1. #1
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    Default Are We A Liability?

    Is it just me, or are Explorers getting written off as too much of a liability?

    Why do fire departments sponsor Explorer programs if they believe this?

    Let me hear what you guys have to say.

    R.J.

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    That what it sounds like to me at my post. Why cant we ride yet? Gotta check the insurance. Oh come on, cant do this , cant do that, what can we do? I could get hurt worse riding a bicycle than half the stuff they wont let us do. Just my opinion
    -Stay Safe

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    Nothing like hearing people complain, *notes he just got back from a big worker so I'm a tad in the unpleasant mood tonight*, It is a HUGE liability for departments to have juniors/explorers. NSFDJR, you state:
    I could get hurt worse riding a bicycle than half the stuff they wont let us do. Just my opinion
    Supposed your riding to a call and you get into an accident and you get severly injured? Supposed they let you handle the Jaws at an entrapment call and because you f*** up the victim dies due to your lack of training. Supposed they send you into a worker and you get hurt or worse..

    My point is, I know it sucks not being able to do all the things the regular guys are, but its for your own good. Your department wants to make sure you learn and watch how to be a firefighter, without getting hurt, and someday you'll be able to go run into that burning building, or scream out of the station on 1st due (though in my department I'm allowed to ride truck--but just as an example for those who aren't). And if you're just bitchin and moaning that you can't do anything, then why waste your time and energy being a junior/explorer?

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    Originally posted by SFDAJL:
    Supposed they let you handle the Jaws at an entrapment call and because you f*** up the victim dies due to your lack of training
    If a dept. let an Explorer work the jaws, a law suit from the victim's family will be the least of their problems. Now it sounds like you are not an Explorer or even a firefighter by your reply because an explorer working extrication tools is ILLEGAL, breaks Learning for Life laws, child labor laws and I would think dept. policy. So now that your argument is invalid, tell me how else we could get hurt, maybe while we drive the engine code 3 on the way to a fire and we get in a wreck, or maybe when we are going into a burning building with an attack line? So my point is, when explorers work within their guidlines, they are not a liability.

    By the way, if your dept. does let explorers run an extrication, could you tell me where you live and the best detour around your city?

    So now that I have done my "bitching", I will go back to being an explorer where the firefighters don't have your attitude towards us and they praise us at every incident we show up on. I couldn't begin to tell you how many thank you's and appreciations we recieve.

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    I am a junior, not an explorer, and no my department doesn't let us do things with exrtication. I don't know how the Learning for Life program is run, nor its rules or regulations. I usually have nothing but respect for explorers. It's just nfsdjr's attitude with the "get more hurt riding a bicycle" statement that made me annoyed, my general point was that there is a reason for what they do, and I was making examples for why departments consider us to be liabilities. And I forget who, but there is a department, who's their juniors posted their website on this forums, and on it was a junior using the jaws (weather it was at a call or training I don't recall), and that was my reason for posting that.

    And by the way -- we get the same amount of praise and thanks as you do.

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    I meant that everything we do, lets check the insurance? I agree with PFR that if we follow guidelines, we are not a liability, which we arent if SOGs are followed. My point is everything is can he do this, can he do that. In my dept we dont respond to calls except to the station and sit there, we dont operate any of the tools LFR states we cant, and we cant do many things our dept doesnt let us do. Its like, what can we do? Sorry for my statement bout getting hurt riding the bike, but its true. I can get hurt doing anything. I agree with the purpose of these rules, but saw the topic and wanted to state my opinion. thanks
    -Stay Safe

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    I'm so sick of some of you explorers always complaining about how you don't get to play firefighter..... Sure it annoys me just the same but It's there for a reason... Although I find OSHA TO BE GAY AS ALL HELL... Rules are made for a purpose... Either someone has ****ed up and hurt themselves or somebody else and as a result the rule was made to prevent further occurences... I used to gripe and moan alot...but I have a year and a half left until I turn rookie and I realized that I'm a cadet for a reason... TO LEARN... IM NOT HERE TO BUST DOWN DOORS AND KICK FIRES ***... THAT COMES LATER... YOU ARE HERE TO LEARN AND WATCH IN HOPES THAT THE EXTRA EXPERIENCE WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER FIREFIGHTER IN THE NEAR FUTURE...

    AND ONE MORE THING...DONT BE BUSTING ANDREW... HE KNOWS MUCH MORE THAN MANY OF YOU... I DON'T CARE WHAT THE HELL YOUR LITTLE EXPLORER RANK IS... IT MEANS NOTHING TO ME!!!



    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Adam Spencer ]

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    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Adam Spencer ]

    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Adam Spencer ]

    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Adam Spencer ]

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    Originally posted by Adam Spencer:
    I'm so sick of you little b***hes always complaining about how you don't get to play firefighter..... Sure it annoys me just the same but It's there for a reason... Although I find OSHA TO BE GAY AS ALL HELL... Rules are made for a purpose... Either someone has ****ed up and hurt themselves or somebody else and as a result the rule was made to prevent further occurences... I used to bitch and moan alot...but I have a year and a half left until I turn rookie and I realized that I'm a cadet for a reason... TO LEARN... IM NOT HERE TO BUST DOWN DOORS AND KICK FIRES ***... THAT COMES LATER... YOU ARE HERE TO LEARN AND WATCH IN HOPES THAT THE EXTRA EXPERIENCE WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER FIREFIGHTER IN THE NEAR FUTURE...

    AND ONE MORE THING...DONT BE BUSTING ANDREW... HE KNOWS MUCH MORE THAN MANY OF YOU... I DON'T CARE WHAT THE F*** YOUR LITTLE EXPLORER RANK IS... IT MEANS **** TO ME!!!

    And this doesn't make Explorers look bad????? You will probably get this thread shut down because of your little post. We obviously know who isn't mature around here. Also, Andrew knows more than any of us???? Really??? I have been around the fire service all my life.....so I doubt that. Also, You sound like you are a genius....do you and your 1.5 years of expierience know more than me???? Again,
    I doubt that. And by the way, no one was complaining about how we don't get to do anything, you brought that up. And your little friend Andrew thinks that explorers can run extrication??? I doubt that. Also, what makes you think you can go around calling us little bi*****???? Are you a firefigher.....nope. By the way, we have attitudes????? Have you read your own posts??
    If I were you I would scrape up whats left of your dignity and delete those two posts, Because if a Firefighter came into this thread I guaruntee they would think you are the one shedding bad light on explorers. And guess what, I showed my entire shift(8 firefighters) your response and they all said that they would never want to meet you on a fireground, and that you were the one that was out of line with your reply.

    Thank you

    [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: pfr172 ]

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    OK, now you've gotten me mad, It was nice that Adam tried to glorify me, but I can not say that I am smarter then people I don't know, but to start saying things like that, same applies you don't know me or how much I know. And by the way he said most of you, he didn't say you specifically, and pfr if you actually read my reply to my 1st post:

    And I forget who, but there is a department, who's their juniors posted their website on this forums, and on it was a junior using the jaws (weather it was at a call or training I don't recall)
    I dont think at all that explorers can do extrication, i was using it as a general example of you not doing things that regular firefighters can do.

    If I were you I would scrape up whats left of your dignity and delete those two posts, Because if a Firefighter came into this thread I guaruntee they would think you are the one shedding bad light on explorers
    I'm entitled to my own damn opinion, and I have plenty of dignity, none degrading from this post. And stop thinking for everyone else, if a firefighter comes and read this then let them make their own decision if we're shedding the "bad light" on explorers.

    And for the 3rd time I AM NOT AN EXPLORER, and as for the I'm not a firefighter part, last I checked I hold junior membership of my department and am in good standings, I have my own locker with my own turnout gear, and I have a 50% of total call responses, which out of that I made a truck 50% of that... So what are you saying that Junior Firefighters aren't firefighters, but explorers are? But know what you're right NONE OF US ARE FIREFIGHTERS, We're Juniors and Explorers learning how to be Firefighters... We can't go running off the truck on SCBA and run into a working structure fire (if you can then your department must have a lot of money for the insurance and fines it could/should get)...

    And as you go on about how the firefighters on your department glorify and praise you, oh well that's all nice and good, there are a lot of firefighters out there that hate explorers and juniors, keep that in mind...

    I wasn't aiming to start a fight of putting the juniors vs the explorers, I was merely providing examples to nsfdjr why there are reasons for us not being able to do what the regular guys and gals can do, then you come and start saying things and caused Adam (whom overreacts at times) to make a reply like that, and like I said I don't know how the explorer program is run, and I have no interest into knowing how the explorer program is run, I abide by my department's junior bylaws and rules. Have for a while and will for the next few months until I become a regular member.

    [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: SFDAJL ]

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    I have been thinkin bout this topic for a couple days now and have talked to some guys I know, and have really changed my opinion about this. Although sometimes I think I might not screw up somewhere, but I know I will, its everyones safety OSHA and State Fire, dept, and everyone who sets rules are looking out for. Im glad this topic was posted and has shown me many reasons why we shouldnt be doin stuff the big guys and gals do. We will all have our time in the future. Soak up all the training we can now, and we wont make mistakes in our future. There are just sooo many dangerous things in the fire service, everyone has to watch out for eachothers safety. Thanks guys for lettin me share my opinions!!

    And Adam and everyone, stop the moaning and groaning, this forum is to share opinions, not put others down, just to correct what is wrong. We are all here to learn!

    [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: nsfdjr ]
    -Stay Safe

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    You think that your 1.5 years means anything to me? I have 4 years and all the state certification classes under my belt, plus the 300 hours on the squad and 150 on a pump. I bet that the two that are causing the trouble on this thread have never seen or even dreamed of seeing a high-rise fire or a lady who has her brains scattered all over the highway.

    The reason I asked this question was because we were snubbed out of ALL activities in my chartering city stemming from an incident on Easter Sunday, 2000.

    One of my Explorers responded with an engine company he was riding with that day to an MVA. When the first due engine arrived, which he was on, they noticed that the passenger of a white Chrysler convertible, a female about 30, was blown into about 8 pieces, which were scattered over the highway in large to medium sized chunks. After that incident, our time was cut down to 7 hours from 12, which was mildly acceptable. Sometime after June 29, my last ride date, the department changed it's policy. Now only medical students are allowed to ride because of this incident. They thought that my Explorer's psychological condition was affected seriously. However, his parents knew damn well that such a thing was unaviodable and that he'd handled it fine.

    The bite to this was that this went into effect in July 2000. We didn't find out until now that it was because of that reason. Naturally, we feel that our administration has not given us the respect we deserve, since we do so much as a support group.

    They say liability, we point to BSA liability insurance and all the waivers they made us sign. Do you feel that this is fair? We don't, and are now making plans to switch to another department that is more understanding that we and they are covered by the BSA and the waivers.

    As for "playing" fire fighter, we train everyone to state minimum so that we know exactly what we are doing. We don't freelance, and none of our members have lightbars. We follow the rules to the letter, we sign all the papers, and train as we work. Our post is the model for other posts in the area, not because we are over 30 years old, but because none of our members misbehave. We are not fire setters, we are perfect in every aspect of the service.

    Any questions, post them here. Any problems, build a bridge and get over it.

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    R. J. All the certifications in the world couldn't make me respect you any less than I already do. You've have moaned in the past about how things are unfair. It's not that kids fault for what he saw... Maybe they should have made it mandatory for him to go to CISD or something. Now I agree that I over-reacted earlier and I apologize to all of you. I'm sick with some kind of flu, and I guess I kinda exploded. But c'mon guys... We can't always complain... Rules are that way for a reason... Although I don't agree with some of OSHA's child labor laws. I just know that we have to show we can be more mature than we do on here... I'M JUST AS BAD AS THE NEXT PERSON SOMETIMES, I'LL ADMIT THAT RIGHT NOW; but I'm human and I'll do that... R.J. I can't respect a piece of paper that says you know how to do something... The only way a man if I deem him as one earns my respect is by showing me he knows his fire and how to stop it... I apologize for my earlier actions although I AM NOT SCRAPING TOGETHER WHAT DIGNITY I HAVE LEFT!!! I NEVER LOST IT YOU JACKHOLE!!! You are the one that blew everything out of proportion in the first place and caused me to blow up... Because you jumped my man Andrew. Get to know me before you judge me Plano... I may seem to shoot my mouth off... But when it comes down to it, I'm the guy you wanna have on a fire scene... I have the will and the passion to do my job. And I would never leave your side in a building... And if for some reason you became trapped inside... I would be the first person in after you... Even if I had to dig out a wall with my bare hands... I love firefighting... It is my passion and It's my dream to be the best firefighter I can... Im out...

    Stay safe everyone... You never know whats behind that next wall.

    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Adam Spencer ]

    [ 08-14-2001: Message edited by: Adam Spencer ]

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    Why doesn't everyone stop trying to measure the sizes of their weinies by moaning about how many department certifications they hold or how many fire's they've seen from the outside.

    Damn - some of you Explorers and Juniors are just sounding like.......... children?

    Are you hear to do a job or would you prefere just a plastic fire hat and a coloring book? Grow up.

    - Turk II

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    I'd prefer to do the job.

    Adam, the paper does say I know my fire, I probably know it better than you, both on paper and in real life. It's not my fault that you screwed yourself up. Ohio doesn't obey OSHA standards because our state laws do that for us. Our advisor or highest ranking officer has the right to over-ride the law in order to ensure the safety of all personnel on the fire ground. My great-uncle is paying for the leather-lunging he did in the 60's, but his is worse.

    It's not my fault that your friend is completely ignorant about this situation. No one cares if he's not an Explorer, the same or very similiar rules apply. But, as far as Explorers, liability insurance and National guidelines come with the package. Even though we are over-hauling ours to be less constricting and more understandable, we still should not have been removed from front-line service because we would have been running on the old SOP's until the new SOP's were approved.

    But the situation overall is being resolved, we are planning to switch to a volunteer dept that is more lenient towards our activities and even lets us participate in departmental training. Have a nice day.

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    I fully agree with Spencer and Andrew. I am an Explorer sure i got dreams of BLOWING doors off and saving a life. But if a cadet/explorer goes and does this and something happens no u won't be yelled out you'll have goodbyes said because they'll be sealing u inside a wooden box. All because u had a power trip. I like being a Explorer i got 2 years to go before turning into a rookie. I wanna live to see it. As far as cadets/explorers doing whatever they please forget it your there to learn and like spenc said "PLAY FIREFIGHTER!" thats later. and if u wanna reply i'll be more then happy to give u guys answers,
    Thomas J.
    Protection Eng Co Explorer Post #6


    Stay Safe and Never Forget Your Fallen Brothers and Sisters.

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    Originally posted by Adam Spencer:
    I apologize for my earlier actions although I AM NOT SCRAPING TOGETHER WHAT DIGNITY I HAVE LEFT!!! I NEVER LOST IT YOU JACKHOLE!!!You are the one that blew everything out of proportion in the first place and caused me to blow up... Because you jumped my man Andrew.
    Man, Adam, you are on a roll, keep blaming other people. If you think that I will respect you as a firefighter or explorer, you are very wrong. I do not respect people that can't control themselves or their actions, and I personally would not want you next to me in a burning building. If you will go back and look at my replies, you will notice that they are mature responses, and it shows that I can control my actions. Now as you have noticed, I never called anyone names or sweared at anyone, however you did, and that is justification for you to be removed from the Firehouse.com Forums, and I will be sure to let webteam know. And as they always say, the people who have to curse and call other people names are the ones that aren't as big and tough that they make themselves out to be. By the way, I know you will reply to this message, so try to do it in what we call a "mature" manner. And I never had any problem with Andrew and I still don't, the only reason he is in this conversation is because you were putting words into his mouth. And thank you Andrew for not posting a rude reply. I have nothing but respect for you and your dept. Also, being a Jr. FF is the same as an Explorer to me, except you have to follow different rules than I do.

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    NJOUTLAW, what in the world are you talking about? Go and do what and why would they seal you in a wooden box? I'm talking about an Explorer responding to a fatal accident on a first due piece on a scheduled ride and then the fire dept. we're with telling us we're a liability. You obviously have no clue about anything we have said in this thread.

    First of all, we don't "play" fire fighter. We are trained to state standards for fire fighters. We are essentially fire fighters, just too young to test for cards and fight the structure fires from the inside. If you're speaking on freelancing, this is the wrong thread bud.

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    first off, quit whining and complaining and be happy you get to do anything, to me, there is no difference between explorers and juniors. i don`t care what pieces of paper you got from your department, they really don`t mean nothing. it`s good that you kids get to do some training but i don`t think that any of you should be on a first due engine or rescue until you get atleast firefighter I. i think you should hang out at the station and help wash equipment so the firefighters can have a break after runs. as far as the original question, yes i do think that your a liability. the reason is that there are way to many hazards at a fire scene and if any of you kids get hurt, it`s only going to make the insurance higher which means that taxpayers are going to pay more and thats not good for public relations. and remember that our main concern as firefighters is to help out the public.

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    First off, I think you should get your facts straight before you post anything on this board. I said scheduled ride time, as in we make an appointment to ride. We didn't know that alarm was going to drop, or how the department was going to respond to an Explorer being on that alarm. I guess that they responded negetivly to us.

    We were allowed on the first due piece because at the time we were not a liability, all the paperwork was covered and signed by both parties. Which poses another question: How can we get hurt if we're go-fering and know what we're doing?? People on this board fail to realize that we're not stupid out here in Ohio, we have intelligence, more than I can say for most fire fighters in this area. Trained by the best to be better than the last. We know our equipment and we know our stuff, our last natural disaster proved that to the nation.

    I'm not whining, I'm stating the facts. We are covered by all forms of insurance, plus waivers, which we sign and our parents sign and the department signs, so they're covered. Yet the question remains: Why are we considered a liability?

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