1. #1
    Smokeetr4
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question Intake valve- Which side ?

    In my department we have had the intake ( Jaffery )valve on the drivers side of the vehicle for as long as I have worked here. Recently one of the other firefighters on the other shift began switching the valve to the officers side. His reasoning is from some article he read. It said that having the valve on the drivers side was "Unsafe". This has become a real shift war. Whats your thoughts? Who's right?

  2. #2
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    One is allegedly a tripping hazard. However, if you don't propery set the dump valve within 10 psi of use pressure it can blow off and hurt someone on either side.

  3. #3
    res7cue
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    We keep the intake valve on the officer side mainly for safety reasons.

    It also keeps the area around the pump panel area open and to me it seems to provide for a more efficient operation. This is especially true when you have multiple lines coming of or into the pump panel.

    You don't have to step over/ around the line, don't have to worry about getting a bath (unless it's Satuday) when your supply pumper exceeds the relief valve setting and so on.

    We've tried both and the valve on the officers side works the best, no questions asked.

    ------------------

  4. #4
    hfdfao
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    We have one on both sides, and on 1 truck we have a rear intake also. The rear intake is nice, but I prefer having at the pump panel so I can make sure I still have my hydrant water.(cavitation, etc.)

    Dave

    ------------------
    May your vents be leeward, your searches be negative, and your overhaul complete......
    FTM-PTB-EGH

  5. #5
    Billy Mott
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    I was taught that the reason for the water supply to come in next to the pump operator was so that they could keep a foot on the line to keep track of the residual pressure in the hose. I guess this was before pressure/compound guages or maybe you should'nt always believe what guages tell/show you. However with the hose on the other side of the truck it certainly frees up alot a space, but now it takes the operator away from his pump panel at usually a very critical time when he is just in the process of getting the initial lines operating, to open his own intake or at least an additional person to do the same task as what 1 operator could do before by themselves. If you believe in SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY, then I guess you would have to go with the opposite side. But if you want to go with always knowing what's going on as a pump operator your back with it on your side. Boy, who opened this can of worms?

  6. #6
    JimDWFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    For years our Piston Intake Relief Valves for the 5" hose was located on the pump panel side. Then a couple of years ago they (higher ups) moved it to the officers side. They said it was to make it easier for drafting operations ( we rarely draft ). They also said it was not safe because of the pressure coming into the pump. Our normal hydrant pressure is 50-70 psi. But when we use our crosslays ( 130 psi for car fires and 200 psi for foam operation ) i quess these pressures at head level are ok to do.

    I think having the valve at the pump panel gives the operator better control of pressure surges.

    Just my two cents!

    Stay Safe!!!

  7. #7
    wofd1
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    Post

    My 2 cents worth. we have had ours on right side (officers side) of truck since 1993. The only draw back we have ever came acroos was working at a barn burner and the exhaust from the truck burnt 5" supply line coming into it, the hose was about 3 feet away at the time. stay safe

  8. #8
    ALSfirefighter
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    Post

    I was also taught that it is a good idea to keep a hand on the supply line. You can feel that LDH collapse a little sooner than the gauge will pick up or the RPM's go crazy. Also I have to agree w/JimD, LDH now required they have locks on them, I know that some of the older stock didn't unless you spec'd for them. But if you ensure its locked into place, then I don't see how its that unsafe at most hydrant pressures (for me that is). But like he also said, we pressurize small diameters to twice an intakes pressure. The only reason why I've seen a few around here with it on the right side was for those who worry about the releif spring opening and getting them a little wet. But for me I like being able to see and feel my supply line.

    ===========================================
    The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

  9. #9
    wofd1
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Also forgot to add to last post. With top mount pump you cant keep your hand on hose.

  10. #10
    Smokeetr4
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Playing devils advocate here, I would like to hear from those of you that operate with the valve on the officers side. If you are already flowing water from the tank to your handlines and then complete the hookup to a hydrant, won't you have to reduce the pressure to the lines when you transition from tank water to hydrant water since the valve is on the hydrant side and the tank to pump is on the drivers side. How do you perform this operation smoothly?

    Stay safe--

  11. #11
    Buck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    "won't you have to reduce the pressure to the lines when you transition from tank water to hydrant water since the valve is on the hydrant side and the tank to pump is on the drivers side. How do you perform this operation smoothly?" Quote by Smokeetr4

    If you set the releif valve on the pump you don't worry about it.

  12. #12
    148champ
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    Post

    Intake valves are being placed all around apparatus anymore. i've seen some engines with intales on both sides; front and also rear!!! Lots of rigs have various combinations thereof!! Many rigs still have intake valve on driver's side for convenience if side mount pump. with top mount pump, really doesn't matter which side-usually have them on both sides anymore. just as long as discharge line is never next to pump operator!!! That can be a real recipe for disaster!!! most top mount pumps utilize LDH discharges on both sides plumbed off larger than normal piping.

  13. #13
    BLACKSHEEP-1
    Firehouse.com Guest

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    WHEN WE FIRST WENT TO 5IN HOSE IT WAS PLACED ON THE OFF SIDE BECAUSE OF SAFETY REASONS, AND WITH SOME JUSTIFICATION, WE HAVE HAD THIS HOSE BLOW OFF THE SIDE OF THE PANEL AND INJURE SPECTATORS. THE WAY TO SOLVE THIS IS A: REPLACE GASKETS SO THEY STAY TIGHT.B: USE A SWIVEL AT THE INTAKE. OR C: USE LOCKING COUPLINGS. ONCE THAT ISSUE WAS HANDLED I MUCH PREFFER THE INTAKE TO BE ON THE D/E SIDE. THE REASON FOR THIS IS THAT AS THE DRIVER OPENS THE INTAKE VALVE HE CAN MONITOR HOW FAST IT OPENS, AND (IN LONG LAYS 5IN CAN PUSH A LOT OF AIR), HE CAN HIT THE PRIMER AS THE VALVE IS OPENED. BACK IN THE DAY, IF YOU WERE BY YOURSELF, YOU HAD TO OPEN THE INTAKE AND HAUL BUTT AROUND TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TRUCK TO NAIL THE PRIMER, OTHERWISE YOU GOT THIS BIG HICCUP RUNNING THROUGH YOUR PUMP. (AND ATTACK LINES). I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO SEE AN INTAKE ON BOTH SIDES, THIS WAY IF THE FIRST ENGINE GOES IN FOR A FAST ATTACK(AS IS OFTEN THE CASE AROUND HERE ON RESIDENTIAL FIRES) THE SECOND DUE CAN LAY PAST THE FIRST ENGINE AND "PULL BACK" HOSE TO THE INTAKE REGARDLESS OF WHICH SIDE OF THE STREET THE TRUCK IS PARKED ON. THIS IS A VERY FAST WAY TO ATTACK THE FIRE AND RECIEVE A SUPPLY LINE AT THE SAME TIME.

  14. #14
    firecat1524
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    The piston intake is on the operator's side of the truck...and we try as much as possible to pull the crosslays off the officer's side. I don't find that the supply hose is much of a trip hazard as I do the preconnects a strangulation hazard. the main reason is the way our pump panel is set up....usually we start an attack off the tank..then connect our supply line. Once you are done with the initial setup...very rarely do you have to go back to that side of the pump panel.

  15. #15
    capt311
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    On my trucks there on the right side of the truck because if the hose blows they won't get hurt or even worse!!!!!

  16. #16
    griff
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    I prefer to keep the intake valve on the officers side. If anything is going to happen I don't want to be standing beside it when it does.

  17. #17
    ntvilleff
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    Most of the our trucks have intakes on three sides. If I'm pumping from a hydrant,I like to use the intake on the drivers side. I like to keep my leg leaning up against the hose for the reason alsfirefighter stated. I can feel the pressure drop in the hose before the gauge reads it. Before you connect your supply hose, give it a twist in the opposite direction of the torque when charged, it won't have a tendency to back off. Since our hydrants only run 50 - 70 psi, I'm not that worried if it blows. It might scare the hell out of me and I'll get very wet. If I were relay pumping, the intake would definitely be on the opposite side. Discharge is always on the opposite side.

    [This message has been edited by ntvilleff (edited 06-18-2001).]

  18. #18
    phxfyr
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    Our new apparatus are all Salsbury's. The design includes a pump panel mounted in the rear compartment on the driver's side of the apparatus. The intakes and most discharges are mounted on the rear of the apparatus.

    While many in the department were at first skepticle of the idea, its turned out to be a blessing. The pump position allows the engineer to see whats on the other side of the truck more easily than a mid-mount and is easier to deal with than the "on-again off-again" exercise that you get on a cross-mount pump. The intake on the back allows the engineer to see the hose at all times but is safer and keeps the pump panel clear of obstructions.

  19. #19
    Firekatz04
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    Post

    My personal preference is intake on the pump side so I can keep my leg/knee against it. I prefer having the preconnects come off on the officers side to keep them out of the way, BUT, they are high enough so they aren't a problem watching gauges if they come off on the drivers side.

  20. #20
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    We have jaffery valves on both sides of our engines. My preference is to connect to the panel side so I may keep track of my residual pressure. This is especially important when pumping from an ever changing rural supply (water tenders). Sure the compound gauge is made for this purpose, however I have squeeze plenty of needed water from a supply hose that read close to 0 psi.
    Fight Fire Agressivly but Provide for Safety First!

    Be Safe!

  21. #21
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    The dept. I used to run on had the intake valve on the drivers' side. So I was used to that setup. The dept. I am currently with has it on the passenger side. So I've used it both ways.

  22. #22
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    On my engine (1250 2 stage top mount)one of the first thing i did as a officer was to move the intake valve to the passenger side.Many people said "what in the hell are you doing?" we draft out of ponds most of the time and 9 times out of 10 the dry hydrant ends up on the drivers side. It is a hell of alot easier to line up than trying to line up on the passenger side.And you don't have to take your valve off every time.

  23. #23
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    Food for thought, I have done some calculations on catastrophic failures on 5" LDH . The way the hose is constructed the most likely place to occur is at the coupling. Here a few examples comparing 3" line with 5" line.

    3" hose with 40 PSI at failure = 282 pounds of force
    5" hose with 40 PSI at failure = 782 pounds of force
    3" hose with 70 PSI at failure = 494 pounds of force
    5" hose with 70 PSI at failure = 1372 pounds of force
    3" hose with 120 PSI at failure = 847 pounds of force
    5" hose with 120 PSI at failure = 2352 pounds of force
    3" hose with 150 PSI at failure = 1059 pounds of force
    5" hose with 150 PSI at failure = 2940 pounds of force

    100' dry section of 5" hose weighs approximately 106 pounds with couplings is weighs approximately 114 pounds.

    In 100' section with water there is approximately 102 gallons of water weighing approximately 856 pounds.

    Just the weight of the water and the hose the total weight of 100' of 5" hose is 1000 pounds.

    The intake values I have been exposed to are the piston type valve with and adjustable relief valve attached.
    The relief valve is adjustable from 100 PSI to 200 PSI. The other valve is the butterfly which does not a relief valve.

    It is my experience with the piston valve that it must be open slightly before charging the supply line. If this is not done the valve will not open because there is too much force on the valve. If you open the valve slightly the pressure is even on both sides of the valve and it is very easy to open. The first time we tried to use this valve on a hydrant with 120 PSI static pressure we could not open the valve with the handle, but be the ingenious firefighters we are we tried using a pry bar. We were unsuccessful in opening the valve, but we sure broke the handle. A lesson learned.

    The butterfly valve was a problem because our water system is very old we were getting a lot of grit in the valve and this caused serous leaks in the valve. Also this valve does not have a relief valve and this is dangerous when using LDH hose.

    As for using LDH hose when pumping a ladder I believe this is not practical. The LDH hose is tested a 200 PSI and NFPA states you should not pump it over 185 PSI. We did some flow testing on a 100' ladder with a pre plumed waterway, our goal was to flow 1000 GPMs. To accomplish this we had to pump 245 PSI at the base of the ladder to overcome the friction loss, nozzle pressure and elevation. We also did flow testing on our tower ladders to flow 1500 GPMs. To accomplish this we had to pump 245 PSI at the base of the to overcome the friction loss, nozzle pressure, and elevation. This does not include the friction loss in the supply line.

    Please commit
    Glenn

  24. #24
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    [ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: capt311 ]

  25. #25
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    We have the intake valves on both sides. You shouldn't have to take the time/man power to fish the hose under the rig or run it around if you have a hydrant on the opposite side. If you are worried about a hose rupture you aren't testing your hose properly. And if this is true then a burst hose has just as much chance of hurting someone on the other side of the rig too. If it gets in the way of the pump opp. then what is he doing if the attack cross-lays are off his side also? Hoses are kind of important in our business. He should be standing on the side platform anyway. If your guys are tripping over them where do they think the water comes from? They should be aware that hoses are comming out of that big truck and they should watch their step. And as for Blacksheep1 and the air in 5" that comes up when charged... the valve should have bleeders on them before you even open the valve so using the primer on whatever side it is is a moot point.
    "What makes a person run into a building others are running out of?...Character."- Dennis Smith

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