1. #1
    GBordas
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Use of Booster Tank Water?

    I have read that a lot of departments rely on the booster tank as their PRIMARY means of water supply for the first stretch until a hydrant is secured by the Chauffeur and/or a Hydrantman.

    It has been my understanding that the Booster Tank water should be used as a SECONDARY means of water supply in case of emergencies if there isn't a secure water source such as a OOS hydrant, a delay in the hydrant connection, supply failure, no hydrant, at a location where a hydrant connection will not be necessary such as at a car fire or IDLH where the fire has taken control of the primary means of egress and heavy fire needs to be knocked down quickly by use of the deck gun until the hydrant connection is made.

    The time it takes to make the stretch should be plenty of time for the Chauffeur and the Hydrantman to make the connection and get water rather than relying on the Booster as a primary means of water supply.

    Your thoughts? Do you have policies on the use of the tank water?

    [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: Ladder1Group1 ]</p>

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA
    Posts
    985

    Default

    Since we don't have any hydrants out here, the booster tank is the ONLY means of water supply until the tanker gets there. Believe me, I much rather have a hydrant every coupla hundred feet.
    Bryan Beall
    Silver City, Oklahoma USA

  3. #3
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    fayette ny
    Posts
    3

    Default

    TANK WATER? YA GOTTA USE IT THAT IS WHY THEY ARE ON THE APPARATUS RIGHT?

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Default

    At 2000' average hydrant spacing, we *never* lay in with the 1st due engine. And the vast majority of our area is un-hydranted so we operate the same in either district.

    Our typical 1st alarm assigment has 4 Engine-Tanks carrying 4400 gallons of water for initial attack and to begin a shuttle, and 3 Engine/Hose-Tenders carrying 10,000' of 5" to establish laid lines as needed.

    1st in Engine-Tank (usually a 1500gpm/1200gwt/1200'4" w/Class A foam) will go direct to fire attack.

    Engine carries is 1500gpm/700gwt with 5000' of 5" that normally reverse lays to water.

    2nd due ET is usually a 1000gpm/1200gwt with 1200' 5". Assists with finishing hose lays (we'll split a long driveway -- Engine lays from entrance to water; 2nd ET lays from entrance to fire), and provides immediate resupply to the attack ET.

    3rd & 4th Engine Tanks blow off their tank loads & begin shuttling, if neccessary. If the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th are shuttling, depending on distance, they usually provide 200-300gpm sustained. More & Larger tankers available if needed.

    2nd & 3rd Engine/Hose-Tenders are available to help finish very long lays or establish a second lay -- as we might do for a commercial/agricultural fire.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    West Jordan, Utah, USA
    Posts
    51

    Default

    Wow! I'm impressed. I always wondered if relay's were ever used on a regular basis. We have a standing SOP that if smoke is showing we take our own hydrant. If nothing showing, we will use the tank if need be while the 2nd in company lays a line to us from the hydrant. This usually works really well.
    Firefighter/Paramedic Ron Sanders
    Midvale Fire Department
    Medic Ambulance 22 - A Platoon

    Firefighters, Walking where the Devil Danced!

    This is simply my opinion and does not represent the opinion or view of my employer(s) or any department/agency to which I belong.

    Personal Website: http://RonSanders.Biz Check it Out!

  6. #6
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Fort Smith, AR USA
    Posts
    14

    Default

    I wouldn't say it is our "primary", but we do use it. We rely on our tank water for what we call "quick water". It is usually enough to supply a single line for maybe two minutes, and this additional time is then used hooking up for hydrant operations. We use LDH and our sop calls for flushing the plug before you hook-up,(keeps debris out of the pump), so if you grab a bad plug, the second-in can be notified to bring a line from their side. You may look bad for a sec, but you are still fightin' the fire. It works for us, so it might be a consideration for ya'll.
    As Always, Stay Low and Stay Safe.

  7. #7
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Bristol, Pa
    Posts
    19

    Default

    Our policy on a confirmed job is for the first Engine to establish a water supply. This could mean stopping at a hydrant and laying in or hand stretching to a plug. Which ever is easier. Either way we always start our attack with tank water.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    911WACKER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Waverly, NY
    Posts
    184

    Default

    We also have no hydrants, first engine goes directly to attack and next due is 3,000 gallon tanker w/500 gpm pump, this truck nurses the attack engine until a shuttle or relay can be established. Since we statred this technique about 5 years ago we have yet to run out of water before the next in tanker and engine arrive. If a large fire flow is needed we can call the ldh task force which brings 5 engines w/ over 1 mile of 5" to supply a long relay, this coupled whith the tankers will be all the water we will ever need at the present time.

    Our 2 nieghboring departments have hydrants both of them lay in from plug on working fire s with first in engine, nothing showing second engine takes the hydrant, this has seemed to work well in the past.
    Firefighter/NREMT-P/Public Safety Diver
    May we ride into the darkness only to return as safe as we started!!

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    e1ffmedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Posts
    8

    Default

    We use our tank water for the primary attack. The second in engine will lay the supply if needed. With 750 gallons of water in the tank (1000 on two of our engines)you've got 7 minutes of water out of the tank. Second in engine is no more than five minutes out, more like three to four. Cut that by the minute or so to stretch the attack line and you have time to wait on the line. Also, 500 ft. hydrant spacing residential and the medics that respond out of the station with the first in pumper can hand stretch a short lay off the first in pumper. Seems to work.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Wheaton IL
    Posts
    1,765

    Default

    Our rigs are set up for reverse lay, so we almost always lead out. If in the opinion of the first in officer the fire can be extinguished or a good hit put on it, and the extra time to lead out would endanger lives or let the fire get to big we can use tank water.
    We have found ourselves using the tank more and more because of the quick hit we can put on the fire. It all comes down to training and experience.

    Stay safe

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    PFDE4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Portland,Maine,USA
    Posts
    50

    Default

    Our typical setup is for the first due engine directly to the fire building, ( leaving room for the ladder ) and the second due engine takes care of the water supply. However it is the officers call if he decides the situation calls for the the first due engine to lay itself a feeder.
    Often the hydrants are close enough so that the engineer on the second due engine can assist the first due engine in stretching a short feeder to a nearby hydrant.
    We run between 500 and 750 gallons on all our engines, plenty of water for initial operations on most fires.

    You mentioned deck gun use off a booster tank. IMHO it is an all or nothing attack. If the fire isnt completly exstinguished and there is a delay in getting a reliable water supply you are left sitting there watch the fire grow with nothing to stop it.

    [ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: PFDE4 ]

  12. #12
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    South Central, PA, USA
    Posts
    84

    Default

    We sue the booster tank water as primary water supply ONLY until a dedicated supply is established via hydrant.

    Once that is accomplished, it is SOP to top the bosster off so that it is full in case you loose your hyrdant line.

    Too many operators dump their booster and NEVER fill it after they get the hydrant line established. BAD practice!!!
    These views/ opinions are my own and not those of my employer/ department.

  13. #13
    OLE
    OLE is offline
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    IA
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Always fill booster tank right after hydrant is hooked is drilled in operator's mind. Yes, there are some problems with using booster tank first. In our case the biggest problem would be the "switch over" from booster tank to hydrant supply. If you're making an interrior attack and "SUDDENLY" run out of water without letting your crew know (God forbid) Sh!^ could really hit the fan!!!! That's what scares me...... Always tell the IC when you're switching over so interior crew will hopefully hear and have a heads up on the situation. We run forward from hydrant to fire so by the time we're pumping, the steamer fittings should be hooked and everything ready to go.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    AC1503's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    325

    Default

    The steamer should be gated and have a dump valve & bleeder. Charge the supply line, bleed the air, open the gate to send hydrant water to the pump, and then close the tank to pump valve. Unless your steamer in ungated, there should never be a reason to lose water at the knob when changing from tank to hydrant supply.

  15. #15
    OLE
    OLE is offline
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    IA
    Posts
    36

    Default

    DD-

    You're right as far as shouldn't lose water "switching over". BUT I guess it COULD happen that the supply line isn't ready to go by the time booster tank dry! On the fire ground anything that can happen usually does......

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    You puttin' crews in without a radio?If you're running out of water tell interior that.If they don't respond,sound the evac.and get em out.We run tank water all the time but our first due has 1500 gal on.T.C.

  17. #17
    Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    35

    Default

    tank water is there if you need it..and if at a working fire your officer calls for water before you as the chauffer or the hydrant man can complete the hook up ,then by all means use what that water is there for and charge the line..chauffers remember to fill the tank as soon as you have established a water supply..

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    What's a hydrant? T.C.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    CAPN22's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Blackfalds, AB, CAN
    Posts
    186

    Default

    Pumper drops man and line at hydrant.
    Proceeds to scene
    Attack teams grab lines and head in.
    Attack lines charged and operated from tank.
    Switch to Hydrant as soon as possible.
    Top up water tank.
    NEVER CLOSE THE TANK TO PUMP VALVE.
    Tank can be used to supplement water supply if hydrant feed needs to be exceeded momentarly.
    Unit will also switch to tank if hydrant feed is momentarly interupted or lost.

  20. #20
    blackb16
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Default

    OR,

    Pumper stops at hydrant and engineer gets out hooks up to hydrant turns hydrat on, engages the automatic hydrant valve gets back in pumper and drives to fire.(that way all of your firefighters get to the scene at the same time to fight fire and save lives)

    Attack teams grab lines and head in.

    Attack lines charged and operated from tank.

    Supply line is coupled to pump suction

    Hydrant switch is automatic, apparatus has a Pre-con valve and no check valve between pump and tank suction. (As soon as the water from the hydrant gets to the pumper it automatically supplies the pump and fill the water tank without engineer intervention.)

    (No problem with engineer filling water tank and robbing water from attack crew then shutting it off causing a hammer on attack lines. )

    NEVER CLOSE THE TANK TO PUMP VALVE.
    Tank can be used to supplement water supply if hydrant feed needs to be exceeded momentarly.

    Unit will also switch to tank if hydrant feed is momentarly interupted or lost.

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    firefighter26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Sooke, B.C.
    Posts
    945

    Default

    Easy enough.

    Our on board water is used for the initial attack. As soon as the tanker gets on scene its crew, and anyone else not doing anything, sets up the portable tanks so it can dump its 3300 gallons. Once the tanks are full, the engine switches over and supplies from there. Also, the on board tank is refilled and used as a reserve should the portable tanks run dry before the tanker makes it back. The pump operator lets the IC know which source is being used for water and how much is remaining. Should the tanks portable tanks run dry, the operator switches over to the reserve water and announces it on the radio. The IC can then determine if the tanker will make it back in time, or to start pulling the attack teams back or out if the situation dictates.
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

  22. #22
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Savannah, Georgia, Usa
    Posts
    7

    Default

    I have two views on this. When I was on a larger volunteer fire department our policy was to grab our own hydrant unless we heard the second engine go Enroute. Then with the Small Rural Fire Department we had no Hydrants, we had a 1500 gallon tanker and nearest Mutual Aid was 30 away. I was told that we either put it out with the 750 in the booster or we lost the structure.
    Charlie Baker
    Firefighter/First Responder

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    27

    Default

    Our policy is that the first due pump is to secure a water supply. That may mean connecting to a hydrant and then starting an attack or if the second in pump is close enough having them make the hydrant connection and supplying water to the first pump. Either way it is the pump operators discretion to use the booster tank or not. They are directed however to try and fill the tank ASAP after using it in case an interuption in the hydrant supply occurs. For rural fires our first in pump uses its 1000gal tank supply to provide exposure protection while setting up a drafting operation. We rarely end up in an offensive situation in rural areas due to long response times.

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    On the subject of never shutting the tank valve,that may be all well an fine on a new apparatus but if you don't shut off the valve on older trucks,you're gonna have a wet hose bed!No check valves. T.C.

  25. #25
    MFD
    MFD is offline
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Maplewood,Oh
    Posts
    441

    Default

    we have to use our booster tank to start because when we get to the fire we'll drop the drop tank dump the tanker then run lines(from the time it takes to dump the tanker and for the guys to get to the bar and hook up the line from the drop tank to the pumper we're running off the booster tank.usually it's not much 100-200 gallons. unless the guy hooking it up a compete idiot .we don't have any regular hydrants out in our districts we got dry hydrants for Ponds and rivers. Hey by the way if you wanna get back at a F.D. near where you guys are use Hard Suction on town hydrant . whats even worst is my chief did that hahahhaha. wanna talk bout ruin a hydrant. but we know nothing about it. .

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register