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  1. #1
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question Akron Assault nozzles, How do they work?

    I have the information in front of me, but I cant understand how a nozzle that isnt an automatic can have a wide rage of flows as they claim. Anyone able to explain the concept behind the Assault, by Akron Brass. Thanls for any help.

    ------------------
    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.




  2. #2
    LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    It is a fixed flow nozzle. Just like Grandpa used to use.

    Take any fixed flow nozzle or nozzle with a suicide knb that allowed you to select flow ratings at it will do the same thing and in many cases better.

    so a 250 gpm fog rated at 100 psi will flow at 50 psi 177 gpm, 75 psi 217 gpm, 90 psi 237 gpm, 120 psi 275 gpm. Do it with a multi flow nozzle with a ring anf you can cover 10 gpm to 331 gpm. A manual automatic nozzle.

  3. #3
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Im still not seeing the vision here, if it is a fixed orafice, how can it maintain the same stream quality over wide flow differences. Is the stamped flow the maximum efficient flow..and doesnt the reaction foce go up pretty quick once you exceed a certain flow, unlike an auto where the higher pressure is transferred to more GPM's.

    Larry, are you saying that a nozzle like the turbojet is better because you can select the flow by turning the ring or are you saying the opposite?

    Let me try to get this straight, this is a fixed orafice nozzle designed for a certain flow w/o a selector ring so that the nozzleman cannot try to change the flow w/o communicating to the pump operator, yes??

    what are the benefits of having this nozzle....please tell me why I would buy one (this is for anyone to answer) just so I can try to gain a better understanding. I know why I would buy an automatic because I know how it works, same with a SB. Thanks.

    ------------------
    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.



  4. #4
    LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Im still not seeing the vision here, if it is a fixed orafice, how can it maintain the same stream quality over wide flow differences.

    It doesn't


    Is the stamped flow the maximum efficient flow..

    nope

    and doesnt the reaction force go up pretty quick once you exceed a certain flow,

    sure does.

    unlike an auto where the higher pressure is transferred to more GPM's.

    you'll lose that with a fixed flow.

    Larry, are you saying that a nozzle like the turbojet is better because you can select the flow by turning the ring or are you saying the opposite?

    If you want a fixed flow nozzle ant ring style nozzle will work better than a fixed flow nozzle.

    Let me try to get this straight, this is a fixed orafice nozzle designed for a certain flow w/o a selector ring so that the nozzleman cannot try to change the flow w/o communicating to the pump operator, yes??

    That is exactly right. So as lng as you and the pump operator are on the same page with every line in use yo might get a decnt stream. If not you'll get a poor or over pressured stream. Your grand pa and pa couldn't make it work, that iswhy the FD went to automatics and ring style nozzles. They seem to trust the nozzleman more thanthe pump operator. Or they like to control their own destiny.

    what are the benefits of having this nozzle....

    1) it allows the manufacturer to have a low tech high cost nozzle without many moving pieces. Can you say profit....?

    2) it allows the manufacturer to offer something that looks and sounds new so you'll dump your perfectly good nozzzles and by lower capability nozzles instead, forced obsolecence. Profit.....

    3. They can sell easy. See, grandpa and pa couldn't possibly have held a nozzle flowing 200 gpm 100 psi nozzle during the high fire activity 70's and 80's. So if it is too hard to hold then the obvious solution is not learn hose holding techniques or how to let the ground eat reaction, the obvious answer is buy new nozzles. Profit.

    4. The days of fire officers telling the company officers that their crews better figure out how to get the pump pressures back where they belong to flow the amount of water training insisted be flowed are over so instead of giving a poor performance review for pumping 100 psi on an attack line and buring buildings down we decide to cjhange nozzles. Once the nozzle is changed the pump pressures will still be too low to take advantage of the new Saviour tip.

    5. Best reason to buy a fixed flow nozzle? The dummying of the fire service. No one has a clue about flow, hydraulics, pump operations etc. So this way they can pump anything, water will fall out of the nozzle and everyone will be happy because it is easier.

    please tell me why I would buy one (this is for anyone to answer) just so I can try to gain a better understanding. I know why I would buy an automatic because I know how it works.

    The automatic was designed to cover a huge flow range, put control in the nozzlemans hands, work in town and in rural settings where flow varies, maintain almost constant nozzle pressure and reach and instantly adjust to flow whereas the so called new nozzle requires everything to be pretty much right on between the engineer and the nozzleman. The two are a perfect contradiction to each other.

  5. #5
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I see the picture clearer now, thanks Larry.

    ------------------
    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.



  6. #6
    D. Anderson
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    E33 I can't speak for the concept behind how the Assault nozzle works, but I can give you a little performance evaluation if you're interested.

    A few years ago we replaced TFT nozzles with the Assault on our high fire bundles. I guess we were having problems with the TFT's in some of our high rises with too little pressure and the nozzle not giving a stream. The Assault is supposed to give a good stream down to 50 PSI, and it does seem to do it. I got to squirt some water with one while mopping up at a four alarm high rise fire after we relieved a company that was involved in the actual fire knock down. When we went to drain the hose to pick it up I found an actual knot in the hose out in the stairway that they must have got in there when they flaked it out. It was a pretty tight knot too! The nozzle still worked fine.

    As Larry says the downside is that at higher pressures the Assault has way, way more backpressure than our TFT's. I mean way more. I grabbed a high fire bundle with an Assault and hooked it into a wye at a different low rise multiple alarm fire and the difference was huge. Now I always try to get a bundle with a TFT in the same situation.

    Overall though they do work well for what we intend to use them for.

  7. #7
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    This is quoted from Jim Cottrell who works for TFT. The information can be found in his real world fire streams program. I believe that overall he did a good job proving that the reaction formulas are accurate regardless of nozzle. If you disagree with that so be it, I didn't do the testing, Jim Cottrell with TFT did and to date I have not seen anyone disprove his tests.

    Jim Cottrell reports that:
    TFT DF nozzle at 100 psi inlet pressure has 72-psi of exit pressure with a flow of 150-gpm representing a measured reaction of 63 pounds.

    He then reports that the Akron Turbo Jet nozzle at 100-psi inlet pressure has 94-psi of exit pressure with a flow of 150-gpm representing a measured reaction of 73 pounds.

    So yes the Akron Turbo Jet in this test done by Jim Cottell of TFT does have more reaction for the same flow. WHY? Because the nozzle had a higher exit pressure even though the inlet pressure was 100-psi. Why? It would appear that the Akron nozzle only had 6 pounds of loss internally while the TFT had 28-psi loss internally.

    Knowing from what I have read in numerous articles, 14% less reaction is not worth talking about. What is though, is the fact that the Akron in the above tests would clearly have a harder hitting stream compared to the TFT because it maintained more exit pressure which is velocity and did so at the same flow.

    "High Speed streams reach farther and hit harder" says Jim Cottrell.

    Yes they do, "AT THE SAME FLOW"!

    YES I KNOW THAT THE TURBO JET IS NOT THE ASSAULT, or is the Assault simply a repackaged product? I don't know.

    Depending on how you want to process the data you could say the TFT had less reaction than the Akron at the same flow without mentioning the Akron had the harder & Farther hitting stream.

    OR

    You could say the Akron had a harder & farther hitting stream than the TFT without mentioning it had more reaction.

    Just pointing out the simplistics of how the whole truth can sometimes not be shared.

    I commend Jim Cottrell for his reporting and letting the reader make up his own mind. Thanks Jim!

    Kirk Allen


  8. #8
    LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The asault is a fixed flow nozzle. The turbojet is a multi-flow nozzle

    Just pointing out the simplistics of how the whole truth can sometimes not be shared

    Kinda like a JSA test that the folks at the academy say never happened, they say it was a one sided demo.


    Hey FIREHOUSE, Kirk is at it again! One nozzle company attacking another.

    Last time you sent him this:

    "...found to be in violation of the Terms of Use of the Firehouse.Com
    Forums.

    Promotion of a specific product or brand by a representative or related
    entity is strictly forbidden in the Firehouse.Com Forums, as is attacking
    the same by another company or individual associated with a specific
    manufactuer. Please refrain from this activitiy in the future to continue participating in the Forums."

    Well here he goes again.

  9. #9
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry,

    I must comment on this part of your post.

    5. Best reason to buy a fixed flow nozzle? The dummying of the fire service. No one has a clue about flow, hydraulics, pump operations etc. So this way they can pump anything, water will fall out of the nozzle and everyone will be happy because it is easier.

    Just because I don't use your preferred type of nozzle (NOTE:No name brand mentioned) doesn't mean I have no understanding of hydraulics, flow capabilities or pump operations. We tested our hose and nozzles with pressure gauges and flow meters. We did not and continue to not trust the little flow charts the manufacturers give. We know what our lines are doing at a specified pressure.

    Automatic nozzles continue to lead the dumbing down of the fire service. Hydraulics mean nothing if all you do is pump a max flow pressure. I consistantly see FF's gating down lines whenever higher flows are pumped. I now await your tired hose handling speech. Just so you don't think we can't handle our hoselines we have no problems at flows up to 325 on our 2 inch lines.


  10. #10
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry,

    The only difference between you and KEA on that account is he admits what he is representing and you don't.

    Geez, can we have just a few more TFT ads please. Even if you don't mention the name every knows you are a TFT guy.

    Personally I think the problem is your argumentative attitude and the feeling if it ain't your way it's wrong.

    Have a nice day.

    FyredUp

  11. #11
    KEA
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    So their is no confusion on my post:

    FyredUp, E33, DAnderson:
    My goal was to simply bring thought to the table on how a good report done by Jim Cottell "COULD" be used by someone to not expose the whole truth.

    In this case, it was "I" that gave the example of how that can happen. I'm not implying that anyone did this, just how easy it can happen.

    It's kinda like learning how to understand one of Clintons speaches. How do you define IS?

    I commended Jim Cottrell with TFT and at no time implied that he or anyone did not expose the whole truth.

    You will notice that no where in my post has a Promotion of a specific product or brand by myself occured nor was there an attack
    by me against another company, product or individual associated with a specific manufactuer.

    In the event my post offended anyone I'm sorry, that was not my intent. If members of this forum would prefer that I not participate simply e-mail your request for such and I will stop, provided that is what the majority of the members want.

    Thanks for your time
    Stay Safe
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc.

  12. #12
    LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "Just because I don't use your preferred type of nozzle (NOTE:No name brand mentioned) "

    You mean compressed air foam through a ball shut off?

    "doesn't mean I have no understanding of hydraulics, flow capabilities or pump operations. We tested our hose and nozzles with pressure gauges and flow meters. We did not and continue to not trust the little flow charts the manufacturers give. We know what our lines are doing at a specified pressure."

    Yhe dummying of the fire service was not directed at you. How could Fornell write a book and survey the service and find the average pump pressure range of 100 to 125 psi. No mnufacturers charts suggested anything that low. The fire service did it to itself. It was easier. Could you share with us one little flow chart that is not based upon either UL or by the book hydraulics? Is it a conspiracy?

    "Automatic nozzles continue to lead the dumbing down of the fire service."

    So tell me, how do you supply a fixed flow tip on a ladder tower that is constantly adjusted? Ever seen stacked tips changed in the heat of battle? Willthe nozzle you use adjust in theevent of a blown line or loss flow. My ball shutoff will.

    "Hydraulics mean nothing if all you do is pump a max flow pressure."

    If we did that you'd have the flow needed.

    " I consistantly see FF's gating down lines whenever higher flows are pumped. Just so you don't think we can't handle our hoselines we have no problems at flows up to 325 on our 2 inch lines. "

    I see you have not problem holding them and firefighters have no trouble gating them down. SO the correct answer is to change nozzles. Hmmm, if we've got people on this forum who say they pump 100 to 125 what will they pump with a new nozzle? If you're not having problem flowing what is the point?

    Well you've posted your opinion thenyou say it is wrong for me to post mine. You infer I like a brand of nozzle but can't back it up. DO I sell nozzles? Do I tell people what to buy? Ask Scott if I ever suggested a nozzle in his town. Gee, 40 some fire trucks just in his state that will be at least 300 nozzles. Should be pretty easy to make you case, if you're right.

    If you have a problem with automatics, it ain't just a TFT thing, why do all the manufacturuers make them? Why does NFPA specifiy them in some applications? Why do huge cities use them, Dallas, Syracuse, Los Angeles County, Seattle, Miami, Philly, Las Vegas, FT Worth, Houston.. probabl because what I said earlier every nozzle is putting out fire somewhere.

    If you want to know what I think read what I write.

  13. #13
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry,

    Tell me how a ball shut-off valve can adjust to fluctuations in flow and pressure. If it is that simple, all my nozzles have ball shut-offs.

    As for your response to KEA about the Assault nozzle and Jim Cottrel...I went back and read that again. Geez, now he can't mention any brand of nozzle? When did you set that rule? I didn't see him promote or attack anything. He merely restated what Jim Cottrel said.

    I also will respond to what you said in response to me about being able to state your opinion. You can state your opinion all you want. You just don't have to attack everyone who has a differing opinion. You state repeatedly about so and so using whatever they want, then attack anyone who tries to discuss the nozzles they use.

    As I said in the other forum that tried to discuss nozzles, I have grown weary of your constant harangue on this whole subject, no matter what the forum.

    So have fun,

    FyredUp


  14. #14
    LHS
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Gee, you claim to know my nozzle preferences and that I sell and endorse product, then you ask "Tell me how a ball shut-off valve can adjust to fluctuations in flow and pressure. If it is that simple, all my nozzles have ball shut-offs. "

    It is called compressed air foam.

    It doesn't care about your water problem, psi, or hose line length, one EP works for all lines and streams.


  15. #15
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    Akron Assault Nozzles. How do they work?

    It was a simple question, and it has been answered...a long time ago.

    ------------------
    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.



  16. #16
    Administrator
    Join Date
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    Post

    Attention Forum Posters

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    Not only have several manufactuers recently posted messages, others have assumed 'false identities' in essense to promote their product or site.

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    [This message has been edited by WebTeam (edited February 08, 2000).]

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