Thread: TELESQUIRTS? good or deadly
02-04-2001, 08:29 AM #1pvtcfd22Firehouse.com Guest
TELESQUIRTS? good or deadly
We are presently looking to replace a quint (100' stick) and our chief is pushing a telesquirt. My opinion is if we need an aerial device, then we need a real ladder. If we don't need a ladder, then we don't need an aerial device. there are two other ladders in town now, that didn't exist when we bought the quint on 1973. My concern is having to work off an add-on ladder to a squirt, and losing the compartment space to a torque box. We will be phasing out two trucks with the new one, and will need to have lots of room on the shortest wheel base possible. Any comments?
02-04-2001, 04:06 PM #2Engine 224Firehouse.com Guest
First of all your topic - it is not a question of good or deadly. Telesquirts are safe - they meet the same NFPA 1901 standards as every other aerial device. If anything is deadly, it is a 1975 aerial device which doesn't meet the uprated aerial standards. The majority of aerials built in 1975 did not.
Having said that, I can't see a Telesquirt replacing a 100 foot quint. First of all, the largest Telesquirt is 75 feet. Second the ladder on top of the boom gives a nice added capability but as the name implies, the Telesquirt is primarily designed for elevated stream operations. In fact it is very good at that - maybe the best. Look back over the last 25 years at how many times your quint was used as an aerial ladder and how many times it was used for elevated stream operations. If it was elevated streams most of the time maybe the Telesquirt is the answer. If not - stay with the quint aerial apparatus.
02-06-2001, 11:04 AM #3mike021Firehouse.com Guest
I don't know but it seems kind of silly to not buy another aerial. If it will replace 2 other trucks you should just go all out and buy a real nice Pierce 105' HD Aeriel. Just a thought hehe cya!! Seriously you should consider a ladder over a telesqurt.
02-10-2001, 12:31 PM #4pwc606Firehouse.com Guest
If you are replacing two vehicles with one I would look at what has to be placed on the vehicle. I don't believe you will get as much equipment on a Telesquirt that you would on a true truck or tower. Equipment and the job should be considered.
The other item to consider is what is the height of the tallest building in your response area and will a Telesquirt meet the needs of that building if it should burn or need a rescue performed on it in the future.
Which brings another topic for consideration. What are the future building plans for the area you live in. Is there a chance of considerable growth over the next several years that would demand the need for something other than a full truck company?
Now if I read this correctly you will be down sizing to only one truck in the near future, so why not purchase something that will be able to perform at the maximum level without having to worry about the age of the truck. All in all I believe in the truck company or tower company. The are designed for both elevated streams and to work off of. The tower is a little easier to work off in some cases than a truck and vice versa. Look at the NEED for your area and the WANTS of the department and come up with a plan. Good luck.
02-11-2001, 01:18 AM #5calpyroFirehouse.com Guest
I currently use a Tele-Squrt and offer the following:
1. The thickness of the boom and ladder 2-1/2' from ladder to the bottom of the boom causes firefighters to leap from the ladder to roofs. It is difficult to get off the Squrt without shock loading roofs. I have fell through one roof because of this. This 2-1/'2' distance makes even short parapets of 2' an impossible height to get back on the boom fast. The combined height of the boom and the parapet require a ground ladder to get back on. However it is impractical to ladder a 2' parapet with a 14' roof ladder. A standard aerial sits Much lower and is much safer to get on and off.
2. The thickness of the boom and ladder combined, make getting off at windows dangerous. At climbing angles, the bottom of boom contacts the window sill or wall and because of the 2-1/2' distance to the top of the ladder, the last rung of the ladder is 2' from the window. The last step from the ladder to the window has caused our firefighters to have many close calls. Additionally, if you are holding a tool and have the other hand on the handrail behind you, if requires the firefighters to leap into the window. In contrast a standard aerial buts right up to the window and is much safer.
3. Tele-Squrts only have 400 pound tip loading dry under 45 degrees. This is a problem when attempting rescue.
4. Tele-Squrts have 0 tip load while flowing water below 45 degrees. To avoid washing firefighters off adjoining roofs, a firefighter is necessary on the boom during aerial master stream operations. Tele-Squrts are incapable of doing this at some angles.
5. The torque box of a Tele-Squrt and outrigger design prevents ladder from being stored in the back of the vehicle. This is why you don't see many ladders on Squrts. If you need ground ladders look for a conventional truck that allows ladders to be stored inside the torque box.
6. Tele-Squrts cannot be short-jacked in tight situations.
7. Tele-Squrts outriggers are very short and have limited ability to level utilizing the outriggers on slopes. Standard trucks generally have much bigger outriggers which can handle steeper slopes
8. Tele-Squrts hand rail are very short which make them difficult to carry victims down safely. Disoriented victims often flail themselves about which require taller handrails for firefighter safety
Hope this helps.
[This message has been edited by calpyro (edited 02-11-2001).]
02-11-2001, 02:48 AM #6LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//A standard aerial sits Much lower and is much safer to get on and off.
Depends on the device many are worse than the squrt.
//3. Tele-Squrts only have 400 pound tip loading dry under 45 degrees.
800 lbs above 60 degrees, better than most aerials.
//4. Tele-Squrts have 0 tip load while flowing water below 45 degrees.
Same as many ladders, better than most pre-1995 ladders
//5. The torque box of a Tele-Squrt and outrigger design prevents ladder from being stored in the back of the vehicle. This is why you don't see many ladders on Squrts.
Overhead racksd or side loading will easily carry the nfpa load of ladders
//6. Tele-Squrts cannot be short-jacked in tight situations.
Why would you want to they have the shortest jack spread in the industry.
//Standard trucks generally have much bigger outriggers which can handle steeper slopes
But could lose load carrying ability in the process
//8. Tele-Squrts hand rail are very short which make them difficult to carry victims down safely. Disoriented victims often flail themselves about which require taller handrails for firefighter safety
Hope this helps.
Same as all ladder trucks today.
02-11-2001, 02:42 PM #7ALSfirefighterFirehouse.com Guest
I can understand the questions you are raising. You also make some valid points. I wouldn't skimp out on a squirt, you never know how your community will expand in the future. Better to have and not need, then need and not have. While I do like telesquirts and feel they have their place in the fire service. I also cannot see replacing a 100' aerial device with a telesquirt. While squirts meet the NFPA 1901 standards, I have always looked at them as a very valuable elevated master stream. Giving the ability to flow massive amounts of water, with a little more control than with a full aerial device. I can't speak as to what type of first due area, or other response responsibilities you have, but its easier to adapt a larger aerial device to deliver service, then its gonna be if you turn around and can't provide adequate protection with a telesquirt. The only thing I can base on my opinion is that you are attempting to replace one, so I'm guessing you needed one.
The above is my opinion only, they do not reflect those of any dept./agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.
02-11-2001, 10:27 PM #8ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
If you will be climbing the ladder on a regular basis then don't get a squrt. Calpyro made some good points about the squrt, my personal opinion is that a squrt is useless, unless you always participate in suround and drown operations.
02-13-2001, 11:59 AM #9tony pericFirehouse.com Guest
We own a 1978 Pierce with a 50' Telesquirt. It is a very good elevated stream and thats about it. I'd like to think that a ladder of this type would be a good compliment to a platform or a true ladder truck. We are getting ready to replace this truck with a new(used) tower.
02-13-2001, 07:56 PM #10LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Gee, "Worthless?" I wonder why they've sold over 1500 of them? I wonder if the Syracuse NY FF who was saved by one thinks they are "worthless"? Seems to me they are very capable, an excellent tool, expand capabilities, offer a suppliment to ladders and can act alone if used within their abilities. I just can imagine these "worthless" devices have been purchased by FDNY, LA, Ft Worth, St. Louis, Plano, Dade County, Syracuse, NY, and hundreds of others. Some FD's have entire fleets of them. Some deparments are buying them for the 5th generation of them. Sure a lot of Class 1's using them.
As a long time user, "wortless", Hardly. Better than a pumper, not as good as a real ladder truck, but can do so much more in a combination role than any full size ladder truck.
02-13-2001, 10:50 PM #11ffengFirehouse.com Guest
This sounds like a real apples and oranges comparison. Does your FD need a another 100' aerial ladder? If it does, then a telesquirt really isn't a true option. If it doesn't need to replace the 100'er, then what do you need? There have been some good comments on the issues with routine use of telesquirts for ladder work. Check out the St Louis story on their experience with the first generation of quints - telesquirts vs. aerial ladders. They said no to the squirts, went with 75' ladders on the quints with the new Smeals.
If you're looking at getting some elevated stream potential from a pumper, which I see as a positive, then a telesquirt is an option along with some others.
All comes down to what do you need.
02-14-2001, 02:45 AM #12LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 03-03-2001).]
02-17-2001, 08:16 PM #13ffengFirehouse.com Guest
From both what was reported in various articles on the St. Louis Smeals and from personal commmuncation with those responsible for the trucks specs, they went with the 75' ladders and not the telesquirts for almost exactly the #1 and #2 reasons that Calpyro stated from his experience.
You know, there's always pro's/con's with a lot of issues. Are there con's with the St. Louis quints, sure. But, if you're looking at quints and considering a telesquirt vs. a std. ladder, St. Louis has a lot of experience with both and there are certainly knowledgeable and upfront individuals there who will tell you their experience.
From everything I heard, both public and private, this wasn't just a low bid bs deal. St. Louis had some very specific issues/specs they wanted covered and Smeal delivered what St. Louis wanted at the most competitive price. If you're doing your specs and purchasing correctly, you should be buying low bid, that's the best way to ensure you're not wasting the tax payer's money and encouraging true competition among apparatus manufacturers.
02-17-2001, 11:08 PM #14calpyroFirehouse.com Guest
I gave your original post some thought and came up with some ideas of how to battle the chief against a Tele-Squrt. The first and foremost reason to not get a Tele-Squrt is safety. Despite the arguments of the Fallon NV fellow, Squrts have drawbacks that can be tied to safety:
1. Poor tip load, 400 lb. dry at low angles. 0 lb. wet at low angles. Many manufactures provide tip loads of 500-1500 lb. wet at all angles.
2. Boom and ladder thickness makes getting on an off dangerous. Roofs, windows, and parapets can become impossible to get off in a hurry, thus trapping fire fighters.
3. Contrary to LHS, the hand rail height is significantly lower on Squrts. This is because of the combined height of the truck, boom and the ladder are too high to have higher handrails and still fit in a firehouse. Furthermore, this short hand rail prevents a roof ladder from being placed on the fly section of the ladder because the handrails are too short. This issue of handrails can be tied directly to safety. Victims can be expected to flail about and a proper handrail will help prevent fire fighters from being knocked off.
4. Inadequate ladder storage which may cause fire fighters to vent without secondary egress. I have outfitted our new trucks with 2-35' two section, 1-28' two section, 2-24' two section, 1-24' straight roof, 1-20' straight roof, 2-16' straight roof (one on stick), 1- 12' straight roof, 1-14' two section Fresno attic, 10' folding attic, 15' Little Giant combo. This ladder compliment is what is needed for the fastest and safest ventilation possible. It allows for fast and redundant ladders under most situations. I don't feel it is optimal to have ladders on hydraulic racks like our friend from Fallon suggested. The time needed to lower two racks, strip off all the unneeded ladders and get the three-section 35' ladders is time wasted. Furthermore, standard trucks can easily be equipped to handle two-section 35' ladders. These are better because four fire fighters can get their hooks, saws, axes, and shoulder two 35's on one trip from the truck and not have to make a second trip to the truck. This makes for a fast vent and the safest vent!
In summary, tie your arguments to safety. There are many good reasons to not go with a Squrt and the only reason the chief wants one is that they are cheap to purchace. Make the argument that outfitting a truck for firefighter safety is not too expensive! Good luck!
02-18-2001, 06:22 PM #15ADSN/WFLDFirehouse.com Guest
Calpyro again has made some very good observations about the squrt.
One thing to look at is your response area, hose loads, and can you reasonably guarantee that the rig will be in a position that it could be used.
Just one point of clarification FDNY had two squrts purchased in 1970. They never purchased any more of them.
02-18-2001, 08:38 PM #16LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//I The first and foremost reason to not get a Tele-Squrt is safety.
Please list where one of the 1500 ever made has collapsed? How many firefighters have died using one. How many have you ever heard toppling over?
OK, same three questions on ladder trucks.
//Squrts have drawbacks that can be tied to safety:
1. Poor tip load, 400 lb. dry at low angles.
Does it meet NFPA? Yes The current NFPA calls for a 250 lbs rating for aerials. Gee 400 beats 250.
Whereas almost all the ladders out there in the stations have 0 to 200 lbs tip load under reduced extension and elevation.
//0 lb. wet at low angles.
Whereas a majority of the aerial devices out there have no flow rating at zero degrees and no tip load rating.
Plus a tele squrthas a much wide range of motion compared t th 15 degree right and left of most ladders at 70 to 80 degree elevation angles only.
//Many manufactures provide tip loads of 500-1500 lb. wet at all angles.
Mainly 500 lbs.
//2. Boom and ladder thickness makes getting on an off dangerous.
Just like another 10 makes of ladder devices with waterway nozzle cages.
// Roofs, windows, and parapets can become impossible to get off in a hurry, thus trapping fire fighters.
3. the hand rail height is significantly lower on Squrts.
12" is the standard for all aerial devices. Period.
//This is because of the combined height of the truck, boom and the ladder are too high to have higher handrails and still fit in a firehouse.
Gee why do squrts offer folding 14inch handrails? NFPA is the rule, are they squrt selling non-nfpa.
//Furthermore, this short hand rail prevents a roof ladder from being placed on the fly section of the ladder because the handrails are too short.
Lots of squrts have roof ladder on boom, like all the st louis rigs. A 10' folding would work too.
///This issue of handrails can be tied directly to safety. Victims can be expected to flail about and a proper handrail will help prevent fire fighters from being knocked off.
12" is the standard, The section you work on is the fly, so the range for ladders is 12" to 21.93". Average is 12 3/4".
//4. Inadequate ladder storage which may cause fire fighters to vent without secondary egress. I have outfitted our new trucks with 2-35' two section, 1-28' two section, 2-24' two section, 1-24' straight roof, 1-20' straight roof, 2-16' straight roof (one on stick), 1- 12' straight roof, 1-14' two section Fresno attic, 10' folding attic, 15' Little Giant combo. This ladder compliment is what is needed for the fastest and safest ventilation possible.
That is essentially the same on our squrts. Plus we can carry two 50's.
//I don't feel it is optimal to have ladders on hydraulic racks
I don't think it makes sense to p[lace them in a chute out the rear where anyone can block their removal. If yo look at our racks they can pull out the rear or off the side. Each rack is different than the other, so you can always get the ladders off.
//The time needed to lower two racks, strip off all the unneeded ladders
Gee 20 seconds
/./and get the three-section 35' ladders
Sorry no 3 section ladders on our rig. You don't strip anything to get a 35 off the rig.
//Furthermore, standard trucks can easily be equipped to handle two-section 35' ladders.
Gee all our 35's are two sections. What was the point again you were trying to make??
//the only reason the chief wants one is that they are cheap to purchace.
Not that they multiply the ability of a pumper? Not that they have smaller outrigger spread? Have been produced for 30 years? Give a nice wide hose bed? Allow a large watr tank 750 on a single axle with a 65 foot device? Or a 2500 gallon tank with a tandem? Oh I can think of lots of good reasons.
//One thing to look at is your response area, hose loads, and can you reasonably guarantee that the rig will be in a position that it could be used.
Gee you could say that about any quint. In almost all cases the best hose bed is on a squrt.
//Just one point of clarification FDNY had two squrts purchased in 1970. They never purchased any more of them.
They served in fire heavy companies for 15 years, back when FDNY was really busy. The fact they didn't again, could be said about, LTI< Sutphen, Pierce, E-One, KME, Snorkle, La France, and almost everyone else.
[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 03-03-2001).]
02-18-2001, 09:37 PM #17FDMichiganManFirehouse.com Guest
Of the 500 pictures you have on your site, only one of them shows your squirt doing anything other than being used as an elevated master stream or a light tower. Only once is it used to get to the roof of a building, and then the 2 foot boom looks like it would make getting on and off the roof very difficult. In fact, not one picture shows someone actually climbing the ladder (unless you count the pictures looking down the ladder). Also, the side rails on the squirt look much lower than any ladder I have seen.
Your website says that you bought trucks that fit your district. In your district, it appears that you use the squit as an elevated master stream and as a light tower. Some departments use their ladders for access and would be better served by a true ladder. Get over it. Fallon, like alot of areas has their own special needs. Something that works in Fallon might not work as well somewhere else.
02-18-2001, 10:18 PM #18LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
//Of the 500 pictures you have on your site, only one of them shows your squirt doing anything other than being used as an elevated master stream or a light tower.
So departments with only a 3/4 view of their apparatuas just use them to pose photos? How does a website mean anything as to the use of a device? If you note, not many sites have pictures of inside firefighting, does that mean they don't do it?
//Only once is it used to get to the roof of a building, and then the 2 foot boom looks like it would make getting on and off the roof very difficult.
So do we, it is no big deal. Gosh hope younever have a parapit wall.
//Also, the side rails on the squirt look much lower than any ladder I have seen.
NFPA 12 inches, unless you've got an E-one you don't have much more height than that on the fly.
//Your website says that you bought trucks that fit your district. In your district, it appears that you use the squit as an elevated master stream and as a light tower.
// Some departments use their ladders for access and would be better served by a true ladder.
And some wouldn't.
// Get over it.
What is tere to get over? I'll be part of buying a couple doze aerials this year. NO squrts are not deadly and 1500 of them prove that.
//like alot of areas has their own special needs.
Not really, America is very similar, and if that wasn't true everyone wouldn't be operating either50, 65, 75 85 foot or 100 foot devices would they?
// Something that works in Fallon might not work as well somewhere else.
Then again it just might
02-19-2001, 12:01 AM #19StocktonTruckieFirehouse.com Guest
The fire fighter "Paul" who posted the this thread requested input, not self-promoting banter and criticism any other opinions. Fire fighting is a team endeavor that requires individuals to get along. I assume that you are a volunteer FF who does not need to live with others with different viewpoints. I came to this assumption because if you expressed your views in a firehouse, like you do in this forum, you would not be well thought of. I offer this criticism not to belittle you but to urge you to be more tolerant of other peoples views and opinions.
Food for thought.............Stockton
02-19-2001, 12:23 AM #20LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
Maybe you're right web pages could be the best way to determine actual use. Damn the NFPA facts, about ground ladders compliments, feed b back from actual users, tip loads, hydraulic versus rear chute ladders, hose beds, outrgger spaccing, deaths, tip overs, rail heights..let opinion not based upon fact rule. Tele squrts must deadly and 1500 departments using them are all wrong. The most used aerial device of our time.
As far as Paul goes he can feel whatever he likes, his chief is the chief and if he wants a Tele Squrt quint, get used to it. He shared his opinion I shared mine.
So we can't call foul when someone says a tele squrt onlty supprts 400 lbs when NFPA says 250 for a so called real ladder? EXCUSE ME!
02-19-2001, 01:08 AM #21StocktonTruckieFirehouse.com Guest
I have heard your opinion of trucks, now here mine.
I have never used a Squrt. Tractor pulled aerials are all that I know. Mine has a 110' aerial with a 750lb. tip load, all angles flowing water. It carries 225' of ground ladders and carries all needed equipment for the Stockton FD USAR ICS Type 2 rescue. Team. It is the best truck that I have ever used in my 22 years as a truckie. I have retired 5 trucks in my career and have come to the conclusion that tractor pulled are the only way to run a good truck company. A truck company should be able to do all of the operations of ventilation, salvage, forcible entry, and rescue fast and efficient. Tractor pulled aerials have space for all of the tools necessary for these jobs. From the Squrts that I have seen, none had the room that I need for truck work or a ladder long enough for city buildings. Additionally, I agree with all of the points that Calpyro stated in his/her two posts. It is clear that he/she has put thought into the jobs that trucks need to do and why Squrts come up short.
I have looked at the Fallon FD web site and I am convinced that your Squrts would not hold up to the call volume of a busy FD. It appears to be a very complicated vehicle with every conceivable option. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to maintain it if it had to run on 3500+ truck call per year. I fully expect your reply will be as angry as your previous. Frankly, I don't care.
02-19-2001, 01:20 AM #22calpyroFirehouse.com Guest
A few questions for you:
who made you truck?
What is your truck staffing?
How many fires does your truck go to?
How do you train your truckies?
How well does Stockton pay?
Sorry for the shotgun questions.
[This message has been edited by calpyro (edited 02-19-2001).]
02-19-2001, 01:57 AM #23ArmyTruckCompanyFirehouse.com Guest
A tip for those of you unfamiliar with LHS:
Rule number 1: LHS is always RIGHT.
Rule number 2: When LHS is wrong, refer to
rule number 1.
By the way Larry- when is your new magazine coming out?? I am running out of toilet paper!!!!!
"Loyalty above all else, except honor."
02-19-2001, 02:04 AM #24LHS*Firehouse.com Guest
So you agree with everything he or she said? That the tip load on ladders is better than 400 lbs? Your 750 lbs tip load is less than our squrt above 60 degrees. That the rails are higher? Inadequate ground ladder compliment..adequate for or according to who? You or NFPA?...NFPA says it meets and exceeds the standard. If you agree to those you are simply wrong, it isn't true.
I was speaking generically about squrts. I've used then ina 27 year paid and volunteer carrer sucessfully, even in California.
Figures you'd never used one. It wouldn't make an awesome engine? Think about those acres of wood shake roofs you've got. A great piece for a non-ladder equipped station? Certainly as we proved with our rig in San Jose that an engine and TDA couldn't begin to get water flowing as fast or in the volumes we could produce. Even with 8 paid guys versus 4 volunteers.
I'm sure yours works fine, however folks in your own state add a hosebed, pump and tank to the same rig and run more calls and do just fine.
I'm glad you think TDA non-quints are the only way to go, not everyone agrees. I've used all styles. So what do you carry we don't to do the job of a ladder truck? I don't need the reach or height of a longer stick nor does everyone else. My engines carry everything the sticks carry so we get more than enough stuff on scene. Gropund ladder wise ourr first two rigs brign 340 feet. First four rigs bring 680 feet.
Oh, volunters do just fine with others, we just don't have to take the crap to insure we get our check. If an idea is bull it doesn't continue because so and so who knows when came up with the idea.
You say quints come up short, I can easily reach the roof of any building in town from several locations. In almost any case we can throw a ground ladder quicker to get to the roof (California idea) and or make a ladder resuce than any full size stick can even get its out riggers out.
We can operate without support on any fire as well as wildland events, something you can't do. We have the same ISO grade, so we must be doing a simlar job just not getting paid for it.
We're sure your TDA wouldn't work here as well, we've only got 80,000 miles on them so far. So far the volunteers keep them all on the road. You'd have trouble in the snow. YOur rig isn't fast enough or capable enough to work in this environment. Oh. why wouldn't our rig hold up in flat land Stockton? Have you noticed there are hundreds of places busier than you running quints.
02-19-2001, 02:35 AM #25StocktonTruckieFirehouse.com Guest
who made you truck?
What is your truck staffing?
----1 Capt, 1 Engineer, 3 Fireifghters
How many fires does your truck go to?
----3 working fires last night. T2, 3,722 in 2000, no medicals, just fires, MVA, and rescues
How do you train your truckies?
-----OJT, 3700+ runs per year.
How well does Stockton pay?
-----Very well by any standard. Much Better than Fallon NV.
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