the FDIC in Indianapolis. I can't think of anywhere else on the east side of the country where you'll see more apparatus. Sure you get to talk with sales people but you also get to talk with the people who are getting the truck. (They're the ones standing around it drooling!!) Alot of planning goes into specing a quint to make it a usable piece of equipment for years to come. Take pictures, take notes, ask questions. Good Luck! Now I must go and make sure I have my reservation in for the conference!!
01-02-2001, 09:31 PM #19FireGuyNeilFirehouse.com Guest
Both the station where I work and the station I volunteer with are both running Quints. Just to help all the quint history guys the Navy/Marines fire service bought a whole fleet of quints under a contract from Pierce which started around 1984. They liked this operation and they kept ordering more rigs well into the 90's. Very few of their installations actually run 100' Aerials/Trucks. St. Louis is the first large city to go to all(total) quints. Syracuse did buy some amazing quints back in the earily eighties(which were awsome and way before their time). They still operate both large and small quints today. At my paid department which is an Army Installation we run our 85' Ladder as a Quint on post and as a Truck off post for mutual aid. It is what I would consider a Quint more so than a Truck. We just recently got it back from being totally re-manufactured. It was spec'd before I transfered here and some things were done right and some weren't. Just goes to show you that some Fire Chief's don't know everything. In addition the volunteer department I run with bought a new E-One 75' Quint in 1998. We have a paid driver on duty 24-7 and the rest of the dept. is volunteer. I can say that there are only a few minor things we would change on this truck if we could. We run this piece first due on all the boxes in our district/area. It or our engine runs on some of the calls with the departments to our west. (Depending on the call) We run it mutual aid to some other departments further (west)away which are in more rural areas. On some of these we are the closes Truck company and on some we aren't. One reason for this is the size of our rig. We can access alot of places other larger rigs can't. The city borders our district to the east and we run second due truck in the west end of the city. They also special call us when others rigs can't get into the alleys to position in the rear. If you would like more info or specs on either of these quints please feel free to contact me and I will help in any way I can. Be safe. Fireguyneil.
01-11-2001, 10:01 AM #20rfd241Firehouse.com Guest
I still don't really understand the purpose of a quint. It's a half-a** pump and a half-a** ladder. I guess if you have tremendous staffing problems and you would be on scene for like 10 minutes by yourself its good, but other than that there aren't too many "good" things about them. Granted they can do both functions, but not as good as a plain pumper or a truck.
01-11-2001, 10:51 AM #21LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Half axxed pumper and a half axxed ladder? You tell me.
We've been using quints for 6 years first out on all fires without a hitch. We don't have any staffing issues. We average 56 ff's per structure fire and crews of 10 per rig are common.
Quint as a Pumper: We carry more water (2000 gallons), larger pump (2300 gpm pump and roll), more 5" inch hose (2600'), more preconnects (15 with 3600 feet of line), more master streams (5), More foam (4 tanks 200 gallons plus), a pair of foam systems with higher capacity plus CAFS, all of these items is more than 99 1/2% of the pumpers in the US. We don't leave a hydrant man because we use an automatic hydrant valve. We can get anywhere witht the rig.
SO what is half axxed?
Quint as a Ladder: Our ladder is as strong as 85% of the ladders in the US. We can reach all of the roofs in the community. We have a 2000 gpm ladderpipe that is larger than 99% of the units in the US. We carry a lot more than the national standards for ground ladders 2-35', 2-24',2-14', 2-10' and the racks can hold 2-50's if ever needed. We have 10 air packs, 20 bottles, 12 salvage covers, 20kw generator 14,000 in floodlights, 6500 watts on the ladder, 1800 feet of cord, 8 cord lights, 5 saws, two blowers, oxy-torch, air bags, extrication tools, a pair of imagers, radio transmitting accountability system, mobile data terminal with all city pre-plans, all the other stuff carried on a ladder.
So tell me what is half axxed?
With a pump and the ability to lay dual 5 inch lines, we can produce an aerial master stream faster (35 seconds) than any std ladder and in most cases higher flows.
01-11-2001, 04:01 PM #22ChiefMcDFirehouse.com Guest
There goes isoslayer again bragging about his overequipped hoople mobile.
01-11-2001, 04:11 PM #23Hosekey21Firehouse.com Guest
Don't be bitter if you can't keep up with today's firefighting. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your equipment. We can all learn from those that have, and don't have, the equipment to perform our services for the taxpayers.
Just one man's view from the flames.
01-11-2001, 05:10 PM #24LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Scott McDermitt Alleged ChiefMcD
Over equipped eh? So how much total time have you spent fighting fire here? Do you know anything of the wide variety of risks we face? We cover the largest area of any department in the U.S. So what shouldn’t we carry? Ever gone a few hundred miles to fires? Ever worked with hundreds of other fire trucks? Can you work as well with a hydrant as without? Ok should we take off the ability to draft 60 feet vertically, or take the foam off, we've never had more than 7 plane crashes or two bulk plant fires in one year. Too much hose? We shouldn't shuttle ordraft with our ladders? Too many guys, huh there is a change.
How many times have you gone out on a fire to return two or three days or even a week later? How often on the way back from a call do you face two or three totally different events? Should we wait for someone else to bring something? So would you like to compare ISO grades, staffing (day or night), fatality rates, fire loss, smallest budget per capita, etc.
I see you are afraid to post your fire departments name...assuming tyou aren't a buff...what are you hiding from? Don’t you have anything to be proud of??
Take a few paragraphs and explain yourself, if you can.
01-12-2001, 09:25 AM #25ChiefMcDFirehouse.com Guest
When I first saw your post I was taken back but when i went to isoslayer's site and saw what you mean. I agree. It was nice to have a chuckle in the AM. If anyone doesn't understand.........just go to www.isoslayer.com
[This message has been edited by ChiefMcD (edited 01-12-2001).]
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