Thread: 2000 GPM pumps?

  1. #1
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    4

    Question 2000 GPM pumps?

    I'm curious, why am I seeing more and more, BIG gpm pumps? I'm wondering if I am missing something here. I realize I am opening myself up here, but I don't understand the need for these huge pumps. Not to mention having them single stage. <br /> <br />First I'm not sure why you would need much more than a 1250 gpm. Now I realize there are departments with special needs but I see alot of 1500's & 2000's. My calculations are, if we have a single family dwelling burning usually you don't flow more than a 1000 gpm at max. Let's say we have an apartment complex or strip mall burning generally you aren't flowing more than 1500 gpm from one single engine even with deck guns flowing and a 1250 will flow that no problem from a hydrant. <br /> <br />Now if we have a warehouse or big commercial structure, they usually have springlers or stand pipes or both. They generally have their own fire pumps and all we are going to do is support the system with extra psi as long as there hasn't been some catastraphic failure. If you have one of these structures without springlers or standpipes, then your water mains probably can't supply a 2000 gpm any way. <br /> <br />One last thing, I don't understand a 2000 gpm on an aerial either, not to mention when you pump test it, you have to bring in water from both of your 6" steamer connections which I've heard is a real trick. I am not being a smart butt here, I'm just curious. Thanks for your time. Let me know what you think. Thanks again. <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

    [ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: jpgfdff ]</p>

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    27

    Post

    As with everything in the fire service it seems bigger is better. It seems that bigger pumps are the by-product of several factors. First we are now buying motors with 450+ HP, adding preconnects, blitz lines front trash lines, and prepiped deck guns. I knwo that on HALE pumps get the same pump from ( QSMG or QMAX) wether it is a 1000 gpm or a 2000 gpm unit. The only thing that changes is the gear ratio of the pump and the number of discharges, ( given the six inch intakes). So since we have the motors and discharges and there is almost no cost diffence in the pump it is easy to buy the bigger.

    And as to single stage todays motors have more than enough power to generate the higher pressures needed. Check Hales web site for an artical on single vs. two stage.

    I am sure there are other reasons but these are them most common that I have found and expirenced.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Cranford, NJ, USA
    Posts
    50

    Post

    JP,amen to that I thought I was the only one to think like you. We bought a 1750 in 96 and just got a 2000 this year. People buy theses beasts with out having enough manpower or water supply to use them to there<br /> full potential.<br /> As you stated wait till you try a and pump test them. Yes you do need 2 6 inch suctions and you should be going to a 3 inch tip to keep the pressure down to the middle of the chart. I have yet to get the capacity test on the 1750 since we bought, And I cant wait for next year to do the 2000. Try and find a test site that will give the water needed and be set up so you can use 2-6"s.<br />WE use a fixed test pit that can only handle 1 gun,still havent figured out tosolve the problem.<br />The chief insisted on buying the 2000 so he could get rid of a 1250 and 1000 to save maintainance cost yet still keep our fireflow. I tried explaining the problems to him and his answer was, we will worry about it later. There is supposed to be a dept in NJ that has a 2250.Nobody in my area has been able to pump test a 2000 yet that I know of

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    TCFD12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    238

    Thumbs up

    Man I must be the odd ball here??? Why not 2000 gpm. Please don't sit here and tell me that you'll never use it, you can never assume that!! My department runs a 95' Sutphen Quint with a 2000 GPM pump, and I have no problem telling you it was an easy decision, the bucket alone can flow 1500 GPM, add a few 2 1/2" discharges, maybe a few 1 3/4" handlines,... you get the point. The amount of discharges and preconnected lines demanded that. Would you design a truck and only be able to use 1/2 the discharges?? I think not. Please don't assume that we all only need 1250 GPM pumps, your grossly mistaken.

    As far as the testing, thats why there are vendors out there, it is not your responsibility as a firefighter to do the yearly test and I'm sure there are plenty of testing agencies that can easily test 2000 GPM pumps. I realize that maybe some smaller more rural departments maybe cannot afford this luxury, and maybe that IS an issue for them.

    Sorry, jpgfdff and WRENCH, but I think you guys are way off here and I can only hope that maybe you could consider thinking "outside of the box".

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    North East Wi. USA
    Posts
    261

    Thumbs up

    We currently run a 2500 GPM rear mount. I agree why not. We have many buildings in the 50-100,000 square foot all wood and truss design. If we can get 1000 gpm out of our hydarants we are lucky. So we depend on relay with lots of 5" and big pumps. <br />Also the cost difference is not a big thing, and with todays engines having plenty of power its easy to turn them.<br />We are lucky in that we have pleanty of places to test the big units for flow. We do hire a outside source to test and PM the pumps every year with our help.<br />SBLG

  6. #6
    Banned

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    110

    Post

    With 8 inch and larger mains common in almost any downtown USA or modern water system, 2000 gom is no problem. Punp testing has never been an issue here either. Dual LDH lines supply the rig just fine.

    We have no problem creating 3000 to 4000 gpm with just 4 guys in 3 minutes or less. Or covering a 500 foot by 400 foot area with one rig with interwoven master streams. It all depends on the risks you cover.

    Sprinkler systems can easily need more than 2000 gpm. Towns are full of 3500 to 7000 gpm unsprinkled risks. Rows of shake roofs, garden apartments, rows of buildings under construction, etc.

    The cost for the big pumps is insignificant or even less than other options that are smaller.

    You only buy a pump once, might as well make full use of the apparatus and water systems abilities.

    Even in a rural setting flowing 2000 to 3500 gopm is not that big a deal without hydrants. Just takes plannning and that is the FD's mission.

    If all we care about is houses then any pump over 400 gpm is a waste. No one would need 5 inch or even 4 inch hose. Why own a deck gun?

    Big pump on a ladder? 1000 gpm reauires 180 to 200 psi to get it out of the tip. That requires a 1500 gpm pump 1500 requires 2000.

    All these cover photos seem to indicate not all jobs are interior and many FD's are losing there *** on exterior ones.

  7. #7
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Magnolia, Texas
    Posts
    5

    Post

    We kick ourselves in the butt everyday for not getting 2250 gpm pumps in all of our new rigs. It would have gotten us a better ISO grade and would have given us more tactical options for our district.

    Buck

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Post

    I have yet to get the capacity test on the 1750 since we bought, And I cant wait for next year to do the 2000. Try and find a test site that will give the water needed and be set up so you can use 2-6"s.

    IIRC (If I Recall Correctly) even 2000gpm pumps can be rated with one 6" suction. 2 is an option that is allowed if they can't make it with one.

    I'm in the middle of compiling a database of the trucks my company has had since it's founding as part of our 75th anniversary. Here's some extracts from the UL Pump test for our 1995 Engine-Tank:<br />-- Cummins M11-350E<br />-- Allison HD4060<br />-- Hale QSMG-150-235<br />-- 20' of 6" suction<br />The pump test of course includes the details of the standard pump rating...then...<br />"Customer requested Maximum Discharge Flow Test. Using a 2.5" inch nozzle, the following results were noted. Discharge No. 4: 1450gpm. Discharge No. 6: 1082gpm. Discharge No. 7: 1273gpm. Discharges No. 6 and No. 7: 1950gpm from Draft."

    BTW, Discharge No. 4 is the opposite from the pump panel and was spec'd by us to flow the rated capacity. Nos. 6 & 7 come off the top of the pump to feed a preconnect 2.5" and 3"...kinda of a waste of capacity in hindsight! It did show us in future engines to work more carefully with the designers to not stop on spec'ing maximum capacity from a single discharge -- those Nos. 6 & 7 discharges could have been Siamese together and brought to the side to give us a very high capacity discharge on a "1500gpm" pump.

    Long and short, I really don't buy it that big pumps are tough to test. Most modern 2000gpm pumps can do it through a single 6". Heck, our 1500gpm pump can do 2000gpm through one.

    If it's really tough finding a spot to put in 2 6" suctions and you need, buy better (i.e. lightweight flexible) suctions you can turn towards the front of the truck. Might not be a bad idea to have them anyway if your municipal system can't support 2000gpm pumps either!

    Why go with such large pumps? Why not. A 1000gpm, a 1500gpm pump both put out 250gpm when you need it. So does a 2000gpm pump. When you need to major flows, you need the bigger pumps and the less trucks you need to do it, the faster you can setup the flow. High flows aren't neccessarily high manpower -- once the master streams are in place, it's not like we're advancing them often. Aerials, even for buildings that are "on the ground" take a lot less firefighters to setup and put water on the fire than trying to move even a single 2.5" "blitz" line around.

    Hydraulically, they're a big help. Most LDH is rated "Supply" or 185psi working pressure. As we know, pump capacity goes down and net pump pressure goes up.

    Take a 1500gpm pumper, go up to 150psi, it'll send 1500gpm down 1700' of Angus Hi-Vol 5". Put in a 2000gpm pumper, go up to 185psi. It'll still put out 1500gpm, and send it down 2200' of Hi-Vol 5". Maybe those sound like long lays in the city, in my town our *average* 5" hose lay in 2500', so that extra capacity would be useful.

    Yes, it used to be engines couldn't drive the big pumps. Our 1969 pumper with it's Gas engine only drove a 750gpm pump. The 1986 pumper with a 235hp Diesel drives a 1500gpm that with dual suctions can be pushed to 1700gpm. But with 350, 400, 450hp engines now typical in fire apparatus, we can drive a lot bigger pumps without breaking a sweat. Really see no reason why not...what's the worse that'll happen, that the fire goes out sooner?

    Matt
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    157

    Post

    Well, I know you've heard this already, but why not?

    It seems to me that a 2000+ gpm pump is a way to maximize your minimum staffing, not waste it.

    Let's say you have a fire that requires 2000gpm to extinguish. Would you rather wait for two 1000gpm engines to arrive with full crews, lay their own LDH supply lines, and set up master streams, or wait for one 2000gpm engine to arrive fully staffed, lay dual LDH lines, and begin fire attack from dual guns (or a single 2000gpm gun)?

    If you need to supply all your water from draft, it makes even more sense. Do you want to wait for four 1000gpm engines and their loads of LDH, or only two 2000gpm engines with their dual beds of LDH?

    Could it be that the reason many departments with 2000gpm pumps can't supply them because they weren't spec'd to lay enough big hose?

    You can plan when you test your pumps and make sure you have enough manpower (if you do it yourself), but you can't plan when the Big One will come to town.

    As far as aerials go, most towers have 1500-2000gpm water ways now. Even if it is just a 1000gpm stick, couldn't it still supply a deck gun or two? (Oops, did I say something I wasn't supposed to?)

    <br />So, if you couldn't tell already, I would say spec the 2000gpm pump. Or how about 3000gpm? <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

  10. #10
    Member

    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    South Central Pennsylvania
    Posts
    47

    Cool

    Being somewhat of a fire apparatus buff and I have a wide fire service back ground. I also sell apparatus part-time. Here is my opinion and perspective based on what I have seen first hand or actually done. I feel there is definately a need for large pumps but they just don't fit in every location or department set-up. Here are some situations where these large pumps pay off.<br />1. If you have a excellent water system in your area with large mains.<br />2. If you border a large body of water such as a river, lake, ocean, bay, ect.<br />3. If your unit is set-up for large streams attack - such as the aerial mentioned previously.<br />LDH is a must for a a unit with a big pump!<br /> FDNY was the first to perfect a system years ago with the super pumper, tender, & satelites. This system was replaced with newer satelite units. They currently operate 6 (I think) first line pumpers with 2000gpm pumps. In addition they have several high pressure pumpers with a 3 stage set-up for pumping high rise standpipe and sprinkler systems.<br />To buy a pumper with a big pump just to have a big pump is a big waste of money. The unit must also be equiped properly to be effective. This unit must also be designed and built to be used for this purpose.<br />A department I ran with in Maryland for 2 years had all 2000gpm Waterous 2 stage pumps on Pierce units. The 1976 was the first unit built by Pierce and is still ran as a water supply unit today. The units all had dual 6" intakes on the right panel in addition to front and rear suctions. Any unit operating in the attack mode would use the pressure stage unless large flows were required. Any unit operating in the supply mode would operate in volume stage. Their new unit has a Hale 2250gpm single stage. <br />A department I worked at in New Jersey also operated similar pumps in the same fashion. These units were also built by Pierce. Rehobeth Beach Delaware had a 1977 Mack CF pumper with a 2000gpm Water. This unit carried two large Hanney reels with 1500' of 5' hose each. The unit had dual 6" intakes on the right panel also carried 6 lengths of 6" hard sleeves. They would even draft from sea water should the situation dictate. Pretty advanced for back then. They would reverse lay to the closest water source and pump water to the fire.<br />Another simlar unit belonged to Mareitta PA who had a 1986 MACK CF with Pierce body. 2000gpm pump and 2000' of 5" with dual intakes and several sections of hard sleeve.<br />Lastly I know of a unit built by Seagrave about 4 or 5 years ago for a town near Wilkes Barre PA. This unit was second out and would also run mutual aid to surrounding towns. It had 2000gpm single stage pump and 1500' of 5" hose.<br />I have seen several of these units pop up from different manufactures over the past 5 years.<br />If you have a water source large enough and get into it with a low lift then any pumper can complete this task. Or two pumpers and be placed side by side and complete the same task. Remember that they need to pump at even pressures. How many of you carry more than 2 or 3 lengths of hard sleeve on a unit? Ever seen a unit with dual primers instead of a single one? This is a must with lots of hard sleeves. If you are strickly rural I recommend this on all units. If one primer fails you have a second one there. If you run a unit with a large pump then set-up and training in proper operations are a must. <br />Would you put a 1000gpm pumper on a hydrant that produces more than 1500gpms?<br />Do you carry more LDH on your unit than your unit can pump? Such as 1500' on a 1000gpm unit.<br />If so are your drivers and officers aware of the units limitations? <br />Water supply is an easy animal to tame if you go about things the right way.<br />Remember a big pump does not make a water supply company & a big tool does not make a rescue company or a porno star. Hope this bit of information helps with this discussion. <br />Be safe and take care. FGN <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    firemangeorge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    266

    Post

    If your pumping that much water from your pumpers, you've lost the building folks. Now you're wasting water. Sprinkler systems were invented to stop a fire in the insipient stage. If it has gone beyond that, your water should be directed to the crews inside, not the useless sprinkler heads. I can't wait to meet the guy you try pumping 2000 gpm to. If he lives, he's gonna kill you. If you have multiple lines from one pumper, and it's doing ALL the work, you're endangering your crews. Multiple 1000gpm pumpers at each side of the fire building, supplying the troops, would do just fine. If you've gone defensive, your just puttin' on a show til the fire load runs out. <br />All machines are prone to failure. Don't put all your eggs in one 2000 gpm pumper, unless the hose bed is large enough to carry caskets.
    See You At The Big One

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Post

    2. If you border a large body of water such as a river, lake, ocean, bay, ect.

    Nah, not really that big at all.

    A cubic foot holds 7.5 gallons.

    An acre is 43,560 square feet x 7.5 gallons = 326,700 gallons "per acre-foot". So have a modest sized pond about 200' on a side, you can draft 2000gpm from it for over 2 1/2 hours...and drop it about a foot.

    An typical residential swimming pool is 16' x 32' x 5' average depth. That's 19,000+ gallons. Guess what? A 2000gpm can draft from it too, and deliver 350gpm for an hour. (Now one wonders how handy a turbodraft would be on the attack pumper in that situation so it could become it's own water supply...)

    Mother nature is awful big. And we're awful small in comparison, so don't be intimidated about how to supply 2000gpm pumps.

    Let's take a brook -- maybe it averages a couple feet deep and 10' wide. That's a "cross section" of 20 sq. feet. Drop a fishing bobber in...you record it floats down the brook 20' in a minute. 20sq. ft. cross section x 20' linear travel/minute = 400 cu. ft./minute 400*7.5 = 3000gpm going by each minute. That's not a particulary big brook or fast flowing. My guess is most brooks in my town are flowing twice as fast most of the time, a lot faster during the spring.

    Maybe your limited to 1500 or 2000gpm from a stream that size...unless you have a small dam on it, then you could easily be pulling 3000gpm on it without dropping the pond.

    ---------------<br />1' deep, 4' wide, 20'/minute flow = 600gpm from a what is a very small, slow stream. Might need to get creative -- like using a salvage covers and a ladder to improvise a small dam to create a pool you can draft from. Fortunately with our current truck, we have enough hose to bypass these little sources usually. Back when I joined at we had only 3000' of 3.5", those little streams could be the cat's meow to get you 350gpm to the fireground.

    --------<br />BTW, for those of you trying to imagine 20'/minute as a speed, it's about 1/4 of a mile per hour...

    For lots of detail on estimating stream volume flows, see <a href="http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/streamflow/estimat.htm" target="_blank">http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/streamflow/estimat.htm</a>
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  13. #13
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    pa
    Posts
    1

    Post

    oue dept has had a 2000 gpm since 1978. we are a rural dept and our hydrant system is poor. we are fortunate to have a small lake in the center of our town so we carry 2500 feet of 5" hose on our supply pummper and we purchased an alf 2000gpm last year for an attack piece it carry's 2600 feet of 5". we always plan on using 2 intakes so we position the piece accordingly of course it not always works out but most ties we can work it out . we also have 50 feet of hard sleeve we carry on the supply truck and 40 feet on the attack.that way we can reach around the truck from either side. my email is firefighterdude_10@yahoo.com if you would like to write me

  14. #14
    Banned

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    110

    Post

    .....If your pumping that much water from your pumpers, you've lost the building folks. Now you're wasting water.

    Right on! You shouln't even respond, let PD take over and rope off the area till it is over.

    <br />....All machines are prone to failure. Don't put all your eggs in one 2000 gpm pumper, unless the hose bed is large enough to carry caskets.

    Yeah that is why cities with 2000 gpm pumpers like LA, Syracues, St Louis, Houston, always buy extra large casket sised hose beds because everytime they use the big pumps all the guys die.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    157

    Post

    "If your pumping that much water from your pumpers, you've lost the building folks. Now you're wasting water. "

    What building? Sure if it was a single family residence, it would probably be pretty far gone to need 2000gpm. But is that all you have in your town?

    And is the original fire building all we are worried about? I recently responded mutual aid to a fire that started in a single family dwelling. The department hadn't secured a water supply, so the fire spread to a nearby mill complex. Too bad they couldn't supply 2000gpm to knock that out, because the fire ended up taking the whole block.

    So who needs 2000gpm? Maybe the reason everybody says that is because they have never been able to flow enough water at the big fires, so they always loose them.

    "If it has gone beyond that, your water should be directed to the crews inside, not the useless sprinkler heads. I can't wait to meet the guy you try pumping 2000 gpm to."

    I'll speak for myself, but I don't any of us were thinking of sending the 2000gpm to a couple of interior handlines.

    "All machines are prone to failure. Don't put all your eggs in one 2000 gpm pumper, unless the hose bed is large enough to carry caskets."

    So let's see...You have a fire requiring 2000gpm. You are using 2 1000gpm engines, and one fails. What is going to happen to the fire?

    Now, you have 2 2000gpm pumpers each delivering 1000gpm, and one fails. Can't you still deliver 2000gpm?

    As far as the hose bed comment goes, I hope that your hose beds are big enough to carry a casket. Otherwise they probably don't carry enough big hose.

    <br />FGN - One question: What is wrong with carrying 1500' of 5" on a 1000gpm pumper? Can't it still flow 1000gpm?

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Post

    Do you carry more LDH on your unit than your unit can pump? Such as 1500' on a 1000gpm unit.

    HFD, gotta say I missed that one the first time around!



    That's our Engine-Tank 290. 1978 Int'l, with a 1000gpm pump and 1200 gallon tank. And 1500' of 5" hose.

    Not sure that's more hose than we can pump. Truck serves the village of West Wauregan and is about 1/4 mile from the Wauregan Mill complex.

    It's pre-plan role there is simple. Drop it's monitor, lay a 5" line, supply it from draft.

    Hydraulics are kinda simple. The hose is Angus Hi-Vol 5". 1000gpm pump @ 150psi can deliver 1000gpm @ 100psi to the monitor up to 1500' away. One driver, one guy on the deck gun, we're delivering 1000gpm as the second line on the fire. Would be a bit slicker if we replaced the traditional suction with flexible suction, but it'll make do.

    BTW, if you drop your pressure at the end to 20psi, you could pump the capacity of 1000gpm through 3800' of that hose.

    Not quite sure how 1500' of 5" is too much for a 1000gpm pump to pump if it can supply a deck gun at the end.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  17. #17
    Banned

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    110

    Post

    You sure got a lot of foam around your pumper.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Post

    Hehehe...

    And we weren't even using a CAFS line on the ladder pipe that day...
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  19. #19
    Member

    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    South Central Pennsylvania
    Posts
    47

    Cool

    Some good comments and some I thnk are total bull****! This is the year 2002. Some of you mistook what I said about to much hose and not enough pump. I have always been taught that the industry standard on friction loss for 5" hose is 8psi per 100' at 1000gpm. If this is wrong please tell me so. Both the department where I work and the department where I volunteer train/operate that when pumping to someone else they should recieve 50psi minimum incomming pressure. This is also the standard that MFRI teaches in Pro Board Apparatus Operator Pumper Class. Now lets figure it out guys. 8psi per hundred feet at 1500 feet is 120psi. Plus 50psi is 170psi. Maybe your hose does better than 8psi per hundred or maybe the lay is down hill. If you pump higher that 150psi then your reducing the capasity. Alot of factors play into this like the amount of lift, size & length of sleeves in use, location, and so much more. What if all 1500 feet is up hill. Don't get me wrong here. If I am the OIC and something is on fire and you pull in with this set up you will lay hose and pump water. For many years my first department carried and used gas powered portable pumps to fill tankers. I am still a believer in the portable pump and with the 500+ GPM pumps out there now they can do a hell of a job. When something is burning and your out of water 500GPM can seem like alot. As for this big pump thing and burning buildings down if your not putting enough water on any fire your just going through the motions no matter how big or small the building envolved. I have seem aot of basements (foundations) saved in my time in the fire service. I have also seen alot of great stops made. One of the biggest rural water supply fires nation wide was just a few years ago in my neighboring county of Lancaster PA. When the Sight & Sound Theater burned they layed alot of 5" to surrounding static water sources and also established two tanker shuttles at the same time. If I recall, once set up they maintained around 3000gpm for the duration of the fire attack and suspression. Not bad for rural water supply huh. They did save some of the building and it's contents. Just like everything else in the fire service you gotta gear your operation around your call requirements and your area. You have to train all your personnel with the equipment that you have. You must know the resources that are available to you. Lastly you can be affraid of change or trying new things. This is where most departments drop the ball. I have argued many times with others about small trivial things. Now that I do some teaching/instructing I am not affraid to should people who still don't believe things they are told or read about. I am not trying to come off as a smart *** or to teach anyone how to do pump operations. I am just making a few points. IF we all had endless funds we would all have things that we really don't need. The main thing is knowing how to make the most with what you do have and doing it safely. Until next time. Be safe and take care. FGN. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Post

    I have always been taught that the industry standard on friction loss for 5" hose is 8psi per 100' at 1000gpm.<br />8psi per 100' is the FL listed in friction charts typically found in fire service books. But there's a big caveat there -- they're prepared for rubber-lined hose.

    However, most manufacturers now offer hose far better in performance than the the 70s or earlier when those charts where made. Two major improvements -- one, slipperier liners than rubber that reduce friction loss. Second, some hose expands under pressure -- Angus Hi-Vol 4" goes to 4.2" and 5" to 5.2". The lower friction on the inside of the Hi-Vol plus it's "expansion" results in a manufacturer rating of 3.4psi per 100' @ 1000gpm.

    The charts are way too conservative if you have good fire hose today; the manufacturers numbers I usually use are probably a bit optimistic. But I'd still look at mfg's numbers when spec'ing new hose, and lay out the hose you have and see what it's actual friction loss is. BTW, if the FL is a lot higher than you expected, you may have problems with damaged liners in the hose.

    As the examples above shows, there's can be a dramatic difference between 5" on the charts, and 5" in the field.

    train/operate that when pumping to someone else they should recieve 50psi minimum incomming pressure.<br />I've always been taught 20psi in state courses, and I usually use that number when doing calculations.

    I believe the reason for 20 or 50psi is to give the pump operator time to react if your depending on an incoming line to supply the pump which in turn is supplying interior lines.

    In practice in my department, if we need every last drop -- which would be for master stream & outside handline ops -- we'll get the laid line operation stabilized so we're getting 20psi consistently, then the pump op on the attack side can draw the incoming pressure down to 5 or 10psi to get more water out. Keeps him hopping to watch his intake pressures and discharges -- but like I said, these very low pressures are used on external ops where fluctations aren't as critical, and we have a 1200 gallon tank on the truck to buffer water supply issues if neccessary.

    Alot of factors play into this like the amount of lift, size & length of sleeves in use, location, and so much more.<br />Yes siree!

    What if all 1500 feet is up hill.<br />Good question.

    Let's assume you've laid down a very steep hill with a 12% grade -- that's probably as bad as you'll see unless you commit 30 or so firefighters to handjacking the 1500'! For comparison purposes, modern highway engineers try to keep highways to 6% grades with a maximum of 8%; and residential secondary roads to a maximum of 12%.

    That'll give you an elevation change of 180', working out to a elevation loss of 78psi. That's still enough with the Hi-vol 5" you should be able to deliver 20psi at a 1000gpm or real close to it for another pumper to use.

    Lastly you can be affraid of change or trying new things.<br />And that's the key!

    There's a lot of lore in the fire service that seriously understates what can be moved for water. Some of it was never true, some was true thirty or sixty years ago but not neccessarily today. Do the math, practice in the field. We can move a lot more than a lot of people think.

    Matt <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register