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  1. #1
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    Cool Pumps On Aerial Apparatus

    We are starting the spec process on a new aerial. I would like to hear from you out their about the need to have a pump or not to have a pump on a truck company. This would be are only truck company and we have 4 stations. After seening some of your comments I want to add a bit of info. We are going to run it as a truck company some of our concerns are loss of space, training, etc. We are a paid on call / career dept. We also are looking at type of areials rear mount, mid-mount, bucket visa stick etc. Because we are updating our system price is not the problem.

    [ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Steve Preston Div Chief ]</p>


  2. #2
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    I would definitely spec a pump on your ladder truck. If you don't have one, you should plan on allocating an engine simply to supply your ladder truck. Also, another pump on a fire ground never hurts. I simply think it's more efficient to have the ladder truck be able to pump it's own water and it makes the truck more independent and versatile.
    Captain 203
    FF/EMT-CT

  3. #3
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    Kind of a vague question, so the answer is kind of vague: Depends. Are you looking at a quint or a truck with a small pump and no water tank? If you are comfortable with depending on another co or station for your engine, why not just go with a straight truck? Our quint is more of a pumper (2000/300) with a ladder than it is a truck. We have slightly more ground ladders than our engine company, but no where near what the true trucks run.

  4. #4
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    Ladder, water, etc all get down to design, Our trucks carry more ground ladders than the standard aerial 50, 2 x 35, 2x 24, 2 x 16, 2 x 10, 7 times the water of a standard quit and still have big pumps. It makes hydraulic sense to have the pump, the water tank is not essential if the rig is not going to be a pumper for any reason other than ladder pipes. Why commit a pumper to supply a ladder pipe in the days of so called staffing shortages?

  5. #5
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    Wink

    Chief Preston, I wish we knew more about your department. My opinion is stay away from a quint. With quints is the temptation to use them as a pumper instead of a truck. Apparatus spotting on the fire ground is different for both types of vehicles and you run the chance of having everything out of place if the scene changes from offensive to defensive posture. Quints also encourage departments to run understaffed companies (we can use one crew to operate two vehicles in one). You must also divide training time between pumper and truck operations. Also you have the added expense of a pump, tank and hose bed, replicating what you already possess and taking away space for ladders and other truck tools. I understand the desire for versatility. If your department has only 3/4 paid personnel on duty period, then your really not out anything by getting a quint. I'm not against quints they do have some advantages but so do plain old trucks.

  6. #6
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    Well. I would have to recommend you go with one. But then again I don't know your departments settings and needs and stuff.
    Firefighter/EMT Mitch Cowen
    Hose Co. 1 1st Lieutenant
    Randolph Fire Co. Inc

  7. #7
    dazed and confused Resq14's Avatar
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    Cool

    E-One.

    Oh, wait was was the question? Pump on your truck? Ah sorry. If you can afford it, why not go for it? I hear what others are saying about truck company duties being neglected if clear policies aren't in place and trained on. The focus of the truck with a pump should almost always be "truck company duties" --if-- you only have 1. I guess if you adopt a total-quint concept, that's a different beast entirely.

    Like was said before, the pump just increases the flexibility of the truck and allows it to supply itself. It does seem like we hear an aweful lot on these forums about truck company duties being neglected when a 1 truck department operates their truck as an engine.

    Food for thought.

  8. #8
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    without starting a p*ssing contest, what is the price difference with a pump and without? What kind of space will you loose with the pump and plumbing? And the question of a tank was never answered either. But the7tower is right, you get what you design based on your needs.

  9. #9
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    Based upon our recent price quotes the difference in cost between a straight stick and a ladder with pump was $22K and full quint added $40K. So 6% difference in cost. But what a difference in performance! You don't have to lose anything on the rig in exchange for water, hose bed or pump.

  10. #10
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    If price is not an issue, why not just buy two new trucks to replace what you are running with now. Just because one is a piece of s#&t, doesn't mean you have to dump both of them, and completely change the operations of your department. Besides, how much experience on a truck does the station have that is going to get the one new truck? Why have a pump when 99.9% of your runs do not require it?

  11. #11
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    Cool

    i say go with a midmount aerial with a pump. but i dont know your department needs so use your best judgement. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

    [ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: cape19 ]</p>

  12. #12
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    I would vote to go without a pump. We bought a Pierce 100' platform in 1993. Nice rig, has been a good piece of equipment. One regret is putting a pump on the rig. Added weight. Loss of compartment space. Added cost and complexity. We only flow water from the platform every year or so. We have 5 engines, so pumping capability is not an issue. And when we flow the ladder pipe, it it a situation that usually involves mutual aid. Another issue is that we don't pump it very often, so it is a chore to keep all the valves and that sort of thing working properly, due to lack of use. It just adds another maintenance issue. It is a shame to put a 100' aerial out of service for pump problems. We had planned to run this rig first due on some calls, but we never did. I would not want to load hose on this monster frequently, much more hassle than on an engine. Good luck!

  13. #13
    Senior Member BFD196's Avatar
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    Well you don`t seem to have an engine shortage with 4 stations, so at a scene I`m sure you wouldn`t have a problem getting water to your truck. Therefore, I`d say no to they pump, but I guess it really depends on what kind of manpower, and how many rigs you get at fires.

  14. #14
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    Thumbs down

    My department operates a 100' ladder-platform with a pump.

    My opinion is to get a rear-mount ladder with a platform WITHOUT a pump. Use the space instead to get a big-*** generator and extra bin space. If you've got four stations I'll assume (I hope correctly) that you've got engines in all of them.

    Yes, the addition of a pump on the ladder makes it able to supply itself and makes it all that more versatile, BUT: 99.99 times out of 100 it'll just take up space and you'll use an engine to supply the aerial. It just makes it that much more complicated to train your guys on. It's also 1 more pump to test and maintain. ($$$)

    If you have a pump, sooner or later somebody will give in to the temptation to (A)try to run it as an engine or--worse yet--(B)take up valuable bin space with pumper equipment that could normally be used for truck gear (for example: having a pump automatically means you have to have 2 crosslays mounted, whether you plan to use them regularly or not. I believe that's NFPA).

    If we had ours to do over again, the guys that actually run the truck would much rather do without the pump and get the extra bins. And make 'em deep ones.
    I can think of no more stirring symbol of man's humanity to man than a fire engine.

    --Kurt Vonnegut

  15. #15
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    Well, here is my question. What are the liabilities of not having a pump on the truck? What I am asking is, what if the truck is out in territory and you drop a fire, and the truck ends up first due. Does the crew just sit there until a pumper arrives on scene? Or, do they sit and wait until they know a pumper will get there first? What if there victims? To me these are all liabilities for the fire department. Some of you may not think of it this way, and I have heard the arguments for both sides, however I still believe that it is a liability not to have a pump on a ladder truck.<br />Someone mentioned mutual aid. Here is another question. What happens when you go on a mutual aid run? Your surrounding departments need to understand that if they call for that piece of equipment, they had better make sure that they have an engine company coming with it to back it up. I understand the whole training issue that was posed earlier, but learning to pump an apparatus is not that hard, your operators should already be familiar with pump ops. <br />The biggest question that has not been asked is, what does the current ladder have, and what are it's capabilities? <br />Now all that being said, I would vote for a Mid-mount platform, with a pump, and a tank.

    [ 12-23-2001: Message edited by: FD111 ]</p>

  16. #16
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    Never been a fan of pumps on ladder trucks. To many SOP considerations (if the ladder is first arriving and puts handlines in service, who does the truck work? If the ladder is first arriving do you position it as an engine or a ladder? There could be a difference.)

    Also, as stated earlier, the added cost of a pump, tank and hose beds has to be considered. How many times will these things be used? I'd lean towards more compartment space for truck tools. With four stations (min 4 engines?) in town, you don't need to carry any more engine co. stuff.

    On the question of type of aerial, i'd ask the the following:<br />1. What is the make up of your response area (residential, industrial, commercial)?<br />2. What are the building set backs?<br />3. Is this ladder the only one that is due on the box?<br />4. What other aerial types are available through mutual aid?<br />5. Do you have any height or weight restrictions?

    You need to answer these questions and then bring in some manufactures demo units and run them through your area.

    For my money, a mid mount tower ladder without a pump is as good as it gets.

  17. #17
    Junior Member Ladder Man's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    There is no liability issue here. If you buy a apparatus with no pumps then you dont pump. If you roll up on a fire first due, I hope you will do more than just set and wait on the first due engine. How about search and rescue, utilities, laddering the structure? There is plenty to do other than throwing water on the fireground! It's all about common sense and training. As for the question about pumps, if your men are a dedicated truck or ladder company then keep them that way.I SAY NO PUMPS! You can always use the extra compartment space, and find a engine company to take care of your water.

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by FD111:<br /><strong>What are the liabilities of not having a pump on the truck?</strong><br />Wouldn't that be the same as an ambulance being without a pump? Different rigs, different equipment and uses. Our bus is out for hours straight and call in as many MVA's and car fires as dispatch. Its a truck, not an engine. <br /><strong> however I still believe that it is a liability not to have a pump on a ladder truck.</strong> <br />Isn't it more of a liability (to rescuer and victim alike) to neglect truck work? Just another example of firefighters not being able to follow directions (orders?)<br /><strong>Someone mentioned mutual aid. Here is another question. What happens when you go on a mutual aid run? Your surrounding departments need to understand that if they call for that piece of equipment, they had better make sure that they have an engine company coming with it to back it up.</strong><br />Wouldn't they be calling it for truck company purposes rather than one of the four other engine companies in town? Let them run their own scene and do your job!!

  19. #19
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    Now that I have taken a good tongue lashing from a couple of you, I have a bit of a confession to make. Around here, most engine companies are trained to do truck work, and truck companies are trained to engine company work, so it doesn't matter who arrives first. If the truck arrives first, then the first due engine can pick up the truck company work, and in some cases where we don't get a truck company we only get tankers, the engine companies have to do the truck work. So you can see why I have the attitude that I have taken on the issue of having a pump on the truck. I think it gives the truck versatility.

    Quint1driver, to answer you question about the ambulance, I pose a question back. Does your ambulance look like a fire truck or does a ladder truck look like a fire truck? You figure out which one the public views being a fire truck. As for the remark about firefighters not following directions (orders?), my SOG's state to do a primary search and put the fire out, they may not be YOUR directions (orders), but they happen to be mine. Now for the mutual aid question. Yes they would be calling for that piece of apparatus for truck purposes, but most likely, they will be wanting the ladder pipe. If the truck had it's own pump it could take care of itself rather than tying up another piece of apparatus. Now I may be wrong about that, but that is my view on the subject.

    <br />Sorry to everyone else in this forum for turning this into a ****ing match of sorts, but I felt I needed to air my OPINION, on the matter.

    [ 12-25-2001: Message edited by: FD111 ]</p>

  20. #20
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    FD111, please don't take that as interrogatory as it looked, it wasn't my intention. I just wanted to get across that as a truck, its job is drastically different from an engine (or ambulance). Locally, most companies work without a true truck, some run quints, so things are always different for them. As long as people realize what it is there for, everything works out. Personally, I like to get the truck guys in just as the preconnects come off. That gets them in and searching without tripping over the engine guys. <br />Stay safe and have a Merry Christmas, brother. BTW, didn't you guys just change over your fleet? Hows that working out? Got a website we could check out?

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