Thread: quints in rural settings
01-07-2001, 04:56 AM #1dtfd262Firehouse.com Guest
quints in rural settings
Our dept. is currently looking into buying an additional apparatus. There is some discussion as to which type of apparatus to purchase (traditional engine or quint). We protect a mainly rural area of approx. 6000 residential homes. We also have a mobile home park with approx. 2000 recreational trailers, 3 schools (all 2+ stories), several greenhouses, a large church, and a large self storage center. Plans have also been approved for a large strip mall shopping center (grocery store and 12-15 other stores), a multi story professional plaza, and a county library. There is also a study being conducted by a local business man in reference to erecting a nursing home in the future. All new construction that has been approved (except library) and the schools all have water sources located on their properties (dry hydrants). The shopping center has a dry standpipe system from the dry hydrant to two hydrants located at either end of the center. We currently run a 1250gpm/500 tank engine, 400gpm/2000 tank tanker, and heavy rescue as first due to structural fires. Our closest ladder co. is a 55 ft. telesquirt located 8 miles away. I feel that a quint (65-75 ft. 1250gpm/500 tank) would benefit the dept. more than a traditional engine. The primary use for the quint would be as the first due engine at structural fires and then ladder ops as needed. Currently the heavy rescue crew preforms ladder ops with equipment off that truck and the engine. This would not change except that the crew use quint instead of the engine (which will would be doing supply). In areas where water supply is not available we rely on tanker shuttles and while most of our roads can support two trucks passing side by side our tanker shuttle is usually set up prior to the arrival of the mutual aid ladder thus making it impossible to get the ladder into the scene close enough to be effective. I'm looking for any feedback as why this option would work or not work thank you in advance
01-07-2001, 04:26 PM #2LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
We protect a similar area that you describe.
We run 65 foot quints with 2000 gallon water tanks. They are CAF rigs to extend water tank ability. We live on long hose lays or shuttles for water supply. With some areas having water.
For more info: http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/
With 2600 feet of 5 inch hose, 10 inch side dumps for shuttling, a 15 foot squirrel tail hard suction line, 13 precconected lines(3600'), two each 10', 24', 14' 35' ladders, 10 SCBA, seating for 10, 200 gallons of foam, 5000 gallon drop tank, extrication equipment, full pump and roll, in the cab pump panel, thre remote control guns, one portable gun, in cab computer, a couple imagers, radio automatic pass locator system, and all the other stuff you'd expect on an engine or ladder.
In three minutes a crew of four using hydrants can support five master streams 150 feet apart.
01-07-2001, 10:20 PM #3MetalMedicFirehouse.com Guest
I would consider the quint just for the potential ISO rating support you might get from it. The biggest problem I have seen with operating an aeriel in a rural setting is keeping water to the master stream. If you are REAL good with tanker shuttle, it can be done, but you need to pay attention. On the other hand, while you do not have hydrants now, who is to say that during the 20 year life cycle of the apparatus that you may not develop areas with hydrants. If you can afford it... get it!
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
01-08-2001, 10:25 AM #4LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Is right on the ISO stuff. We're just a volunteer fire department but the quints helped us get the two lowest ISO grades ever given any fire department. A Class 1 in the city hydrant areas and a Class 3 in the areas without hydrants. We can shuttle 3500 gpm or more more importantly exceed all the fire flow needs in our district. So master stream support is not an issue here. Most fires are easliy taken care of off tank water by the quint.
01-08-2001, 12:45 PM #5Bob SnyderFirehouse.com Guest
Based on my experience, I'm a big fan of quints in rural settings. In fact, they probably make much more sense in rural settings than they do in urban settings. You probably have many of the same issues we do:
1. Access issues: tight or difficult lanes, odd building orientation, long setbacks, etc. With a quint, you can have everything you need up a long/tight lane, even if one rig is all you can get up that lane. With separate engine/ladder apparatus, you don't always have everything where you need it to be.
2. Manpower issues: If you're like us, you probably do well on average. However, there are probably times that can get a little dicey, especially in prime vacation season or in deer season. If you have a structure call when manpower is low, you can do a lot more, or at least have more options, with a quint and a crew than you can with either an engine or a ladder. The quint also eliminates the problem of picking which rig to take, hoping that your mutual aid companies (who may also be low on manpower at that moment) come through to plug the gap you leave after your choice is made.
3. Budgetary constraints...no explanation needed here about the basic issue, but consider that it'll cost you anywhere from $600K-$800K to put both a fully-loaded ladder service and a custom, class A pumper in your station...you can do a nicely-equipped quint for around $500K, more or less, depending on size and what you put on it.
What I would think about if I were you, though, is the size of quint you're talking about. If you're like us, and a rig is going to have to last you a good 30 years, you don't want to sell yourself short. Consider a 100' stick rather than a 65' or 75', especially with a 55' squirt so close by. You don't seem to have many big facilities to deal with yet, at least by the description you posted here. But, that doesn't mean that you won't (if I found the right place on Yahoo! maps, you're close to the north Jersey border...that probably means in-migration from the NY city area?).
Just some things to think about. Hope this helps.
01-09-2001, 12:09 PM #6FyredUpFirehouse.com Guest
As a member of a fire department that operates a quint let me echo the support for going with a 100' aerial device, whether a stick or a tower. Our quint has a 75' ladder and it causes access problems in areas with setbacks. Also, a 100' ladder allows you to be prepared for those taller structures sure to follow in the developement of your area.
Another piece of advice I would give is make the supply hose bed easy to access for laying hose and reloading hose. Ours is a true nightmare...
01-09-2001, 02:47 PM #7LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
As a member of a fire department that operates quints in a rural setting let me suggest if you are only sure the first rig will roll, then carry lots of water. That is why we pack 2000 gallons. If the tanker never gets there or gets there a bit late, you'll look really bab. Above all equip this thing wirth CAFS. Having helped in the purchase of 10 CAF's Quints, it is awesome.
Going with a 100' aerial device will cost yo the ability to a significant amount of water. Granbury Texas runs a 100 footer with a 750 tank, but that is about all yo'll be able to carry with a a big stick.
As far as hose beds. Granbury and all 10 CAF quints can lay hose at any speed up to 45 mph. Yes you can have a ladder, a 2000 tank and lay one or two 5" lines 1300 feet each or one 2600 feet making corners without any problem.
Another thought, if you have to raise the ladder to load the hose or use a chute, or open 5 doors and remove a ladder or split your bed into two 500 foot lays that cannot be connected, or if you end up with a three fly 24 foot ladder or some other odd ball ladder, don't buy the fire truck.
In small town USA we can probably get by nicely with a shorter ladder. You can always throw a ground ladder if you can't get close enough. If you follow a model building code setbacks will never be a problem.
A quint has to be a great pumper first, you shouldn't have to reduce anything off your pumper for your quint. If you do don't buy it. Once you have a great pumper that just happens to have an aerial device you win!
The average quint on the road is a demo, or a very slightlty modified factory stock unit that can't lay supply hose, has limited attack lines, very little foam ability, a rediculous ladder compliment, a reduced supply bed, no deck gun, a bitty water tank, minimal compartmentation, poor floodlighting and a small generator. In most cases it is almost overweight the day it arrives. Lust of the shinny paint more than anything else is why it is owned.
01-09-2001, 03:36 PM #8mike021Firehouse.com Guest
I would agree with the above statements. Quints do nothing but improve the quality of fire servicew delivered. I run with a 92 Pierce 105' Heavy duty truck and it's great. Reaches alot of places other's can't. Our dept was added into alot more mutual aid's with the truck when it came to town. If you have the money go with a big stick it never fails.
01-09-2001, 05:56 PM #9FireOneFirehouse.com Guest
We have justed ordered a HD 75 ft sidestacker quint from E-1. In researching this and our rual areas, our biggest concern was the 500 gallon water tank. All of our engines carry 750 - 1000 gallons each. We have come to rely on this for a quick knock down. After much discussion we felt with our four other engines and our five inch hose we could easily supply this truck.
The E-1 gave us everything we wanted on a wheel base of 220 inches. It make for a long truck, but a very manuverable one. We looked at a bigger tank and 100ft verses 75, but you have to have a truck that can get around.
Our district is very similar to yours, except the buildings you are talking about building, we already have. As soon as our new truck is in service the ISO audit will be requested.
My biggest advice is, think it out prior to ordering. Ask the salesmen to bring you a demo and drive it around your district. See what fits your needs.
01-09-2001, 11:56 PM #10LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//We have justed ordered a HD 75 ft sidestacker quint
I know a department who ordered 7 side stackers and will recieve them this month. They also were concerned about tank size and went with CAFS on each to buy time.
01-12-2001, 03:13 PM #11SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
LHS, I am curious what dollar amount was placed on your quint. Also, it seems to be a rather large truck for a 65' ladder. I am certainly not knocking your system, but I can say with certainty my community would not be able to use a truck that size. Granted, our quint is a 75' straight stick with a 1500/350 water supply. However it is 38' stem to stern with a turning radius that is the envy of the engine drivers. Another problem that still rears its head is approach angles. Our terrain is very hilly and we have already had to dump the water to get unstuck. This is after scraping and learning on the front end hooks. Again, just curious.
01-12-2001, 04:50 PM #12LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
///I am curious what dollar amount was placed on your quint.
$465,000 each fully equipped including 8 traffic light preemption systems.
// Also, it seems to be a rather large truck for a 65' ladder.
it is 38' 8" A standard 65' ladder is 33 feet. 14% difference.
//I am certainly not knocking your system, but I can say with certainty my community would not be able to use a truck that size.
That's what some of our people said. Do you have school buses, dump trucks, garbage trucks, cement trucks, heavy rescues, conventional ladders, wreckers, etc running your streets?
The nice thing about all this, it doesn't have to run in district nor was it designed for your district but it has run in a few hundred others in five states without problems. It could just be a driver issue, we require CDL's. It can easily be set up to out turn the 167 inch wheel base pumper of yours. It all depends what you want to do, doesn't it? In fact it could be made to out turn a Volkswagon rabbit.
//Granted, our quint is a 75' straight stick with a 1500/350 water supply. However it is 38' stem to stern with a turning radius that is the envy of the engine drivers.
Odds are, ours will turn with it. Based on similar LTI's in the area. Length is length and wheelbase on on a 75 is 210 to 220 and the overweight situation on a two axle rig means you've got 30 degree or less cramp angle. Our 47 degree plus walking beam suspension should mathematically be a tie. Add all steer and you'd lose by 30% add center steer you'd lose by 75%. It all depends what you design the rig to do. Certainly there isn't any difference in height, width, axle loading, etc.
There is a huge difference in firefighting ability between the two rigs though.
//Another problem that still rears its head is approach angles.
Not an issue here. Once again we don't have to work there, but we could easily address that like we did with our brush truck. 40 degrees enough?
//Our terrain is very hilly and we have already had to dump the water to get unstuck.
Our terrain goes from 3000 feet to 9900 feet, our hills are certainly longer and the number has to be 10's if not 100's of times more. We can go over a 6.9% grade at 65 mph. If we needed more we'd copy our 2500 gallon brush truck which can climb 60 degree slopes
//his is after scraping and learning on the front end hooks. Again, just curious.
We chose not to do it that way. We defined our turns, obstacles, angles of approach and departure, bridges, heights, etc. 50% of our calls are off the paved road.
Now let me return the favor and let's compare your apparatus in our situation. You carry 1700 galons less water. Won't work here. We'd never start an attack with only 350 gallons of water. There is no way your load of 4 inch hose can supply your pump to capacity unless you've got 350 psi hydrants. We carry 1800 feet of additional supply hose which is equal to 5200 feet of what you carry. You don't carry any long attack lines which would greatly slow down fire attacks and you have a very limited number of short lines.
As a general rule all our lines flow more water. You don't have a deck gun and our ladder pipe out flows yours two to one. Your pump is too small for our application. You can't pump and roll. We carry more fighters in air packs. Your aerial doesn't have remote controls to operate away from the vehicle. No traffic preemption system. No MDT or imager or electronic accountabilty system.
No compressed air foam or gel. You'd be in big trouble covering exposures on a wildland fire. Almost zero foam ability. You'd die using an indian can out here. We have fires the size of states. It is not set up to draft quickly. Can't shuttle water. No drop tank. We carry 6 more hand lights, three times the saws.
You have a very limited ladder compliment, non-existant salvage capability, limited pike poles and hooks, no extrication equipment, you have a little bitty generator and very few floods.
Your angle of departure is slightly worse than ours. Our outrigger spread is much narrower, faster deploying and we have a higher tip load. Small floods on the tip of your ladder. We've got 8 times the cord.
It appears one of our quints has much the same ability of all the appartus in your station, plus they carry a lot more water, ladders, extrication gear, foam, floodlighting, pump capacity and hose. Our first two rigs are equal to three stations of your apparatus. We can move more water in almost any possible operation. It appears you have a great need to shuttle and draft. You should carry more water and certainly CAFs. Your ISO rating proves it.
Overall, you have a lot of time consuming steps we could not live with. Ie. if it takes more than 15 seconds to get a draft, 1 minute to unload a rigs load of water, 50 seconds to deploy a 400 foot line, etc. Your area looks like ours our area is just a lot larger by several orders of magnatude. We've put out bulk storage fires like those in your area.
Overall our rigs are simplier to operate and easier to maintain, ie change a valve in 3 minutes without tools and without a mechanic. The cost of our rigs was very similar. It doesn't appear you have any room for future growth. I'm sure your rigs work fine there, ours do ok here, I hope we never change areas, both our conclusions on apparatus might change.
01-13-2001, 10:22 AM #13SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
Thanks for the reply LHS,
Im really surprised at the price of your units. Was that a good price or what? You must have had an awesome truck committee to get that deal. When we spec'ed a new quint it was more than that, without any of the stuff you mentioned. In no way was I saying your equip was wrong, just trying to show how different trucks work in different areas. And it is not a driver issue, we do have roads that are not accessable to dump trucks, school busses heavy rescues etc,as well as quints driven by professional drivers on demo runs.
As far as other equip not carried, we don't do extrication(seperate vol squad in town), we don't draft(how many times is the fire right next to a dry hydrant), nor do we shuttle water(there is a tanker task force for that issue), funding is definitely an issue, and considering the next closest ladder is 8-12 miles away, this truck fits our needs very well. Would we have liked to spec a 100' ladder, tag-axle with turn assist, a larger tank, CAFS, more ladders, more lights, more goodies all around? ABSOLUTELY! Could we afford the price of a truck with all this? ABSOULTELY NOT! We realize we are light in water, thus the mutual aid tankers arriving within a minute of us. Thanks again for the reply, I really do enjoy seeing how others operate.
01-13-2001, 12:34 PM #14LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//Im really surprised at the price of your units. Was that a good price or what?
// You must have had an awesome truck committee to get that deal.
Didn't use a committee only had 3 days to draw up specs.
///we don't draft(how many times is the fire right next to a dry hydrant),
NO one said anything about being right next to a dry hydrant. Can you draft from a dry hydrant 400 feet away? We can.
//nor do we shuttle water(there is a tanker task force for that issue),
So if you don't draft how do you get water out of the drop tank you carry and how do you get water from the tanker task force.
01-13-2001, 04:10 PM #15SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
Allow me to clarify: We don't draft with the quint. It is supplied by either our engine or our mutual aid. We couldn't justify using space for the suction when we have no desire to use the quint as a supply piece. Also, our first alarm brings three tankers for 12,000 g, 4 engines with 4,000, not including the 1,000 we carry. I know its not the optimal setup, but the budget is the deciding factor. How was your co able to upgrade its entire fleet to the pieces you have now? If you were to buy one piece now, would you change anything?
01-13-2001, 10:50 PM #16LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//How was your co able to upgrade its entire fleet to the pieces you have now?
Expalined to the Mayor how many hundreds of dollars we could save the average homeowner and business every year on fire insurance premiums on an investment of just $1.09 a month for four new fully equipped rigs, three stations, all new everything from SCBA to pagers, trunouts etc.
///If you were to buy one piece now, would you change anything?
More seats in the cab 12 or 14, bigger compressor and generator, more floodlights, super singles rear, more ground ladders. Other than that pretty happy.
01-13-2001, 11:48 PM #17MetalMedicFirehouse.com GuestOriginally posted by SFD-129-3:
Allow me to clarify: We don't draft with the quint. It is supplied by either our engine or our mutual aid. We couldn't justify using space for the suction when we have no desire to use the quint as a supply piece.
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
01-14-2001, 03:52 AM #18Resq14Firehouse.com Guest
Ah interesting. I was just commenting on this today.
I was wondering much the same thing... is hard suction a requirement for a quint? Our E-One Cyclone II 95' aerial platform just arrived. 2000gpm pump, 300gal tank, NFPA ladder complement, supply and attack lines, etc.
One thing I didn't see was hard suction (and which we never spec'd to include). Granted, the probability of us drafting with this monster is quite low. But what about those times when it might need to pump out of a porta-tank, or from the nearby ocean? People laughed when I suggested the addition of several lengths (it's not like we're short on space)of hard suction. Is it such a silly thing? She has a primer, so why not some straws through which she can draft?
01-14-2001, 11:17 AM #19LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
No requirement for hard suction from ISO.
01-14-2001, 02:01 PM #20MetalMedicFirehouse.com GuestOriginally posted by LHS*:
No requirement for hard suction from ISO.
There is another string going on this forum about NFPA being bogus... if ISO doesn't care if your pumper is able to draft water, they must be bogus too.
Our aeriel does not carry hard suction, but all of our engines certainly do. We do have some hard suction for the aeriel hanging on the wall in the station that we need when we do pump testing.
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
01-15-2001, 09:22 AM #21SFD-129-3Firehouse.com Guest
Thanks again, LHS, I wish we all had the amount of support from the community you have. I also never considered the ISO effect without suction on the quint. Im glad that was already answered. Our SOG's state the first piece in lays the line to be supplied by the second piece. The second piece is required to establish the water supply, either hydrant or tankers dumping into porta-tanks. We did this to minimize congestion at the immediate scene. Thanks again.
01-28-2001, 09:47 PM #22FireGuyNeilFirehouse.com Guest
I would think if you existing first out engine only has 500 gallons of water on board and then I assume this would be how much water you would want on your quint. Both my paid dept. and my volunteer dept. have quints. I previously worked at a dept. in New Jersey that also had a quint. I can say that if you have no Truck company service then a quint is definitely the way to go. The main concerns you seem to have is size/manuverability. I can also tell you this. To stay with a single rear axle most manufactures will build a 75' rear mount ladder with a 500 gallon tank. If you would want more water with a 75' ladder you will have to go with tandems. I have also seen this done with up to 1000 gallons of water. Another thing to keep in mind is your outrigger spread distance. In most rural places your spread might be to wide to set up on driveways or lanes when the ground may be soft. If you really want a true attack engine with some aerial capabilities check out a 65' Tele-Squirt. These are the aerials used on LHS's units. Several manufactures will use them. The are quick to set-up, easy to operate, and very reliable. I know you can get 600 gallons of water on a single rear with the right body. You can also go tandem but then you will have a size issue. The Tele-Squirt uses an A-frame outrigger system which (I think) only has a 12' spread distance. This works well in rural environments where you might be in a lane, driveway, or other limited space area. If 65' isn't enough E-One builds a 75' rear mount with an underslung style A-frame out rigger set-up, but this limits the tip load to 250 lbs when under 45 degrees. Again you will probably be limited to 500 gallons on a single rear axle. This is what my volunteer department currently uses. We run a lot of rural areas out in the county to our west. We also run 2nd due truck in the city which borders our area to the east. We have found that we can get our quint in most places that a engine will fit with the limitations being weight and length. You may also wanna read my post in the other quint info in forum. If you need any more info or want to check out any of these quints I have listed the web sites below. Take care all and be safe out there. FGN www.WYFD.com - West York Fire Department located in West York PA.
1999 E-One 75' Rear Mount Quint, Truck 1
Also do a search for Fort Monmouth Army Post located in New Jersey and look for pictures of Engine 3. 1997 Pierce 65' Telesquirt Quint
02-11-2001, 01:35 AM #23Van McCoy MPAFirehouse.com Guest
LHS...If you don't mind me asking...How many call's a year do these machines of yours make?
02-14-2001, 03:49 AM #24firemedic01Firehouse.com Guest
I know a dept getting rid of all of their pumpers and going to all quints. 400 gallon tanks all CAFS. They will have a 75 ft stick on each of them. I don't know if it is a good idea but what ever floats there boats
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