1. #1
    eelamb
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Rocket fuel fires, and firefighter arssonists

    Recently in a class I took, we were asked to find information about rocket fuel fires. We also were assigned to find info on an arsonist named John Orr. He was a captain in California. I have a little research on him, but nothing much. Any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Icerader
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well, where do I begin. First , I'll start with Rocket Fuel fires. In the mid-80's there were a spate of arson fire in the great Northwest. These fires were arson in cause and the theory, and I repeat the theory was, solid rocket fuel cells were the accelerant used in these fires. These fires burned so hot and so fast, experts had never seen anything like it before. In some of the fires, the concrete floors had actually experienced the closest thing to melting known. The normal expectation of concrete is "spalling." It was believed that the only thing that burned with that type of BTU power was solid rocket fuel. There was never any trace of an accelerant detected. The belief here was that the fire burned so intensely it completely consumed the accelerant. Many investigators and scientists such as John DeHahn attempted to prove or disprove the theory of solid rocket fuel accelerants. As far as I know, it has never been officially determined. I heard one theory that the accelerant in some of these fire might have been powdered metal, such as aluminum or magnesium. That is what I know....there are articles written on the subject.

    Now as for John Orr. I personally knew John Orr. I even took a couple of classes from him. He was a Fire Captain with the Glendale Fire Dept in Southern California. John was considered the guru of Fire Investigators. The Fire Investigator teacher of Fire Investigators. I would say that probably 80% of investigators in the late 80 had taken classes from Orr. John had an uncanny ability to solve fires. He could walk into a completely burned out building, walk over to an area and point to the spot where the fire started. He would then go on to tell you what the device looked like. Some of these fires were very big...some were wildland, some were fatal fires. In one of the early fires, a device was discovered. The device was printed and prints were discovered, unfortunately technology had not caught up yet. The evidence was held in P&E for years.

    In the early 90's these fire were continuing. In one of the fires a device was recovered. Low and behold it was a match to the earlier one. It was sent in for processing. Now at this point the CalID system was up and running. The print came back to Orr. The ATF was called in and intense surveillance was conducted, some hi-tech. John was placed at the scene of a number of fires at the time they began. he was later arrested. He had written a book about a Fire Investigator arsonist that paralleled his career. John was convicted in Federal court for arson. He was serving time in federal prison. The State of California charged him with 2 counts of homicide for a least one of the fires. He was convicted a couple of years ago. He is serving a life sentence.

    The case against him was very tight and was eventually made into a TV movie.

    I was an Arson Investigator during the late 80's and the 90's. I was privy to some of the investigation before it was public knowledge. Before John was a suspect, I had a fire believed to be part of the trail. I was on a task force that looked into these fires. Once John was identified, all local investigators were taken out of the loop for preservation of the case. ATF ran the investigation exclusively.

    I hope this information is beneficial to you.
    Captain Bill Dumas


    [This message has been edited by Icerader (edited 04-06-2001).]

  3. #3
    CJBFireConsultant
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    For more information on the alleged HIGH-Temp Accelerant Fires, contact ATF Agent Steve Carmen from San Fransisco, California office.

    He actually was involved in the investigation and research on these alleged fires and not only has authored papers on the subject, but toured the IAAI circuit lecturing on the topic. He has some interesting DOCUMENTATION to support his opinions. Many, if not most, of the fires where the cause was attributed to allegations of a high-temp accelerrant by the local public officials were later disproven and not accepted through the use of scienctific analysis and testing.



    ------------------
    Chris Bloom
    CJB Fire Consultant

  4. #4
    eelamb
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks for all the info. I checked out the LRC and they sent me a bundle of stuff. Keep it coming.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eelamb View Post
    Recently in a class I took, we were asked to find information about rocket fuel fires. Any help would be appreciated.
    ok, so please forgive the resurrection. but what I am about to type I have thought about quite a bit, but never was able to find information on it.

    in the late 90's I watched a documentary about arson and how the some arson fires were melting the steel in the buildings. Also the fire burned so hot that the water, from the firefighters, became fuel, that is the hydrogen and oxygen separated and fueled the fire. The documentary stated that the it was determined that the fuel for the initial fire was amonium tri-chlorate (sp) or per-chlorate (sp) either way, the documentary claimed it was space shuttle fuel.

    Jump ahead to the 2002 winter Olympics. I am working as low level security, myself and co-workers are speaking with two soldiers from who served in Iraq during Gulfwar I. The soldiers started telling us about something called "wall of fire" (the soldiers exact term) they talked about how it could melt the steel tracks on military vehicles. My co-worker asked what the substance was that was used for the "wall of fire". The soldiers claimed it was classified.

    I finally spoke up and said "I know what it is", the soldiers laughed and asked "what" I responded "Either ammonium perchlorate or trichlorate or it is space shuttle fuel". Both soldiers eyes IMMEDIATELY widened, they literally were speechless, after my comment they walked away.

    So, putting things together. Lets say I was right about the substance for the "wall of fire".

    So here is my conspiracy, the arson fires wherein the steel melted were mostly empty warehouses, I suspect that the military is responsible for the arsons/warehouse fires; they were testing "wall of fire". I have considered but have never filed a FOIA request on "wall of fire" just see what I could find.


    I have also seen a documentary on John Orr, wherein he was not connected to the warehouse fires.
    Last edited by franklinsims; 12-05-2010 at 12:57 AM. Reason: john orr

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by franklinsims View Post
    So here is my conspiracy, the arson fires wherein the steel melted were mostly empty warehouses, I suspect that the military is responsible for the arsons/warehouse fires; they were testing "wall of fire". I have considered but have never filed a FOIA request on "wall of fire" just see what I could find.
    That's the most asinine thing I've heard here in weeks. Please, do you really thing the military doesn't have their own scrap metal to test stuff on. Don't be an idiot and drag up a 10 year old thread to toss around these moronic conspiracy theories.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    LittleFireChick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pinehurst NC
    Posts
    25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by franklinsims View Post
    ok, so please forgive the resurrection. but what I am about to type I have thought about quite a bit, but never was able to find information on it.

    in the late 90's I watched a documentary about arson and how the some arson fires were melting the steel in the buildings. Also the fire burned so hot that the water, from the firefighters, became fuel, that is the hydrogen and oxygen separated and fueled the fire. The documentary stated that the it was determined that the fuel for the initial fire was amonium tri-chlorate (sp) or per-chlorate (sp) either way, the documentary claimed it was space shuttle fuel.

    Jump ahead to the 2002 winter Olympics. I am working as low level security, myself and co-workers are speaking with two soldiers from who served in Iraq during Gulfwar I. The soldiers started telling us about something called "wall of fire" (the soldiers exact term) they talked about how it could melt the steel tracks on military vehicles. My co-worker asked what the substance was that was used for the "wall of fire". The soldiers claimed it was classified.

    I finally spoke up and said "I know what it is", the soldiers laughed and asked "what" I responded "Either ammonium perchlorate or trichlorate or it is space shuttle fuel". Both soldiers eyes IMMEDIATELY widened, they literally were speechless, after my comment they walked away.

    So, putting things together. Lets say I was right about the substance for the "wall of fire".

    So here is my conspiracy, the arson fires wherein the steel melted were mostly empty warehouses, I suspect that the military is responsible for the arsons/warehouse fires; they were testing "wall of fire". I have considered but have never filed a FOIA request on "wall of fire" just see what I could find.


    I have also seen a documentary on John Orr, wherein he was not connected to the warehouse fires.

    Ammonium perchlorate is solid rocket fuel and is regulated. Personnel must hold a certification in order to purchase rocket motors of this configuration.

    Your story about the Gulf War sounds like some fictitious nonsense. I never heard such a thing. I inspected vehicles returning from Iraq and never saw or heard of anything of the sort. Something like that would have gone viral on the internet by now.

    The military has several testing grounds where we test this sort of thing. One of them is Aberdeen. The other is Redstone Arsenal.

    Do some research into the veracity of your claims and that of others before you post, okay?

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    tfpd109's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    On the flatest land around! (In central Il.)
    Posts
    618

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFireChick View Post
    Ammonium perchlorate is solid rocket fuel and is regulated. Personnel must hold a certification in order to purchase rocket motors of this configuration.

    Your story about the Gulf War sounds like some fictitious nonsense. I never heard such a thing. I inspected vehicles returning from Iraq and never saw or heard of anything of the sort. Something like that would have gone viral on the internet by now.

    The military has several testing grounds where we test this sort of thing. One of them is Aberdeen. The other is Redstone Arsenal.

    Do some research into the veracity of your claims and that of others before you post, okay?
    Wow LFC, your to nice... I decided not to say anything as I would probably get a nastygram from WT.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    CaptOldTimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 1999
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by franklinsims View Post
    ok, so please forgive the resurrection. but what I am about to type I have thought about quite a bit, but never was able to find information on it.

    in the late 90's I watched a documentary about arson and how the some arson fires were melting the steel in the buildings. Also the fire burned so hot that the water, from the firefighters, became fuel, that is the hydrogen and oxygen separated and fueled the fire. The documentary stated that the it was determined that the fuel for the initial fire was amonium tri-chlorate (sp) or per-chlorate (sp) either way, the documentary claimed it was space shuttle fuel.

    Jump ahead to the 2002 winter Olympics. I am working as low level security, myself and co-workers are speaking with two soldiers from who served in Iraq during Gulfwar I. The soldiers started telling us about something called "wall of fire" (the soldiers exact term) they talked about how it could melt the steel tracks on military vehicles. My co-worker asked what the substance was that was used for the "wall of fire". The soldiers claimed it was classified.

    I finally spoke up and said "I know what it is", the soldiers laughed and asked "what" I responded "Either ammonium perchlorate or trichlorate or it is space shuttle fuel". Both soldiers eyes IMMEDIATELY widened, they literally were speechless, after my comment they walked away.

    So, putting things together. Lets say I was right about the substance for the "wall of fire".

    So here is my conspiracy, the arson fires wherein the steel melted were mostly empty warehouses, I suspect that the military is responsible for the arsons/warehouse fires; they were testing "wall of fire". I have considered but have never filed a FOIA request on "wall of fire" just see what I could find.


    I have also seen a documentary on John Orr, wherein he was not connected to the warehouse fires.
    Spammer!!!!!!!!!!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  10. #10
    105
    105 is offline
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by franklinsims View Post
    So here is my conspiracy, the arson fires wherein the steel melted were mostly empty warehouses, I suspect that the military is responsible for the arsons/warehouse fires; they were testing "wall of fire".
    Milhouse: Ahem. OK, here's what we've got: the Rand Corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people --
    Bart: Thank you.
    Milhouse: under the supervision of the reverse vampires --
    Lisa: [sighs]
    Milhouse: are forcing our parents to go to bed early in a fiendish plot to eliminate the meal of dinner. We're through the looking glass, here, people...

    Makes about the same amount of sense.
    Last edited by 105; 03-17-2011 at 11:30 AM.

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eelamb View Post
    Recently in a class I took, we were asked to find information about rocket fuel fires. We also were assigned to find info on an arsonist named John Orr. He was a captain in California. I have a little research on him, but nothing much. Any help would be appreciated.
    have you tried google, or call the boston arson squad, someone will be able to help,617-343-3324, ak for chief ahern, or captain staunton

  12. #12
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by boston john View Post
    have you tried google, or call the boston arson squad, someone will be able to help,617-343-3324, ak for chief ahern, or captain staunton
    Hey brother, welcome to boards. However, this thread was started about 11 years ago, so he probably won't see this post.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register