Got a simple question. Our 911 center has a problem dipatching fire on motor vehicle accidents with injuries. They send the police to check the scene first and then decide on the fire response. Who carries the liability on this occasion, the 911 center or the officer that responds.
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Thread: Dipatch on fire calls
12-09-1999, 11:06 PM #1HennyFirehouse.com Guest
Dipatch on fire calls
12-10-1999, 01:11 AM #2mtfd38Firehouse.com Guest
we are seperate from the cops, so they notify us and we decide if we are going to respond or not, the liability is on the fire dept. unless the cops are trained in ems, they have no way in knowing if anyone is injured nad i have yet to see a cop use his flashlight or gun to extricate someone from a car.
12-10-1999, 10:12 AM #3Michael ArmstrongFirehouse.com Guest
We automatically send 2 units. 1 for fire control and 1 for patient care. Our police have no medical training so we cannot cancel even if they report no injuries. The liability is all ours.
12-11-1999, 01:37 AM #4dc45bFirehouse.com Guest
The fire dept.leadership should sit with the dispatch center and come up with a automatic dispatch for auto accidents. In my area for a auto accident we send 1 engine, 1 ambulance. If the road is 55 mph, we then add a heavy rescue squad and 1 medic unit. You have a certain amount of time for people with injuries to get to a hospital or trauma center. This way you know what is coming on every call. If you need more equipment then call for it. Come on people get with the program.
12-15-1999, 11:07 AM #5deanfFirehouse.com Guest
This brings up another question. How many are forced to send fire and/or EMS to "unknown if injury" accidents?
Member, IAFF Local 2024
12-15-1999, 11:42 AM #6mtnfireguyFirehouse.com Guest
Its a matter of protocol. This needs to be established by the all agencies involved. In most cases the cops have told dispatch they dont want fire/ems responding until they confirm there are injuries. As others have said, most cops do not have the appropriate training. Fire/Rescue/EMS should be send to all confirmed injury crashes and on all unknown. There is an argument about sending to unknowns.. Lets not forget the Golden hour folks. Its far better to have the equipment rolling and not need it. Thats why we put radios in them. In addition to injuries, cops and even some ems folks tend to forget about other hazards - fuel leaks, antifreeze leak, hazmat, etc.
As for the liability issue... in this day and age everyone will be liable
12-15-1999, 11:20 PM #7deanfFirehouse.com Guest
Far better to have resources rolling to emergencies that we can confirm, or waiting in the station to send to emergencies that we can confirm, as opposed to sending everyone to everything.
Member, IAFF Local 2024
12-17-1999, 12:10 AM #8pompanofdFirehouse.com Guest
JUST HAVE YOUR FIRE ADMIN. SEND MEMO UP TO DISPATCH STATING THAT UNDER NEW SOP'S FIRE WILL RESPOND TO ALL ACCIDENTS , P.D. CAN CANCEL WHEN ON SCENE IF NO INJURIES OR NO HAZARDS........MIKE G.
12-17-1999, 03:52 AM #9cf1Firehouse.com Guest
We are dispatched by a Sheriffs Office.
We have SO MUCH trouble with the dispatchers that it is un-believable. When you are working with a 1000 square mile parish, it is almost impossible to maintain quick response, anyway. Our dispatchers will wait for a Deputy to get on scene and let them make the call whether or not they need the Jaws. Our dispatchers plain-out REFUSE to alert the FD intially on MVA's with known injuries or unknown injuries, and it is a set policy within the Sheriffs Office that on all MVA's the FD is to be alerted as soon as call is received, but the dispatchers plain-out REFUSE to dispatch us, resulting in 25-35 minute response time after the MVA occurs. Keep in mind that half of the dispatchers are paid by the FD, but they are all deputies and are controlled by the Sheriffs Office, so we have no governing authority, and cannot afford to establish our own dispatch center.
12-18-1999, 11:03 AM #10deanfFirehouse.com Guest
Isn't politics great?
Member, IAFF Local 2024
12-19-1999, 12:31 AM #11Rich McCaneFirehouse.com Guest
It is our policy to send PD/FD/EMS on all MVA calls that are advising unknown or confirmed injury and all MVA's on the expressway and the first FD/EMS unit on the scene decides who gets continued or disregarded.
[This message has been edited by Rich McCane (edited December 18, 1999).]
12-20-1999, 10:14 PM #12Lieutenant GonzoFirehouse.com Guest
We send an Engine Company and the Rescue Company to all reported MVA's. If the first arriving Police units state that there are no injuries, we continue the first due piece to the scene to confirm that there are no injuries and to get patient refusals from the parties involved.
Take care and be safe...Lt. Gonzo
12-26-1999, 02:01 PM #13Rick BondFirehouse.com Guest
Lets look at the big picture. WHO has liability for what. I've seen this problem from all sides. Im a cop, working in the office with certifications as a firefighter/emt. Most of the time it's not the dispatchers fault. It's politics. Those above either don't know or have been envolved in the politics for so long have fogotten what goes on in the field. It has been my feeling that you can take the smallest scene and turn it into a giant circus real fast by sending more help than you need. On the other side, LIABILITY states that the police work the crash, fire works the extrication/hazmat and ems works the patient. The last thing that we need is for someone that is unqualified to make a decision that is wrong. I don't know about you but I'm not an expert in all areas. Our administrators must understand that in many situations time is against us and our customers that we serve. And for thoughs of you that have never done it, take some time to get to know your dispatchers and the job they do. Just like thoughs in the field they have a very difficult job to do, and alot of time get stuck between a rock and a hard spot when it comes to politics.
THESE THING WE DO SO OTHERS MAY LIVE!
12-26-1999, 11:55 PM #14MsEMTFirehouse.com Guest
As a former Police/Fire/Rescue Dispatcher who was paid by the Police Dept. (and was continually reminded that my function was a police dispatcher and the rest was a courtesy to the town.......) imagine what I went thru when I got the call for a motor vehicle accident...unknown on injuries... By the way, I am also an EMT on a volunteer fire dept. for the same town that I dispatched in....Same scenario.....police wanted to confirm injuries first before rolling fire & rescue apparatus...and I totally DISAGREED. When your fire depts. are all volunteer....there is no way of knowing they will even get out until you dispatch them. And you are absolutely right.....police are not trained to make medical decisions....great topic for discussion! The issue needs to be addressed in many communities. THANK YOU!
12-28-1999, 09:42 AM #15Ladder66Firehouse.com Guest
As an experienced dispatcher, and firefighter/EMT, I can see both sides of the fence - the political side & logical side. My position is that it is always better to "dispatch and disregard", than never to have dispatched at all.
If I receive a report (usually multiple reports) of an MVA and get the slightest gut-feeling that its gonna be a real cruncher, or someone reports an injury, I send the fire company. Period. I'd rather have them rolling to the scene, rather than wait 3-5 minutes for an officer to arrive and request for the fire company. Now, my actions have saved time, which is great. But on the converse, I've been burned, and have turned minor accidents into parades. The "brass", both police and fire, know from previous experience that I will fiercely defend my decision. I've been a dispatcher and firefighter for ten years, so I feel that I'm more than qualified to make my decision - all based on experience, knowledge of my territory (and accident prone intersections), and my time on the same streets as a firefighter. That's only my position...
Henny, to honestly answer your question, I think everyone could ultimately be considered liable. But then again, I'm not a lawyer. Do you have written policies that instruct you to only send an officer? If not, then get the PD to put it in writing. Otherwise, I think you're an open target.
Keep it safe & my wishes to all the dispatchers for a New Year void of Friday nights with full moons!!
[This message has been edited by Ladder66 (edited December 28, 1999).]
12-28-1999, 12:35 PM #16Chief *Firehouse.com Guest
it is our policy to send fire\police\ems to all mva's that are reported with injuries or reported unknown injuries. if the caller reports no injuries then we send just police and usually the fire department for traffic control if the vehicles are in the roadway. alot of our calls come through cell phones and if the caller is still on the scene we always ask the caller to ask the victims of the accident if they are injured and if they request ems. hope that helps
12-29-1999, 06:22 PM #17KyleFirehouse.com Guest
Our dispatch calls the PD first and then turns around and calls the Fire/Rescue. The only problem is that they won't say if there is multiple vehicles or entrapment involved even if the caller tells them this information. Not all the dispatchers are that way but there are a few like that and when they are working and we have a call, we don't know what to expect until we get there to find out.
08-27-2006, 12:32 AM #18
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Abington, Massachusetts, USA
Fire to MVA
Our dispatch is sepreate from the police department dispatch. This is something very uncommon in the area. Police notify fire for every MVA regardless of PI. If there is no PI on the scene the individual can refuse treatment.
08-27-2006, 10:27 AM #19
This is something that needs to be discussed with your local dispatch. We are dispatched to everything fire and health related in our district. We make the call on what is needed for resources.
08-28-2006, 07:52 AM #20
This thread was posted... and died... 7 years ago, I'm sure he's found his answer...
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