1. #1
    DD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Engineers driving while wearing bunkers?

    I am seeking information from departments which require or prohibit the wearing of bunkers and boots by engineers while driving. My main concern is that my department uses rubber boots and has mostly standard transmissions in our trucks. It is tough to use the clutch properly. Even with the automatic transmissions, it is easy to get the big boots on both the brake and accelerator at the same time.

    [This message has been edited by DD (edited November 14, 1999).]

  2. #2
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We don't require or prohibit but...

    We let the driver decide. If he/she is comfortable, the whole crew and the public is safer. If they choose not to wear their bunkers while driving, they still have to take them.

  3. #3
    Capt Lee
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our standard SOP is for the engineer to wear his bunker pants enroute then once on scene dress out the rest of the way, minus scba, as part of the 2 in 2 out. This way he's already dressed and just grabs his scba from the side comparment if needed. So far its worked well.

    After reading the other posts I will add that all our rigs are automatics, and yes seatbelts are required. Sounds like the most trouble/ concern is with the standards.

    [This message has been edited by Capt Lee (edited November 25, 1999).]

  4. #4
    Bob Snyder
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I've always hated driving with bunkers on. The whole thing doesn't feel right, it's harder to find the pedals and to get a feel for the catch point on the clutch. Currently, my company requires engineers to be geared on the scene, but leaves the driving with gear issue up to the individual engineer. We do, however, recognize the value of getting people in gear before leaving the station, and some of us (myself included) have been trying to teach ourselves to drive safely in bunkers.

    So far, Ive found that getting the feel for the pedal placement in the automatics isn't hard if you put your mind to it. As easy as that turned out to be is as hard as it's been to get used to the sticks. In fact, I've found that it's impossible to drive the '72 Mack with bunkers on unless I empty both my side bunker pockets. Even then, I can't take my foot completely off the clutch...there just isn't enough room between the clutch pedal and the steering wheel or the steering wheel and the door. This isn't comfortable or safe, really. If this ever becomes an SOP, that will be the last time I drive that rig.

  5. #5
    ChapCapt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our policy is no driving in bunker boots. You may drive in coat or pants. Personally I find in uncomfortable to drive in my bunker coat. (We only have one standard transmission vehicle) The reason for the policy is that the powers that be feel it is safer to drive in regular shoes, sneakers, whatever than in the big clunky bunker boots. Drivers are required to bring gear with them. In our newest truck we actually had a compartment build specifically for the driver to stowe his gear.

  6. #6
    DED1645
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    Personally I agree w/ some of the replies that it is more comfortable and you do have a better feel for the pedals w/o heavy boots on, but it also is a dept's SOP that everyone must wear their gear. One of the main reasons being that our dept. had a apparatus overturn and if everyone was wearing gear some of the injuries wouldn't have been as severe. I got 68 stitches in my back from shattering glass and other objects. If I was wearing my gear I would of most likely just got a few bumps and bruses.

    ------------------
    David DeCant
    firefighter/NREMT-B
    Originally Mantua,NJ
    Presently Lindenwold,NJ(I'm not a member of any of this District's dept's.)


  7. #7
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    I usually only wear my pants and boots (leather type) because I like the unrestricted feeling of no coat. I also have driven in street clothes in a few instances. In some cases, the only thing I would make mandatory is a helmet and gloves of some type. I have had the "two pedal" experience before and it is scary. It also makes you look incompetent and foolish. The same with the clutch..i can drive a standard trans pretty well, but put me in fire boots and it all goes to poop. Shouldnt the driver be as functional as possible..to me that means no gear to restrict movement. And im not really concerned with any standards which may exist..I am looking at it from a practical standpoint. Oh yeah..seatbelts on too!

    [This message has been edited by e33 (edited March 20, 2000).]

  8. #8
    Firstin88
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    I agree that the Engineer must be comfortable/functional, but you still need to have your gear on when at the scene. Not only for the 2 in 2 out rule, but for the safety of the Engineer. If a line were to burst or some other accident were to occur, OSHA would have a field day with your department on why you were not fully protected.

    With that said, most newer apparatus have the pedals set-up for operating with your bunker pants and boots on. As well as all newer apparatus have auto tranny's now, so it makes it easier.

    I pose another question to you then, what about the Engineer driving with his/her helmet on?

    Thanks e33 for mentioning the seatbelts, they are far to often not used.

    Stay safe out there!

    Tim H.

  9. #9
    Bob Snyder
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    Actually, e33, you won't draw fire from me on this...as long as the engineer is going to be just that and only that for the duration of the call, he/she really doesn't need the gear most of the time. The main reason we've been moving toward gearing the engineers (I should correct my earlier post...our SOGs actually say that the engineer must have gear at the scene and be wearing at least the helmet...the rest is currently an informal "recommendation" from the Deputy Chief) is because we've been finding that we're shuffling positions a lot more than we used to.

    For us, it used to be that the engineers were usually older guys who weren't likely to be doing any firefighting anyway, at least on any particular call when they drove. Now, we tend to have front line crew/officers driving initially, with some of the older engineers showing up at the scene when there is a working fire. That allows those front-line people to be relieved from the panel to fight fire soon after arrival, making it more important that they are geared earlier. Hence, our little experiment.

    I still hate driving in bunkers, but I'll keep trying to get better at it if it makes operations a little more effective in some way.

  10. #10
    rocketboy192
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our department does not have an SOG about this issue. It is left up to the individual driver/engineer's preference. Our fire chief wants ALL personnel on a fireground to be dressed in PPE on the fire scene so if the driver/engineer does not dress at the station, he is supposed to dress at the scene (which is an entirely different topic because few do it). I personally do not have a problem driving with my binker pants on. Keep in mind, all of out apparatus, including spares, are Pierce custom cabs (Dash & Saber) and all have automatic transmissions so room in the cab in not an issue. I can identify with everyone on the standard transmission issue though because several of our spares used to have standard transmissions. Coupled with the fact that they had Ford cabs and chassis made space a precious commodity. I usually do NOT where my bunker pants during the day. The three driver/engineers at my station have unofficially made space in a compartment (the rear driver's side) for our turnouts, a halligan bar, a bolt cutter, our issued SCBA facemask, and an SCBA. During the day, my stuff stays in there but after 4PM (when we are allowed to change into shorts, t-shirts, etc.) I usually respond in my bunker pants because they are so quick to don. At night I always wear my bunker pants. I feel that wearing my bunker pants keeps me safer and allows me to be a bit more ready to act in the capacity of a RIT team or assist in any other emergency that may arise.



    ------------------
    Ronald J. Tocci, II
    Driver/Engineer
    Engine 1 C
    Mandeville, Louisiana
    IAFF Local 3704

  11. #11
    NY FIRE WATCH
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I personally wear bunkers when I drive. I understand everyone's problem with wearing them. Here is a suggestion, buy leather boots. This has made driving much easier. In my department, sometimes the driver maybe asked to help stretch a line in a possibly dangerous area. Also, when operating on roadways, the extra reflective clothing is much safer that a duty uniform.

  12. #12
    RVFDCapt
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    My dept. has a SOP that all firemen should be in turnouts when leaving the station but, I think that it must be left up to the chief and apparatus operator as to whether or not bunkers are worn when driving. Alot of good points have been mentioned here but the most critical point is the safety factor. It must be determined that the apparatus can be operated safely and properly by the apparatus driver at all times. Therefore, it may need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Once on scene, I think engineers should be dressed in bunker pants, boots, gloves and helmet. Just in case they may need to do some type of emergency rescue, etc.

  13. #13
    DD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks to all for the replies!

  14. #14
    Bob Snyder
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Red face

    Update on my driving with bunkers experiment...tried to drive the (standard transmission) quint back from a call with bunkers still on on Sunday afternoon. Got my left leg pocket hung up on the door handle at one point and couldn't get on the clutch. Nearly hit two parked cars and almost blew a stop sign, but I got the whole thing under control before anything bad actually happened.

    End of experiment. I don't need two near misses to recognize a bad idea.

  15. #15
    pyroknight
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    When you're the only one on the truck, you better be dressed for the occasion when you get there! Massive understaffing has resulted in our department requiring all firefighters to don PPE prior to departing the station. My big *** couldn't possibly wear a helmet and drive. I'd break my neck the first bump I hit. I need all the headroom I can get. I have big ole size 13 feet and I have very little difficulty in operating an apparatus. We do have one standard tranny tender which I have also managed to operate safely lights and siren with gear on. A large portion of it is just familiarity.

    Our engineers are fully bunkered with SCBA at the pump panel, but if they really NEED that crap, they parked in the WRONG DAMN SPOT!

    Stay belted, stay safe, tell your family you love 'em.

  16. #16
    Firstin88
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    The reason I asked about the helmet is, we have one engineer that always wears his helmet while driving. He is a very large guy and just fits in the truck to begin with. He gets kidded all the time from us and our surrounding departments.



    ------------------
    Stay Safe and God Bless

    Tim

  17. #17
    INDY FIRE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    In Indy it's up to the Engineers if they wear thier Bunker Pants or not. Some do, and some don't.

    Be Safe.....

  18. #18
    Dwight Conrad
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have to agree with e33. I don't drive with my bunkers on. I do take them with me and don them after I've got my pump going and lines charged. I drive a single axle, manual trans delivery truck six days a week, and I know what it's like to use a clutch with cover-alls on in the winter. So, no way on bunkers in a engine. The engine we have at my station is a Young, and it's virtually impossible to put your foot on the clutch with a boot.

  19. #19
    SBrooks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    No departmental requirements.

    If I'm wearing uniform pants and steeltoed boots i'll wear those on bells calls, etc. as well as MVAs. We're not required to wear turnout pants on MVAs.

    If it sounds like a fire...I try to put on my pants, and perhaps coat before we leave the station. We operate a truck and a squad, and the drivers take an active role on teh fireground--turnouts are not optional.

    If it's night, I wear them. (unless it's unbearably hot and humid, I might just put on uniform pants then)

    We only have automatic transmiisions, and i've purchased a set of pull on leather boots. I actually have more trouble with wearing the coat than the pants.

  20. #20
    TYSON
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    On our Ladder Company, we wear all of our gear on runs. We are broken up into 2 teams. The officer and firefighter go inside, the driver and tillerman work the outside. We may have to go in-service quickly, so the driver and tillerman being geared up my save some needed time.

    P.S. most ffrs. in our ladder company wear some type of leather turn-out boot. They are alot easier to drive with.

    [This message has been edited by TYSON (edited December 11, 1999).]

  21. #21
    JRESCUE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our dept does not require us too,but we should always be prepared. I had the bunker boot problem too! Locked up the brakes on ice. What I went and did was purchase a pair of servus 10" leather structural rated fire boots. This way I can still do interior if need be. They make great station boots too! This way when we get a call I slip them off put on my bunker pants,and put them back on,and zip them up! They are also a lot safer to work around the fireground with!

    ------------------
    Buckle-Up and Stay Safe!!



  22. #22
    tmr91
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our department requires the engineer to wear bunker pants at a minimum. They must take their gear and wear it if needed on scene. If going out on a service call or inspection, the driver does not have to wear his/her bunkers.

  23. #23
    Engine508
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    It doesnt really matter in our truck because it is an automatic and it is easy to drive. So far no one has had any problems. Sometimes the driver takes his bunkers with him or just leaves them at the station, and just wears the helmet and jacket. Depends on the fire alarm. I think its mostly the manual transmissions you have problems with. I know some companies that the drivers who drive a manaul dont wear bunkers they put them on when they get to the scene. Or being that they stay by the truck they dont wear any way all which is stupid in my opinion.

    ------------------
    Andrew
    "You Go....We Go"
    "Emt's Don't Die They Stabalize"

  24. #24
    D. Anderson
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our ladder truck drivers are paired up with the tillerperson (fourperson on our one-piece Sutphens) and are involved in every part of truck operations so nearly all of them wear their turnouts on fire runs and extrications. Engine company drivers usually wear only their station uniforms in every situation except in the winter when many put on turnouts when it's realy cold. Our SOP's don't address turnouts enroute to the call but ladder drivers must wear full turnouts at fires and engine company drivers must wear at least boots and helmet when pumping, and full turnouts when on RIT team. I think the only time we're required to wear helmets on the rig enroute is when you're the tillerman, but most don't because you'd bang your head when going over bumps.

    We only have three ladders that are manual transmission left, but the drivers seem to have no problem driving them with turnouts on. I'm guessing it's because they're located at the slowest spots and the drivers there all have a lot of time on and experience. All of our engines are automatics except for a few spares.

  25. #25
    smitheps
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I personally believe that if an engineer is comfortable with wearing his pants and boots that he should. Especially if your department is short on manpower like one of mine is....there have been several instances where I have been the pump operator at an incident and shortly after my arrival another engineer has arrived in a POV and relieved me at the pump. Thus I am able to quickly don an SCBA to go assist my crew.

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