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Thread: Pumper run away

  1. #1
    *LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Pumper run away

    //other fire departments have been telling him about similar problems with their pumpers, and he is encouraging others to check that the switches from "pump" to "road" are working properly on their trucks.

    Anyone buying any of this?

    //
    DeLeon and a second firefighter had engaged the pumps on the back of a 1989 Grumman pumper/tanker at about 7 p.m. Monday. The truck should not have been able to move while pumping, but it somehow kicked into gear at a high RPM and began to roll forward,

    Is this really a case of someone screwed up and got hurt and is pointing the finger?

    COMPLETE STORY

    Runaway Pumper Pins Firefighter

    HEATHER CASEY
    Firehouse.Com News

    A New Mexico firefighter is in serious condition after the pumper she was operating rolled away during a barn fire Monday.

    Jessica DeLeon of the Belen Fire Department is in traction at the University of New Mexico Hospital and faces months of recovery for her broken ribs, broken pelvis and internal injuries, said Chief Wayne Gallegos. However, she has been upgraded from critical condition and taken off a ventilator.

    "She was asking for her cell phone and maybe a hamburger today," Gallegos said.

    He said the main fear now is infection and bleeding.

    DeLeon and a second firefighter had engaged the pumps on the back of a 1989 Grumman pumper/tanker at about 7 p.m. Monday. The truck should not have been able to move while pumping, but it somehow kicked into gear at a high RPM and began to roll forward, the chief said.

    "She jumped from there, trying to get in the cab to stop the truck," Gallegos said. "She got pinned between the door of the cab and pipe fencing."

    The truck continued rolling and knocking down the fence until the other firefighter managed to get into the cab through a window and hit the kill switch.

    "It happened real fast," the chief said.

    As soon as the truck stopped DeLeon fell to the ground and was treated by rescuers at the scene. Because there was no air lift available, she was transported by ALS to the trauma center in Albuquerque, about 30 miles away.

    Gallegos said this is the first time the truck ever malfunctioned this way, and the first time the department has had such a badly injured firefighter.

    "It really tore up our department," Gallegos said. "We're real concerned about her right now."

    The department provided critical incident debriefing and is now investigating what went wrong with the truck.

    The chief said the vehicle is checked every year, and the brakes were on at the time of the accident.

    Since Monday, Gallegos said other fire departments have been telling him about similar problems with their pumpers, and he is encouraging others to check that the switches from "pump" to "road" are working properly on their trucks.

    The Belen Fire Department is a combination paid/volunteer department serving a population under 10,000.

    DeLeon, 32, works as a correctional officer at a local prison and has been volunteering at the fire department for about three years.

    "She's real heavy into our junior firefighting program. She takes a lot of pride in that," Gallegos said.



  2. #2
    CAPTAIN WHO
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    This is a very sad and terrrible incident.

    I have seen and have experinced a run away unit several times.

    With a conventional split shaft t-case it is not possible to engauge both the pump and rear axel at the same time. The sliding shift collar/gear is not wide enought to engage both drives at the same time.

    Based on age the unit it would have had a mechanical linkage throttle. There is no way to lock these out. If the pump had not completed it's shift to pump throttling up would have over powered the brakes and caused the unit to roll. This will happen around 1600 to 1800 rpm on a diesel.

    PTO pumps were also bad for this. Failing to verify a nuetral and throttling up would again result in a runaway.

    Today modern electronics and interlock systems help eliminate this proplem. Electronic throttle controls are locked out until pumps are fully engaged and in lockup with the park brake engaged.

    Pumps will not engage unless the park brake is on. PTO pumps are set up the same way with defined steps and interlock sequences for stationary and pump and roll operations.

    Beware and be safe and never trust an idiot light.

    Again this was a very unfortunant incident and I'm happy to hear she's going to be OK.

  3. #3
    d308
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our pumper has a side mount panel and I have found that it is smart to look and be sure the speedometer is up around 15 before you throttle up. if it is not then it is not in pump gear. We have the older front mount pumps,and a older side mount pump and they can not run away due to the fact that they are standard transmisions. The older side mount that we have is really good because trans is in pump gear(4th gear) and the split shaft is not then when you let out on the clutch the engine will stall. We do have to be carefull with the '95 E-One it has the auto and midship with the idiot light, that is where I learned to look and the speedometer before reving up.

    Hope this helps.

  4. #4
    Da Sharkie
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have to agree with d308. I like to make sure I see the speedometer kick up and I feel and hear the pump engage off of the PTO. I am also trying to train myself to cut the wheel so the truck won't run down a straightaway. I also have to ask myself one thing? Where were the chock blocks? I know I am arm chair quarterbacking here, but there are some things that may not have been done. I also realize thoroughly that there are some things that skip the mind when we see the fire too. We aren't immune to mistakes ourselves either.

    ------------------
    I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything.

  5. #5
    *LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post




    There rig wasn’t a pto/pump and roll fire truck, just a standard midship.

    Sounds like a classic case of ignoring the "ok to pump" lights before getting out the cab AND ignoring the pump panel mounted "ok to advance the throttle" light.

    It is also an example of not following the seven steps to properly engage that make of pump.
    1) With a Waterous pump, bring the vehicle to a stop, shift the transmission to reverse.
    2) Put the transmission in Neutral
    3) Set the parking brake
    4) Engage the pump through the pump shift.
    5) Move the gear shift to Drive.
    6) Make sure the green "ok to pmp" light illuminates.
    7) Before getting out of the cab make sure the speedometer reads 15 to 20 mph (This is a true indication you are in Pump not in Road).

    If you have a transmission 4th gear lock up problem the speedo will show between 2 and 5 mph because you’re only in 1st gear. The pump panel green light [OK to open throttle] will come on any time the truck is in N and the parking brake is set, or if the parking brake is set and the truck is in pump. You can be hooked to a hydrant or having another rig supply you with water and flowing water but not be in pump. You will get suction and discharge gauge readings. The Waterous pump can not be in pump and road at the same time. If the pump is pumping water and the truck shifts to road the noise would be very loud, the shift collar will probably break.

    I went out and pumped a similar Grunman today to see if I could get it to do the same thing. Yep, leave the engine in drive, complete the pump shift, ignore the speedometer ignore the green lights in the cab and pump panel and when you throttle up the fire truck drives away, with or without the parking brake set. This is why the NFPA standard calls for in cab and panel indicators of proper pump shift.

    I think the Fire House piece is accurate to say it is a common problem. The excitement of the fire often has a way of interfering with following the correct steps to engage the pump. I have had the same thing occur at a couple fires where the operator swore he engaged the pump correctly. Only to find he left the rig in Drive when the pump was engaged.

    The so called Waterous Y-series pump transmissions problems where the pump is engaged and the drive line remains engaged and the truck begins to creep away when throttle is advanced, are really operator problems. The fact that it is not possible for the pump transmission to have completed a shift and been in road at the same time shouldn’t be overlooked in this or other incidents. Once the transfer case is shifted out of road gear the shifting collar isn't wide enough to cover the output shaft gear for road travel and the pump input gear for pumping. In theory, the pilot bearing between the shafts could seize and would have to weld itself to both shafts to drive the wheels. However, you don’t drive the fire truck home under its own power after such an unlikely event.

    In every case I’ve ever seen involving “drive aways” the vehicle can always be driven and shifted back and forth between pump and road. If you were in pump and it came out of pump gear and went into road mode while you were pumping, the shift collar would have shattered, the truck would have jumped very noticeably and you would not be driving the truck back to the station.

    The Y Series Tranny also has a shift lock mechanism so when the pump is fully engaged it will not come out of pump mode while it is under a load. It does not matter what type of automatic tranny is in the truck, as all transmissions can produce a residual drive line torque under certain circumstances. The older trucks will produce it if they are idling to high, the newer trucks have a tendency to do this until they are broken in and some just have it and cannot be rectified. Excessive drive line torque normally will cause something similar to a butt tooth condition, what actually happens is the teeth begin to mesh but the excessive torque prevents a complete shift pattern. To prevent this from happening you must use the reverse procedure outlined in your Waterous Pump Manual.

    One other way to create a “drive away”, is not putting the transmission into direct drive so the transmission had to shift through the gears before reaching lock-up. The speedo would indicate you didn’t shift the transmission properly, by indicating a 1 to 5 mph reading. If the pump had indicated a shift but not shifted the transmission should have gone to lock up and stalled the motor. If the shift do not occur at all the transmission would have stayed in converter.

    If you are having problems where the shift process was not complete. Get it fixed. Not taking your time and following the proper pump engagement steps leads to grinding every time the transmission is engaged or disengaged. Eventually the firefighters think it is normal. Don’t leave the cab until you’ve got green lights, the parking brake set, and have 15 to 20 mph speedo reading.

    Make sure that the “Ok to advance the throttle” light is on before you throttle up. If you are having a problem getting the pump to complete the shift put the road transmission into reverse before going into drive. An Allison automatic Transmission(other than the Wolrd Series)may create a torque on the drive shaft. If this is happening you may experience a butt tooth condition preventing a complete shift. I also suggest that you check the pump shift motor, if the motor is getting week it may not be able to load the spring correctly. In any case it will not allow the rig to drive off.

    Sorry for all the techno speak. In short, there is a 99.9999999% chance that in the “In the Heat of the Moment” the transmission was not taken out of drive when the pump was engaged. I’d strongly suggest anyone with a Waterous pump shift create their own step by step instruction plate and have their operators follow it.

  6. #6
    CAPTAIN WHO
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LHS wrote
    //It is also an example of not following the seven steps to properly engage that make of pump.
    1) With a Waterous pump, bring the vehicle to a stop, shift the transmission to reverse.
    2) Put the transmission in Neutral
    3) Set the parking brake
    4) Engage the pump through the pump shift.
    5) Move the gear shift to Drive.
    6) Make sure the green "ok to pmp" light illuminates.
    7) Before getting out of the cab make sure the speedometer reads 15 to 20 mph (This is a true indication you are in Pump not in Road).//

    I've check 15 Waterous Manuals for W and Y series series transmissions. Ranging from 1980 to current. I have probably operated 500 different trucks with Waterous Pumps.

    Where did the initial "reverse" come from it step 1?

    Direct Quote from the manual.

    " WARNING
    Failure to properly shift transmission may result unexpected truck momement which may result in serious personal injury or death."

    Electric or Pnuematic Pump Shift

    Shift to pump as follows:
    1. Bring truck to complete stop.
    2. Reduce engine to idle speed, put truck transmission into NEUTRAL.
    3. Set truck parking brake.
    4. Move pump shift control to PUMP Position.
    5. Wait at least 4 seconds.
    6. Shift truck Transmission in pumping gear.

    CAUTION
    Shifting truck transmission into pumping gear above idle speed may cause damage to the equipment.

    7. Green PUMP ENGAGED and OK TO PUMP lights should be on.

    CAUTION
    If OK TO PUMP light is not on, momentarly shift truck transmission into REVERSE, then NEUTRAL, Then back into pumping gear. Green OK to pump light should be on.

    If green light is not on, use the manual override if so equipted.

    8. Increase engine speed above idle and hold for a few seconds, Watch speedometer t make sure it shows some value of road speed.

    NOTICE
    Some fire trucks have speedometer thsi will not show a value to road speed in a stationary position.

    WARNING:
    If the truck attempts to move, reduce engine speed to idle. Put truck transmission in neutral and repeat shifting instructions.

    9. After leaving truck cab, block wheels using wheel chocks."

    End Waterous Manual quote.

    Now ever truck has it's quirks and may by yours works better going to reverse each time. I don't know.

    The key is that any operator / driver. Needs to know his rig like they know the bumps and lumps of there significant other. Even a "once in a while" operator needs to know the rigs. The sounds, feel and responces as you push her various buttons. KNOW YOUR RIG.



  7. #7
    *LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //Where did the initial "reverse" come from it step 1?

    FAMSA. It is the only way to adderess a buk tooth condition.

    Going to reverse as it says in the manuals, simple lines the gears up. If you do it everytime there is no chance of Buk tooth, no chance of drive off, no chance of engaging the pump and hearing grinding...come on out of 500 waterous pumps you've operated you've never heard grinding? The pump always engages on the first attempt every single time?

    Why do you suppose Waterous offers the option,because it always works the first time?

    //8. Increase engine speed above idle and hold for a few seconds, Watch speedometer t make sure it shows some value of road speed.

    If 5 mph is an indication of incorrect transmission gear, ie. transmission shifter in 1, 2 3, etc not 4th or D. If you want to prove the manual wrong on "some indication" of speed put the transmission in "1". You'll get an indication but won't be able to pump. The same thing occurs if the pump transmission does not go into converter and walks through all the gears...a dangerous condition because each shift can pull the line out of yor hands.

    A reading of 15 to 20 mph is a true indication of pump engagement.

    Oh, the day before yesterday another fire engine drove off and killed the engineer.

    //10. After leaving truck cab, block wheels using wheel chocks." End Waterous Manual quote.

    Gee where does it say to look for a green ok to throttle up light on the panel? Did they leave a few things out? Certainly that is step 10. 11. would be no light get back in the cab and start over. 12. If the rig starts to drive off push the throttle in ad do't jump on a moving rig to try to stop it. Wouldn't it?

    Engage the pump ayway you like, if you follow what I suggested you won't ever have drive offs.

  8. #8
    CAPTAIN WHO
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You quoted Waterous Pump shift instructions.
    Just Setting the record straigt.

    500 different apparatus with Waterous pumps?
    I work for a major fire apparatus builder as a Service Manager. 500 was a concervitive number.

    1000 alarm fire?

    I am attempting to understand however placing the transmission in reverse then to nuetral then engage the pump will do little for a butt tooth condition.

    A butt tooth condition will only occur when the sliding gear moves off the rear driveline and contacts the impeller drive and will not mesh.

    Thus the reason for the steps Waterous listed. Once you have attempted engagement place the transmission in reverse Then nuetral and then pump gear.

    With the pressure being applied by the shift fork on the gear appling a reverse direction on the input shaft will allow the gear teeth to slip into a mesh condition.

    As you would also know approx 3yrs ago Waterous changed the gears design to help reduce the butt tooth problem by camferring the gears. A world transmission will have a very slow rotation while in nuetral, with the rear axle disengauged. This slow rotation assists the gears to obtain mesh. The rotation is also very soft and can be stopped with your hands.

    If you cant stop the rotation easily the pressure in the transmission is to high. This condition will routinly result failed attempts to engauge. But not due to a butt tooth condition rather essesive pressure applied on the rear axle drive line not allowing the sliding gear to come off the rear axle out put shaft. (Going to reverse first wouldn't fix this problem either.) You need to shut the unit down and allow the internal pressure in the transmission to dump. Restart the unit and go right into the enguagement sequence. Placing the unit in reverse right away will only once again cause excess pressure that will not dump.

    This type of issue needs to be looked at by a Allisons Techs.

    You will want to watch you advise. By stating do it this way and you will never have a problem. As a some what respected columist you must also realize some one might pay attention to you.

    If you have ever had a hint of enguagement problems contact your nearest service centre and have the problem looked into. If it turns out to be a training defficency then get the training. Most accidents occur from complaicency or lack of knowlege.

  9. #9
    axman
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Da Sharkie:
    [B]I have to agree with d308. I like to make sure I see the speedometer kick up and I feel and hear the pump engage off of the PTO. I am also trying to train myself to cut the wheel so the truck won't run down a straightaway. I also have to ask myself one thing? Where were the chock blocks? I know I am arm chair quarterbacking here, but there are some things that may not have been done. I also realize thoroughly that there are some things that skip the mind when we see the fire too. We aren't immune to mistakes ourselves either.


    Have you ever seen a truck run over wheel Chocks? it is posable that they were throttled up enough that wheel chocks would not make a difference in this incident and the truck would have broken the chocks or pushed the chocks in to the ground!


    ------------------
    STAY SAFE ALL OF MY BROTHERS.

  10. #10
    CAPTAIN WHO
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Axman

    Anything is possible.

    I've seen chocks slide across pavement. Get pounded into softer ground. 7" wheel chocks on older trucks are not uncommon. These can be ran over. Most new pumpers carry an 11" wheel chock even these can be overpowered but you really have to try.

    From the 2 articles we really don't know much. 1 member died the other seriosly hurt but we really don't know the conditions or what happened. We can guess and speculate and hope to learn from each other as to what may have happened and try to avoid it ourselves.

    Take care out there and be safe.

    [This message has been edited by CAPTAIN WHO (edited 06-21-2001).]

  11. #11
    *LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We are not talking a PTO pump.

    //You quoted Waterous Pump shift instructions.
    Just Setting the record straigt.
    500 different apparatus with Waterous pumps?
    I work for a major fire apparatus builder as a Service Manager. 500 was a concervitive number.

    1000 alarm fire?

    //I am attempting to understand however placing the transmission in reverse then to nuetral then engage the pump will do little for a butt tooth condition.

    Of course I never used that term.

    If you follow the steps I suggested, the pump will engage if you drove it there and if the pump is capable of pumping. But hey, only two rigs were reported driving off this week. Both with tragic results. Do whatever you want to do.

    //Going to reverse first wouldn't fix this problem either

    Gee, why does Waterous suggest the use of reverse? Because it works every single time.

    //You will want to watch you advise. By stating do it this way and you will never have a problem. As a some what respected columist you must also realize some one might pay attention to you.

    I was quite clear in my post, that mechcanical conditions should be repaired, non-mechanical...wired engineers should be slowed down and add a few steps. When it required two firefighters to engage a pump, the first thing comes to mind is training...or lack of it. Oh, that same post above was sent to everyone on NFPA 1901 and the pump builders, no one disputed it.

    //We can guess and speculate and hope to learn from each other as to what may have happened and try to avoid it ourselves.

    The facts are, you cannot make a non-pump and roll drive away if it is in pump. Training training training.

    //1000 alarm fire

    Right now one county over the guys are working a fire with 3069 guys, 79 hand crews, 11 tankers, 54 dozers, 19 helicopters, 254 engines, 59 tenders, overhead (440ish) etc.

    How many "equivalent" alarms to use Fire House dot Com terminology???



    [This message has been edited by *LHS (edited 06-21-2001).]

  12. #12
    CAPTAIN WHO
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You questioned the number of apparatus I have operated. As you were questioned about your 1000 alarmer. I didn't need further explination I read your post.

    As usuall you did not read the posts and took comments out of context and spun them as you have done others.

    Your original post stated placing the unit in reverse prior to pump engagement. Mine stated post engagement. Your last post disputed what I said and then comfirmed what I said.

    //Gee, why does Waterous suggest the use of reverse? Because it works every single time.

    It will not work in a case of exessive interal hydralic pressure in the transmission as stated earlier.


    You stated numerous times this was not a PTO pump. Understood. The W and Y series are split shaft t-cases. I am not sure where you got the idea it I was reffering to a PTO pump. I mentioned the possiblilty in my first post. You stated it was a Y t-case. I accepted that information. Any thing else stated was based on Y series t-case.

    You are pointing out for the most part proceedural issues. I reviewed an advised of some items that didn't seem to fit well. I further advised of addition mechanical reasons for this to happen.

    We are both for the most part arguing the same point. Training and knowlege save lives. Know your units. Don't become a stat.

    Again I express my sadness for my Canadian Brother and family who lost his life to this mishap.


  13. #13
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Help me along a little.If I were running a fire pump,throttled up and the truck moved the first thing I would do is throttle down.I've yet to see a road worthy truck that will move with the spring brakes applied at IDLE.Of course I'm still working in a Dept. full of 7 spds. so you more auto literate will have to enlighten me.In doing some research on this subject,I've found that in a lot of the cases when the truck moved and the operator panicked and forgot the first step.THROTTLE DOWN!If one of you folks KNOWS something I don't please enlighten me.I teach pumps all over the state and any information (accurate)provided will be adressed in the safety part of my program.Thanks T.C.

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