1. #21
    Bob Snyder
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    FirefighterReed said:

    "All that matters to you older fire fighters is that you've already paid your dues and don't want to see jrs. jump to the front of the line without paying their dues. I agree totally with that."

    First, "paying dues" isn't the point. Second, if it were the point, then I don't agree with that at all. Let me re-post part of what I offered earlier in this thread:

    > It's important for juniors to understand that the issue is one of the effectiveness of the apparatus leaving the station. It's not just about "seniority" or "a game of numbers"...at least, it shouldn't be...this isn't personal...Remember that the restrictions that are in place are there for your protection. Your main job is to learn as much as you can.

    The long and short of it is that, at least in PA, I'd be taking an immense legal and financial risk, both personally and on behalf of the fire company, if I left the station with a rig full of juniors (who are legally restricted in what they can do out there) and wasn't effective on the scene, or if I violated the legal restrictions on Juniors' activities on the fireground. This is to say nothing of the risks of sending only partially trained people in to do front line jobs. I really don't care about who pays dues and who doesn't...I care about my responsibilities as an officer. Period.

  2. #22
    jrMFD57
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    i think that senior ff's should be able to bump juniors off the first out truck.

  3. #23
    11BrynAthyn355
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    At our department, our first out truck holds 10 people. Driver/Officer, 2 hydrant people (Juniors usually), and 6 Airpack qualified personnel. Depending on time of day/year, what type of incident, # of apparatus, etc., we don't usually have problems. Yes they should be allowed to be on the first out truck. Also, we only have 3 JR's on our company.

    ------------------
    -Rick R.
    -Bryn Athyn Fire Company and Ambulance
    -Station 11 and Squad 355 in Montgomery County, Pa
    -http://mov.to/BAFC

  4. #24
    11BrynAthyn355
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    At our department, our first out truck holds 10 people. Driver/Officer, 2 hydrant people (Juniors usually), and 6 Airpack qualified personnel. Depending on time of day/year, what type of incident, # of apparatus, etc., we don't usually have problems. Yes they should be allowed to be on the first out truck. Also, we only have 3 JR's on our company.

    ------------------
    -Rick R.
    -Bryn Athyn Fire Company and Ambulance
    -Station 11 and Squad 355 in Montgomery County, Pa
    -http://mov.to/BAFC

  5. #25
    E229Lt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    NO

  6. #26
    Engine58
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    MY EMS squad lets cadets be on the first rig out. Usually its 2 EMTS, 1 BASIC EMS CERTIFIED Member and a CAdet...But if we are in need of a 3rd man its 2 Emts 1 Cadet...So basically we are able to ride 3rd man out on a rig...Which really doesnt matter because 3rd man out usually has the same qualifacations as a regular Member.Also some cadets are EMT's which is good.

    ------------------
    Andrew
    South Amboy, New Jersey
    Junior EMS Responder
    "EMTS DON'T DIE THEY JUST STABILIZE"

  7. #27
    Firefighter2197
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    i understand your plight
    even know as a probie i can still get bumped if a senisor ff shows up
    I also have to ask the on duty captian and or the on duty battlion cheif if i can ride
    I am usually on the first in compnay e21 or e212 or e213
    depends on which station i am at.
    also it helps that my dad is a assn cheif
    so i respond with him
    if your dept allows it jr are a great thing because they can do any number of things
    direct traffic ( even though i hated doing it) sorry guys or loying hose or changeing bottles
    2197
    keep it safe and have fun

  8. #28
    WLFire65
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    YES

  9. #29
    OrenTaz69
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    as a cadet for four years i saw plenty of times were a junior member was bump off a truck we had a understanding that cadets could ride as 3rd man if no ff were present if a ff was present cadets then could ride with th battilion car or wait for a empty seat on the next truck our eeparment didn't get trucks that carried more than threee until i got on as a ff then the policy was 3 ff to 1 cadet and we had no problems with this system or at anytime if a cadet refused to give up his seat to a ff he was automatically removed from the program and none of the other programs in the area would allow them in either

  10. #30
    Aaron Neely
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    In my volunteer company back home, when I first joined as a probie, we could be bumped as so many have stated before in this thread. Personally I feel if there is an empty seat in a piece of apparatus, then a probie should be able to fill in, but if there are SR members then they should respond on all apparatus until there is an opening on a piece for a probie, otherwise the probies should be on a Utility truck, or some other piece of that sort.
    It's nothing personal towards the probies or anything, but if there is someone more qualified to respond, then they should go! After all there are lives on the line here and that should be left to people with the most experience.
    Riding the apparatus is great for probies to do to get some of the experience they need, but the sr members still have priority because they already have the experience. Lets face it though people, it's not like you're never going to ride the equipment, especially on peak times like during the day when alot of people are at work.

    ------------------
    Aaron Neely
    Dyess AFB Fire Dept
    Abilene, TX

  11. #31
    Animal
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I never have a problem with a probie riding on my rig unless I've got 3 other senior members, then they get bumped. But If I've got an empty seat, I'll fill it with a Jr rather than leave it empty. Gives me an extra set of hands, and it gives them experience, as well as a morale booster. One thing we have to remember is that if these Jrs are going to stick with the department and continue on as senior members, then we have to keep them interested, keep the group morale high, and let them do as much as they can.

    Just my $.02

    Lt. Animal

  12. #32
    Jr_ AssistChief
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    This is a tough subject, especially for jr. members who want to do everything. I've been around firefighting all my life and now as a junior member in two companies in two towns, I've come to respect the fact that senior members need to be on scene first. I've seen incidents go bad really quickly without senior officers and it doesn't help. We need our experience a lot, but fire fighting comes first. If there's a spot on the truck and no senior officers around as it rools out of the station, take it. If there's no room left accept it and wait for the next truck out.

  13. #33
    hazmat112
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Cadets do not belong on first due apparatus, They do not have the proper training to be riding that first due equipment....If it was YOUR house burning would you want to see someone who is fully dressed out standing in your front yard waiting for a senior firefighter to go with them?
    The state of Ohio reqiures a high school diploma, a valid drivers license and ,( I beleive 18 years of age). Is it really fair of us to expect them to do the job that they are not even allowed by the state to be minimally trained to do?
    I was a cadet for four years (14-18) then became a Vol. then part-time, now I'm a career Firefighter/Paramedic so I have seen all sides of this issue and i certainly am not here to "bash" cadet firefighters.
    We all learn something on every fireground, but the fireground should not be a classroom.
    Cadets on the second due companies (and later) are a great idea, they can assist with exterior fire suppression efforts, change air bottles, assist with rehab, all of which are vital functions.
    Cadets can be a valuable asset to a Fire Department as long as we teach them, and keep them out of harm's way.

  14. #34
    F02
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    Wait a minute,lets go back.
    "The reason were not allowed on the first truck out is because we have no insurance on the cadets but that does'nt stop us from from being on the first truck out" ?????
    Who's in charge here? NO insurance? NONE at all? How can they be allowed to respond to anywhere in anything? Are we getting the whole story here?

  15. #35
    Troy Haskett
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    I have to agree with Hazmat 112, I started out as a cadet myself, and when you say cadet I think of a high school student(14-18) that is trying to get a "feel" of the fire and EMS service. If you are not of age (18) and you are jumping on the trucks and your not covered by insurance, you NEED to STOP & THINK! There can be accidents that can happen going to and from the run, this will put yourself and your department in a LOT of hot water! if you get hurt or killed, (GOD forbid). If you are covered under the insurance, then I don't think you need to be taking the place of a senior firefighter or having them wait and catch the next truck. I definatly don't think you need to be at the scene and not be able to go in with anouther person. When I was a cadet, there was NO entry for me, and you need to fully understand the constant changes that go on during a fire, that you may only have about 5 seconds to react, like a flashover that you don't recognize is going to happen. The next thing you need to know, are you covered by insurance on a fire ground incase you trip, fall, something hits you, you get cut, etc...for the senoir firefighters I know they are, and without a doubt for career....
    Just somethings to think about, not to make anyone mad, but lets think public safety and our own safety.

    Troy

  16. #36
    crashdawg
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    No, cadets have no need to be on the 1st out for the sole fact that a 15-17 teenager does not know more about firefighting than a 5-10 year veteran. Be patient learn your job. There is more to fire than running to the house and being the 1st one on the engine.

  17. #37
    CHFD126
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I started as an Explorer about 8 years ago. The dept's policy was that we were not to take a seat in place of a senior member. If the truck was on the apron, and a senior member showed, we got off and waited for the next piece. There's a lot to be done aside from the interior work, in the case of a structure fire. Someone needs to hit the hydrant, help hook up, throw ground ladders, even start accountability w/ the IC. We all know what it's like running light to a job, and if there's an extra set of hands, that's good for everyone. As long as that set junior member isn't taking the place of a senior member.

  18. #38
    scafd417
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well, It depends. At our Department the Explorers are allowed to ride on the first out truck unless
    1. It is Mutual Aid
    or
    2. A Fire firefigher bumpes them.

    If is a good enough call they can always get on a 2nd or 3rd out truck.
    With low staffing during the day they always find there way out to the scene. The only new twist that came down recently was that the driver has to take responsiblity for them If the driver does nt want the responsibilty then they have to wait for a driver that will.

    Lt. David J. Plumb
    Swartz Creek Area Fire Department MI
    Lead Advisor Post 41

  19. #39
    Brian Dunlap
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    scafd417....Thats the way it should be !! Great Policy and excellant rules to govern by !

  20. #40
    holton_explorer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    With our department, since it's so small I get to respond on the first truck only if an advisor is there on the truck, and every body else just responds on the other trucks.

    ------------------
    Adam Pletcher
    Explorer
    Holton Fire Department

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