06-23-2000, 10:35 PM #26Engine58Firehouse.com Guest
MY EMS squad lets cadets be on the first rig out. Usually its 2 EMTS, 1 BASIC EMS CERTIFIED Member and a CAdet...But if we are in need of a 3rd man its 2 Emts 1 Cadet...So basically we are able to ride 3rd man out on a rig...Which really doesnt matter because 3rd man out usually has the same qualifacations as a regular Member.Also some cadets are EMT's which is good.
South Amboy, New Jersey
Junior EMS Responder
"EMTS DON'T DIE THEY JUST STABILIZE"
06-26-2000, 01:13 AM #27Firefighter2197Firehouse.com Guest
i understand your plight
even know as a probie i can still get bumped if a senisor ff shows up
I also have to ask the on duty captian and or the on duty battlion cheif if i can ride
I am usually on the first in compnay e21 or e212 or e213
depends on which station i am at.
also it helps that my dad is a assn cheif
so i respond with him
if your dept allows it jr are a great thing because they can do any number of things
direct traffic ( even though i hated doing it) sorry guys or loying hose or changeing bottles
keep it safe and have fun
06-27-2000, 04:40 PM #28WLFire65Firehouse.com Guest
06-27-2000, 11:38 PM #29OrenTaz69Firehouse.com Guest
as a cadet for four years i saw plenty of times were a junior member was bump off a truck we had a understanding that cadets could ride as 3rd man if no ff were present if a ff was present cadets then could ride with th battilion car or wait for a empty seat on the next truck our eeparment didn't get trucks that carried more than threee until i got on as a ff then the policy was 3 ff to 1 cadet and we had no problems with this system or at anytime if a cadet refused to give up his seat to a ff he was automatically removed from the program and none of the other programs in the area would allow them in either
07-02-2000, 05:46 PM #30Aaron NeelyFirehouse.com Guest
In my volunteer company back home, when I first joined as a probie, we could be bumped as so many have stated before in this thread. Personally I feel if there is an empty seat in a piece of apparatus, then a probie should be able to fill in, but if there are SR members then they should respond on all apparatus until there is an opening on a piece for a probie, otherwise the probies should be on a Utility truck, or some other piece of that sort.
It's nothing personal towards the probies or anything, but if there is someone more qualified to respond, then they should go! After all there are lives on the line here and that should be left to people with the most experience.
Riding the apparatus is great for probies to do to get some of the experience they need, but the sr members still have priority because they already have the experience. Lets face it though people, it's not like you're never going to ride the equipment, especially on peak times like during the day when alot of people are at work.
Dyess AFB Fire Dept
07-03-2000, 01:11 AM #31AnimalFirehouse.com Guest
I never have a problem with a probie riding on my rig unless I've got 3 other senior members, then they get bumped. But If I've got an empty seat, I'll fill it with a Jr rather than leave it empty. Gives me an extra set of hands, and it gives them experience, as well as a morale booster. One thing we have to remember is that if these Jrs are going to stick with the department and continue on as senior members, then we have to keep them interested, keep the group morale high, and let them do as much as they can.
Just my $.02
07-03-2000, 07:41 PM #32Jr_ AssistChiefFirehouse.com Guest
This is a tough subject, especially for jr. members who want to do everything. I've been around firefighting all my life and now as a junior member in two companies in two towns, I've come to respect the fact that senior members need to be on scene first. I've seen incidents go bad really quickly without senior officers and it doesn't help. We need our experience a lot, but fire fighting comes first. If there's a spot on the truck and no senior officers around as it rools out of the station, take it. If there's no room left accept it and wait for the next truck out.
07-04-2000, 10:26 AM #33hazmat112Firehouse.com Guest
Cadets do not belong on first due apparatus, They do not have the proper training to be riding that first due equipment....If it was YOUR house burning would you want to see someone who is fully dressed out standing in your front yard waiting for a senior firefighter to go with them?
The state of Ohio reqiures a high school diploma, a valid drivers license and ,( I beleive 18 years of age). Is it really fair of us to expect them to do the job that they are not even allowed by the state to be minimally trained to do?
I was a cadet for four years (14-18) then became a Vol. then part-time, now I'm a career Firefighter/Paramedic so I have seen all sides of this issue and i certainly am not here to "bash" cadet firefighters.
We all learn something on every fireground, but the fireground should not be a classroom.
Cadets on the second due companies (and later) are a great idea, they can assist with exterior fire suppression efforts, change air bottles, assist with rehab, all of which are vital functions.
Cadets can be a valuable asset to a Fire Department as long as we teach them, and keep them out of harm's way.
07-04-2000, 10:53 AM #34F02Firehouse.com Guest
Wait a minute,lets go back.
"The reason were not allowed on the first truck out is because we have no insurance on the cadets but that does'nt stop us from from being on the first truck out" ?????
Who's in charge here? NO insurance? NONE at all? How can they be allowed to respond to anywhere in anything? Are we getting the whole story here?
07-04-2000, 11:09 AM #35Troy HaskettFirehouse.com Guest
I have to agree with Hazmat 112, I started out as a cadet myself, and when you say cadet I think of a high school student(14-18) that is trying to get a "feel" of the fire and EMS service. If you are not of age (18) and you are jumping on the trucks and your not covered by insurance, you NEED to STOP & THINK! There can be accidents that can happen going to and from the run, this will put yourself and your department in a LOT of hot water! if you get hurt or killed, (GOD forbid). If you are covered under the insurance, then I don't think you need to be taking the place of a senior firefighter or having them wait and catch the next truck. I definatly don't think you need to be at the scene and not be able to go in with anouther person. When I was a cadet, there was NO entry for me, and you need to fully understand the constant changes that go on during a fire, that you may only have about 5 seconds to react, like a flashover that you don't recognize is going to happen. The next thing you need to know, are you covered by insurance on a fire ground incase you trip, fall, something hits you, you get cut, etc...for the senoir firefighters I know they are, and without a doubt for career....
Just somethings to think about, not to make anyone mad, but lets think public safety and our own safety.
07-04-2000, 01:26 PM #36crashdawgFirehouse.com Guest
No, cadets have no need to be on the 1st out for the sole fact that a 15-17 teenager does not know more about firefighting than a 5-10 year veteran. Be patient learn your job. There is more to fire than running to the house and being the 1st one on the engine.
07-04-2000, 02:06 PM #37CHFD126Firehouse.com Guest
I started as an Explorer about 8 years ago. The dept's policy was that we were not to take a seat in place of a senior member. If the truck was on the apron, and a senior member showed, we got off and waited for the next piece. There's a lot to be done aside from the interior work, in the case of a structure fire. Someone needs to hit the hydrant, help hook up, throw ground ladders, even start accountability w/ the IC. We all know what it's like running light to a job, and if there's an extra set of hands, that's good for everyone. As long as that set junior member isn't taking the place of a senior member.
07-06-2000, 10:59 PM #38scafd417Firehouse.com Guest
Well, It depends. At our Department the Explorers are allowed to ride on the first out truck unless
1. It is Mutual Aid
2. A Fire firefigher bumpes them.
If is a good enough call they can always get on a 2nd or 3rd out truck.
With low staffing during the day they always find there way out to the scene. The only new twist that came down recently was that the driver has to take responsiblity for them If the driver does nt want the responsibilty then they have to wait for a driver that will.
Lt. David J. Plumb
Swartz Creek Area Fire Department MI
Lead Advisor Post 41
07-07-2000, 04:36 AM #39Brian DunlapFirehouse.com Guest
scafd417....Thats the way it should be !! Great Policy and excellant rules to govern by !
07-07-2000, 04:29 PM #40holton_explorerFirehouse.com Guest
With our department, since it's so small I get to respond on the first truck only if an advisor is there on the truck, and every body else just responds on the other trucks.
Holton Fire Department
07-07-2000, 06:09 PM #41scafd417Firehouse.com Guest
I really wish I had read all the comments before I left my opinion. If a first out engine which can carry 6 personnel is rolling out of the station on a structure fire or any call for that matter, and it only has 3-4 FF's on the truck..... Why not let them get on?? They can do A LOT on the fire ground. I have a very well trained group, in the group I head up, Most have PUT THEMSELVES threw the fire academy, Heck some of the explorers are more trained and have more knowledge of the equipment then some of my FF's. They are eager to learn!!! Mine cant go uless they have done 6 months (24 hrs) of training. It's been said by some of you the fire ground is not the place to learn???? What!!!! The fire scene is a learning experience for us all. The fire does what it wants to do. "The Classroom" Sure it teaches the basics but come on we all know this is not where the TRUE EDUCATION comes from. These kids are "there", you say "get a PP Fan" they do it, You say "hit the hydrant" they do it. As long as they do not take the place of a firefighter there is no reason why they should not be on the first out truck. THAT'S HOW THEY LEARN
[This message has been edited by scafd417 (edited July 07, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by scafd417 (edited July 07, 2000).]
07-07-2000, 09:51 PM #42jrfemaleffFirehouse.com Guest
First let me start off by telling you that I am a Jr. Firefighter in Pennsylvania. I DO NOT belive that Jr. Firefighters belong on the first due unit. Yes, there are many useful things that they can be, and most of the time are, responsible for on the fire scene, but, i don't think that there is any reason for us to be on the first unit. If the first out engine can carry 6 personnel, as ours does, you have a driver, and an officer which ammounts to two fully trained firefighters, and if the rest of your crew is made up of Jr's you're not going to get very far with the fire suppression. All I am saying is that I do not believe that we should be on first truck and that while we are still Jr's, we can wait till the next truck. Although riding on the truck to the fire scene is a very important part of the learning that will take place, There will always be time for us to play where the devil dances after we have all the training we need. If anyone wishes to make a comment to me about my opinion ar anything else, please don't hesitate to mail me. Thanks.
Montgomery County Station 74
07-11-2000, 08:57 PM #43Nozzleman 84Firehouse.com Guest
My opinion is that explorers should be able to ride on first out apparatus. Of course there are acceptions to the rule, If the engine captain or direct supervisor feels that the type of call isn't safe for an explorer, or if there are ample firefighters to respond on the apparatus, the explorer should be booted off. On the other hand, if explorers are trained well they can preform some of the dutys that the profesional firefighters do, thus assisting the crews responding with extra man power.
07-23-2000, 01:21 AM #44Wally57fireFirehouse.com Guest
Im a junior and i live right across the street from our first station we respond on truck mainly out of this station the second a brush truck never responds to alot of the small mva's our dept. gets. We have 2 juniors and we each respond to diffrent stations. normally beat all the other members to the station and i wait about 3 minutes for the Lt. to arrive from down the street i always start with a spot on the truck but i get moved around quickly and can get bumped off. It is the priority type system we cant take the spot of an active member and our truck can only hold 3 men in the cab and jrs are not allowed to ride the "jump seats" so i feel that jrs should have a spot like me were we can be pushed off for more experinced members. We are allowed to respond in our personal vehicles, or we can wait at the station and recive credit for response to the call.
09-18-2000, 08:59 PM #45nfd20Firehouse.com Guest
i think that if theres room, you ride..no easier way to say it!
09-29-2000, 01:03 AM #46NFPDcadetFirehouse.com Guest
In my department we dont wait on anyone....
We have 2 paid firefighters per shift and a staff of 11... I really only run calls when Im up there on shift so I always am on the first truck out...... I havent been bumped off yet because they all know I take what I do and how I perform seriously.... But sometimes it depends what shift Im on because some of them dont like me. For the most part though, Im first crew on scene....
Cadet Vol. Adam Spencer
Nixa Fire Protection Dis.
Nixa, MO 65721
10-06-2000, 08:54 AM #47NJOUTLAW6Firehouse.com Guest
Well in our company we are only allowed to send one cadet to the scene with the truck, becuase they need the room for the reg members. When no one is comes to the firehouse to respond to the call then more cadets are sent to the scene to help with the Efforts.
South Amboy Fire Dept.
"WHO LET THE DOGS OUT OF STATION 6??"
[This message has been edited by NJOUTLAW6 (edited October 06, 2000).]
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