1. #1
    lebo_fire_635
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post should cadets/jr/explorers be on first truck out

    in our station our cadets are not supposed to be on the first truck out but the assistant chief and chief really dosen't care if we go or not matter of fact they prefer that we go just to get experience but one of the fire fighters are complaining. let me hear what you think

  2. #2
    FF.FOREVER
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    Well, I guess it all depends on the call and are you taking up space when a senior shows up. I'm my dept we only have 2 jr.ff's. So it's usally not a problem.

    1. What time of day is it? Do most of your senior have daytime jobs? Are you and the driver the only one at the station and you've given ample time for a senior member to show up?

    I'm my dept if we get a call the jr.ff has just as much right to ride as the senior,but if a senior shows up before the truck leaves the jr.ff gets bumped. Even if a driver and jr.ff role first due and it's a working fire the jr.ff can man a hoseline from outside the structure and put water on the fire until senior members can arrive.

    2. In the state of Maine jr.ff's do a lot of the grass and woods fires responses. So if your called to a grass fire then the jr.ff is just as valuable as a senior ff. By the way how many seats are there in your trucks? I guess is go to the chief of your dept. and get things straighten out with him.

    BE SAFE
    FF/EMT
    MIKE SIMMONS

  3. #3
    dc45b
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    In my station I will only allow one new member. We call them red hats because they have no experience. They have no taining. They can't go into a working fire. They can be outside helping out and my go inside after the OIC has declared it under control to do salvage work. When they finish emt and Firefighter I, they get a yellow helmet. I know that you want to help but the first string players need to be on the piece first. WHen you finish your training then it will be your turn.

    Mike
    Assistant Chief
    Marlboro VFD 20/45

  4. #4
    NRFR/explorer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    If there is room, why not?
    Joe
    1st Resp./explorer

  5. #5
    CV639
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    IN my station cadets can make a first out truck, but if a senior member shows up they can bump us. Also once we have passed our probation( 6 months) if a probie cadet or one with less seniority getts on the truck they can be bumped by us. So its all a game of numbers....Well I am getting out of here..See ya on the big one!!

  6. #6
    lebo_fire_635
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    the reason were not allowed on the first truck out is because we have no insurance on the cadets. but that dosent' stop us from being on the first truck out

  7. #7
    JR95
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    Well, before your next run I would check to see what the liability conditions are. If you are not insured by your FD, but are riding the apparatus, something seems wrong...

  8. #8
    engine1321
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    In my area, E's always make the first engine on when we're riding unless it's on the other side of town then we're on second-in company. I always ride the medic (more responses) so I go where it goes. Not too many structure responses but I have seen quite a few car fires and HAZMAT responses.

  9. #9
    wannabe-EMT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I think as long as we meet age and training requirements, we can ride on any piece in the appropriate position. 17 years old and you can run 3rd man on the medic, 5th on the engine, as I recall. There are only a few of us, of course, so we're pretty well integrated. But that also means I don't see a lot of us riding, just because of probability. We're department cadets, not BSA Explorers, by the way.

    Peace, and stay safe.

  10. #10
    Brian Dunlap
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    This is a touchy area...But all of you Jr.s and cadets or what ever your title may be have to realize this...The senior Firefighters have the responsibility to make sure the fire gets extingushed and therefore need to be the ones on the first due piece of equipment...Engine Ladder Ect...Jr. Firefighters are our support group and need to remember your duties are or are suppossed to be limited...My Company does not allow The Jr. Guys on the Engines {2} or the Ladder Company and they are only permitted response on the utility vehicle if no other senior members have responded to the hall....The fire chiefs have a responsibility to make sure you guys get back home in one piece to your parents...Insurance is a big issue....Be patient young firefighters...your day will come when making the first due won't seem as important to you as it does now !!!

  11. #11
    Bob Snyder
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    I have no problem (personally or in our company SOGs) with juniors riding on any apparatus, but senior firefighters and officers should have priority on positions. It's important for juniors to understand that the issue is one of the effectiveness of the apparatus leaving the station. It's not just about "seniority" or "a game of numbers"...at least, it shouldn't be.

    Juniors can't operate power or hydraulic equipment, enter structures or hazardous atmospheres, operate apparatus or pumps, or a few other things (at least, that's state law in PA). Given these restrictions, leaving the station with (for example) a ladder truck filled with juniors is essentially the same as leaving driver-only. When you get there, you've only got the personnel already on the scene (if any) to staff the ladder...the juniors on board aren't allowed to do it.

    On the other hand, leaving with 3 senior FFs and/or officers and a junior in the last position gives you 3 people to do whatever is needed and an extra pair of outside hands to help the driver set up, etc. In that sense, it's certainly better to fill an open position on an otherwise staffed rig with a junior than to leave with that position empty.

    Lastly, to the juniors...this isn't personal. Remember that the restrictions that are in place are there for your protection. Your main job is to learn as much as you can, even though some of you probably think you're at least as good as or better than of the seniors (I was a junior at one time, too...it's funny how I knew so much more then than I do now that I'm an officer...). You'll eventually be out there doing everything that the senior FFs are, after you've had time to "learn the ropes", so take advantage of the time you have to learn to do things properly.

  12. #12
    Explorer_Chief
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Red face

    The way i see it is why have a truck full of firefighters go out and have all of the cadets that responded stay at the station? 1st off who would drive if a second truck is needed? I know in most places there has to be a 2:1 ratio of firefighters to cadets on a truck, so even if a firefighter did show up to drive he still couldnt take any cadets with him.i think that if a truck has seating for six there should be a mixed crew of 4 firefighters and 2 cadets, that way there are still an abundance of ff's left to respond to sedond and third out calls. ohh well, and another un-related thing i have to say is that here there are weekly meetings, and for a member to be able to respond to a call that week they should have to attend the meeting and participate in any activities.. later!!

  13. #13
    greendrum872
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    I belive cadets should be on the first rig out. Senior members can always take the next engine. Cadets on my department have the job of operating radios, lights and sirens. When the cadets get to the scene, they will connect to hydrants and get positive pressure going. The senior members can then pack up and get hoses into the structure.

  14. #14
    Brian Dunlap
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    For greendrum872....ARE YOU KIDDING ME ? Take the next engine out ? WRONG !! Com'on stay with me for a minute...If the cadets go out on the first due and leave the second due for the senior guys and you have confirmed work it's going to look pretty bad when the engine arrives and nobody to enter the structure to actually fight the fire...In-direct from the outside maybe...But what about the possibility of trapped occupants and the need for ventilation and opening up the roof..Ect...Who cares if the cadets can operate the lights sirens and radios...with out effective trained senior personnel on scene the incident will go down hill real fast...I understand your view but you guys are the ones who need to be on the second and third due the first due needs to be staffed with senior and trained firefighters and at least one company officer....Be patient your day will come...

  15. #15
    unit25-53
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Arrow

    In my dept. jrs. do get to repond in the first truck out...Our chief likes us to go for the experience... Sometimes, we actually beat the F/F's who have keys to the station... You see we aren't allowed to have a key to the building.

    ------------------
    Odis King
    unit 25-53

  16. #16
    cglidden403
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    I started out as a junior firefighter when I was 13. when i turned 14 I probably knew more about firefighting then half the other firefighters. Only because they didn't put restrictions on what I was allowed to do except going into a working structure fire. If I put the energy into getting to the station before other members then I got to leave first. I am now a 19 year old training officer for my department. Pretty young to be training the older people. But that should prove...don't think just cause they are young doesn't mean they don't know just as much as you do!!!
    Chris Glidden
    Training Officer

  17. #17
    FiReFiGhTeR88
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    in my station if ur there u go dosnt madder 1,2,3,4,5 truck u go jrs are important there treated just like regular ff

  18. #18
    WLFire65
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Look at it this way, if the truck has all the senior members that have arrived at the station on board and there is an open seat, why not fill it with a junior who can pull hose, hook up to the hydrant, etc. instead of leaving the seat empty.

  19. #19
    Fireguy57
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    NEVER! You can never be sure what exactly the emergency is, or how badly it has grown out of control from the time it was called in. It is always safer to have juniors if possible on the last truck out, or in the EMS unit. We allow juniors on the last two trucks out, or in the second EMS unit.

  20. #20
    FirefighterReed
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    All that matters to you older fire fighters is that you've already paid your dues and don't want to see jrs. jump to the front of the line without paying their dues. I agree totally with that. Luckily in my department I'm the only jr. so I get to ride on any truck I want most of the ff respond pov anyhow so they don't make the trucks. The only people that have to respond to the station are drivers.

    ------------------
    Find em hot......Leave em wet...

    Fire Fighters job is never done

  21. #21
    Bob Snyder
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    FirefighterReed said:

    "All that matters to you older fire fighters is that you've already paid your dues and don't want to see jrs. jump to the front of the line without paying their dues. I agree totally with that."

    First, "paying dues" isn't the point. Second, if it were the point, then I don't agree with that at all. Let me re-post part of what I offered earlier in this thread:

    > It's important for juniors to understand that the issue is one of the effectiveness of the apparatus leaving the station. It's not just about "seniority" or "a game of numbers"...at least, it shouldn't be...this isn't personal...Remember that the restrictions that are in place are there for your protection. Your main job is to learn as much as you can.

    The long and short of it is that, at least in PA, I'd be taking an immense legal and financial risk, both personally and on behalf of the fire company, if I left the station with a rig full of juniors (who are legally restricted in what they can do out there) and wasn't effective on the scene, or if I violated the legal restrictions on Juniors' activities on the fireground. This is to say nothing of the risks of sending only partially trained people in to do front line jobs. I really don't care about who pays dues and who doesn't...I care about my responsibilities as an officer. Period.

  22. #22
    jrMFD57
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    i think that senior ff's should be able to bump juniors off the first out truck.

  23. #23
    11BrynAthyn355
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    At our department, our first out truck holds 10 people. Driver/Officer, 2 hydrant people (Juniors usually), and 6 Airpack qualified personnel. Depending on time of day/year, what type of incident, # of apparatus, etc., we don't usually have problems. Yes they should be allowed to be on the first out truck. Also, we only have 3 JR's on our company.

    ------------------
    -Rick R.
    -Bryn Athyn Fire Company and Ambulance
    -Station 11 and Squad 355 in Montgomery County, Pa
    -http://mov.to/BAFC

  24. #24
    11BrynAthyn355
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    At our department, our first out truck holds 10 people. Driver/Officer, 2 hydrant people (Juniors usually), and 6 Airpack qualified personnel. Depending on time of day/year, what type of incident, # of apparatus, etc., we don't usually have problems. Yes they should be allowed to be on the first out truck. Also, we only have 3 JR's on our company.

    ------------------
    -Rick R.
    -Bryn Athyn Fire Company and Ambulance
    -Station 11 and Squad 355 in Montgomery County, Pa
    -http://mov.to/BAFC

  25. #25
    E229Lt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    NO

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